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04:20:35  <devsnek>is there any way to access AsyncFromSyncIteratorPrototype
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04:20:44  <devsnek>i've tried various hacky throw techniques but i can't seem to get at it
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04:53:38  <ljharb>devsnek: test262 doesn't seem to know how to get to it https://github.com/tc39/test262/blob/ee3715ee56744ccc8aeb22a921f442e98090b3c1/harness/wellKnownIntrinsicObjects.js#L46-L47
04:53:59  <devsnek>yeah i'm stumped
04:54:40  <devsnek>https://github.com/tc39-transfer/proposal-iterator-helpers/blob/master/polyfill.js#L21
04:55:18  <ljharb>devsnek: btw by line 12 there do you mean this very question?
04:55:23  <ljharb>because it does have GetIterator
04:55:43  <devsnek>ljharb: GetIterator changed in es2019
04:55:57  <devsnek>it returns an IteratorRecord instead of the iterator object itself
04:56:01  <ljharb>will change :-) 2019 isn't out yet
04:56:02  <ljharb>gotcha
04:56:10  <ljharb>https://github.com/ljharb/es-abstract/blob/master/GetIntrinsic.js#L60 i don't know how to get to it yet either, ftr
04:56:14  <devsnek>yeah i'll remove all that stuff when es2019 gets finished up
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05:25:09  <Sirisian>The spec is moving faster it seems. Kind of making me worried.
05:25:50  <ljharb>Sirisian: that seems kind of vague. what are you worried about?
05:26:07  <ljharb>it's improving faster, that's for sure, totally separate from proposals
05:26:16  <Sirisian>yeah
05:26:20  <ljharb>but a lot of that is just "being on github"
05:26:43  <Sirisian>That something will be added that breaks my type proposal for good. I've been keeping an eye on rbuckton's enum proposal and a few other threads lately.
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05:27:27  <Sirisian>This might motivate me to learn how to write algorithms in the spec.
05:28:24  <ljharb>imo i don't think a language addition is going to be the thing that makes types unlikely to ever be added to JS
05:29:13  <ljharb>even to start, any such proposal would likely have to have the enthusiastic endorsement of the flow and TS teams
05:29:55  <ljharb>not trying to discourage you :-) just to set expectations based on what i've observed
05:31:22  <Sirisian>I find it ironic that ECMA's tools are all written in TS :|
05:32:33  <ljharb>that's just the personal choice of some of the various maintainers
05:32:41  <ljharb>node certainly isn't :-)
05:35:14  <devsnek>even if ts and flow agreed, i don't think types would be up for discussion
05:35:27  <devsnek>they don't really make sense at the interpretation level
05:36:21  <ljharb>right, that'd just be a (very difficult) start
05:36:29  <Sirisian>That's one thing I've wondered about for a while. If an interpreter or JIT could meaningful use them.
05:36:47  <Sirisian>meaningfully*
05:37:50  <devsnek>well we have some data on that from asm.js
05:37:57  <devsnek>and the answer seems to be "kind of"
05:38:29  <devsnek>the overhead of parsing and verifying all the types generally is more of a concern than the correctness of the code
05:38:41  <devsnek>since you can move the correctness checks to build time
05:40:05  <Sirisian>https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/strengthen-js/ojj3TDxbHpQ <-- I found this a while ago. It's all I've had to go off of.
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05:41:07  <Sirisian>I don't want to bother him though. He seems busy.
05:41:27  <ljharb>Sirisian: strong mode got dropped, from my understanding, because it didn't provide enough benefit based on actual code on the web
05:42:28  <Sirisian>yeah, the idea of such a mode was debated way before that also. I removed it from my proposal ages ago. There's a good post on esdiscuss on "modes" not being a thing anymore ever.
05:42:36  <devsnek>in today's engines it could have some benefits, but there are still a lot of weird semantics issues
05:42:45  <devsnek>like strong classes interacting with normal mode code
05:51:38  <Sirisian>I'm still not 100% sure I understand the concept of a "strong class". I always think it means like freezing the class and the whole prototype chain such that it's simpler?
