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01:32:59  <jwalden>U+2029 PARAGRAPH SEPARATOR begins a new line in JS even if it doesn't display that way, so I call shenanigans on the endpoint there
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03:10:41  <rkirsling>> Are gists the most misappropriated blogging platform ever?
03:10:41  <rkirsling>was the part that made me laugh the most tbqh
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03:19:19  <Sirisian>devsnek, Stuff like that is driving me a bit insane determining if my grammar changes don't create problems. :| The number of weird expansions of the grammar rules that no one would ever write are amazing.
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03:50:50  <Sirisian>Also I'm very glad that [] is basically only a valid token sequence for array initialization. Would be a headache if calling arrays with undefined was allowed.
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04:01:37  <Sirisian>Also since I have to learn how to write algorithms soon for my proposal. http://sirisian.github.io/ecmascript-types/#prod-MemberExpression If you have grammar rules for parsing something like: https://github.com/sirisian/ecmascript-types#array-views It makes more sense to just write the grammar rule as an argument list? I noticed all the built in functions don't assert their argument lengths. Object.getOwnPropertyDescriptor(o,
04:01:37  <Sirisian>'a', 1, 2, 3); Seems like everything is kept dynamic. Seems strange to me to do the same to the array view syntax though as it's not "real" function.
04:03:25  <Sirisian>What I mean is it's not something that can be reassigned by the user like most other functions.
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17:44:16  <jwalden>hrm
17:44:30  <jwalden>TIL about "hamburger hill" as a metaphor
17:44:36  <jwalden>https://github.com/tc39/proposal-temporal/issues/98
17:53:45  <devsnek>i find it unlikely that builtin modules will move forward in the next 5 years
17:54:19  <ljharb>i'd say the same, but i'd stop before "in"
17:55:40  <devsnek>i'd assume some future set of delegates will in some way agree to either have it or not have it
17:58:01  <annevk>What is blocking them?
17:58:18  <jwalden>"consensus"
17:58:39  <jwalden>tho I bet the issue of polyfillability probably looms too
18:00:12  <annevk>Sure, I guess I’m looking for a pointer explaining both sides trying to get on that hill
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18:04:31  <ljharb>from what i can see, if all the polyfill and security constraints are met, then all the advantages over globals go away
18:04:42  <ljharb>at which point, i don't see how the feature would carry its weight
18:04:50  <jwalden>I will admit to not having paid full attention to the builtin modules goo to really expound on it well
18:05:11  <jwalden>globals entail a smallish cost in memory per global object
18:05:27  <jwalden>thousands of cuts, and all
18:05:30  <ljharb>and either way, i have yet to see a language-level solution that allows for the polyfill and security use cases (import maps doesn't count)
18:05:37  <ljharb>(because it's not language level)
18:05:55  <ljharb>jwalden: they could be lazily loaded on use, tho. i think that's how some engines do Intl
18:05:56  <devsnek>jwalden: v8 recently(ish) used some fancy memory mapping and snapshotting to de-duplicate that
18:06:29  <jwalden>ljharb: that's as to the underlying Intl data, not as to the binding functions -- or at least that's how SpiderMonkey does it
18:06:56  <ljharb>jwalden: i guess i don't see why the first reference to `Intl` couldn't lazily create the same thing that `import from 'intl'` could
18:07:32  <devsnek>https://v8.dev/blog/embedded-builtins
18:07:35  <ljharb>but certainly, that'd at least be a benefit of builtin modules (in the world i described above, where polyfill/security needs are met)
18:09:34  <jwalden>fancy memory mapping is *possible* for sure, but it rather constrains implementations and is a bit of a complexity tax, definitely
18:10:52  <annevk>An idea I quite liked was using builtin modules as a way to expose the world to Wasm
18:11:08  <devsnek>wdym
18:11:45  <annevk>E.g., as a way for Wasm to get hold of fetch() or some such
18:12:18  <devsnek>isn't that just anyref
18:12:56  <annevk>If you want to forever require going through JS, sure
18:13:15  <devsnek>how else would js builtins be exposed to wasm
18:14:06  <annevk>Builtin modules?
18:14:15  <devsnek>so like
18:14:26  <devsnek>add a new api to wasm for the embedder to define builtin modules
18:14:31  <devsnek>which wasm modules can then use
18:20:52  <annevk>ljharb: thanks for the clear explanation btw
18:29:50  <ljharb>annevk: np, i don't like being so doomsay on it, but so many people seem so (perhaps blindly) bearish on it :-/
18:30:12  <ljharb>presumably wasm already has a way to get at JS globals, right?
18:31:58  <annevk>ljharb: only if you pass them in from JS
18:32:39  <annevk>aiui
18:33:22  <ljharb>annevk: i mean, you can't create a function in wasm in sloppy mode that returns this and invoke it? or use `Function` and invoke it with `'return this'` and invoke the result?
18:33:39  <ljharb>if you can do either of those things then it seems pretty useless to have that restriction in wasm
18:33:42  <devsnek>you can't create a js function in wasm at all
18:33:50  <devsnek>or strings
18:33:54  <ljharb>lol, ok
18:34:09  <ljharb>i mean, it just means a wasm program has to have a js component to provide the global, if it wants it
18:34:10  <devsnek>you could put the chars of return this in memory
18:34:25  <devsnek>then call a function from jsland with the address of those chars
18:34:30  <devsnek>which converts them into a string
18:34:34  <devsnek>and then calls Function()
18:36:25  <ljharb>right, so if it's possible, why force the hoop jumping
18:39:11  <devsnek>🤷
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20:48:04  <bradleymeck>ljharb: because WASM can't do it on its own
20:48:13  <bradleymeck>it remains in principal of least authority
20:52:21  <ljharb>bradleymeck: can't what, expose the global? why not?
20:52:38  <bradleymeck>no way to get a hold of it without someone passing it in
20:52:59  <ljharb>wasm modules can mutate undeniable globals tho
20:53:02  <bradleymeck>even if WASM makes a string, it needs to pass it out and get the global passed back in
20:53:02  <ljharb>like `[].constructor`
20:53:13  <bradleymeck>ljharb: if you pass in a reference to those
20:53:22  <bradleymeck>not available w/o being passed in
20:53:24  <ljharb>i'm confused; so you can't make a JS array in a wasm module?
20:53:40  <bradleymeck>you can, but not without a way of doing so being passed in
20:53:55  <ljharb>interesting, ok
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21:57:42  <devsnek>ljharb: wasm currently only has four first-class types: i32, i64, f32, f64
21:57:48  <ljharb>ah
22:39:26  <TabAtkins>I don't understand what "hamburger hill" means...
22:39:48  <rkirsling>"
22:44:14  <TabAtkins>Informative! ^_^
22:45:54  <TabAtkins>Oh, was that a ditto marker?
22:47:14  <ljharb>i've heard "die on a hill"; google leads me to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Hamburger_Hill for "hamburger hill" but that doesn't help me much
22:52:00  <rkirsling>TabAtkins: yes :P
22:52:35  <rkirsling>is it like, the McMansion or McJob version of dying on a hill?
22:52:49  <rkirsling>(still not sure what that implies but...yeah)
22:59:20  <rkirsling>(also I guess that would be "dying on a McHill" so yeah, I got nothin')
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23:48:04  <bradleymeck>hamburger hill is dying on a hill that causes you to lose some larger battle
23:52:26  <rkirsling>maximum whoosh