05:53:37  <Sirisian>oh right that description says sealed in the link. I created this a while ago. https://github.com/sirisian/ecmascript-types/issues/29 I have no idea how engines work though or how it would/could benefit.
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07:44:35  <Jessidhia>wasn't there a compiler that would compile type declarations into runtime assertions? 🤔
07:51:29  <Jessidhia>`final` and `sealed`'s meanings in Java/C# are likely because it also affects dynamic dispatching (converts dynamic dispatches into static dispatches)
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08:03:26  <Sirisian>My dream is where everything that can is using static dispatches. Also hopefully allowing engines to inline code heavily.
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08:14:45  <Sirisian>bterlson, has anyone brought up changing tables in the spec to CSS grid? There's only 79 of them, so it's probably not a huge deal. They're kind of verbose.
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10:52:18  <annevk>littledan: so basically, private state stays at Stage 3 and is now truly considered the way forward? (re tweets)
10:54:10  <littledan>That's what I would say
10:54:46  <littledan>So, this might strengthen the case for Domenic's per realm brand check proposal
10:55:42  <littledan>I really can't imagine how polyfills would be able to orchistrate non-forgeable cross realm brand checks in practice
10:56:14  <annevk>You have to polyfill Realm allocation too!
10:56:31  <littledan>I mean, cross-global
10:56:31  <annevk>Pointer to that proposal btw?
10:56:41  <annevk>littledan: yeah me too
10:56:52  <littledan>Well, it's more like scattered comments in the WebIDL tracker
10:57:03  <littledan>Probably we should make a more solid proposal
10:58:03  <littledan>Not sure if Ms2ger might be interested...
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11:00:50  <annevk>littledan: I haven't looked at this in a while, but I guess a subclass doesn't get access to private state of the parent?
11:02:08  <annevk>littledan: somehow when we design APIs we do grant ourselves that ability (for host-defined subclasses), but not consumers (for user-defined subclasses), which makes sense, but is a little weird, but I guess it can be explained somehow
11:03:08  <littledan>Well, you can cook yourself up that behavior, it's just a bit obscure. Decorators will improve the ergonomics , and maybe we will have some kind of private declarations for another approach
11:04:00  <littledan>This particular form of decorators got some criticism at TC39 meeting, but my feeling is the committee remains committed to meeting the use cases
11:04:10  <annevk>littledan: okay, glad you're all on it 😃
11:04:17  <littledan>We just might have to make some tweaks
11:04:45  <littledan>(they may be big tweaks, it's unclear at this point)
11:05:04  <littledan>We aren't ready to lay it out in a tweet storm yet, that's for sure
11:05:07  <annevk>It's mostly comforting to know that the object design being done in hosts is considered
11:05:33  <littledan>Yes, very much so. I think a lot of us share a vision that these things be aligned
11:06:21  <littledan>(though I couldn't say everyone believes the current web is JavaScripty...)
11:07:42  <annevk>heh
11:10:20  <littledan>Btw the per-realm brand checks are based on the current, not relevant realm, in that the method closes over the realm, and it's not based on the receiver
11:11:03  <littledan>I'm not sure how we can work out the current vs relevant issue in the web; TC39 is fairly strongly on the "current" side where it makes sense
11:11:29  <littledan>(and so am I, personally)
11:11:48  <littledan>Async methods return a Promise in the current realm
11:12:02  <annevk>I think the main problem is that when you allocate multiple objects through a single allocation you can end up with objects from different realms?
11:12:10  <littledan>When?
11:12:23  <annevk>I think that's what bz demonstrated somewhere
11:14:25  <annevk>Perhaps once JavaScript has native support for multiple realms in an agent it'll feel this more
11:14:25  <littledan>OK, I'll try to find that
11:14:27  <annevk>Or maybe not
11:15:00  <littledan>I am not sure, it depends what we end up for the meaning of multiple realms in an agent
11:15:20  <littledan>There is some discussion of realms sharing a global (in which case I don't actually understand what a realm is)
11:15:20  <annevk>Hopefully it's not incompatible with similar-origin window agents!
11:16:23  <littledan>I will make sure we have this analogy represented when things get more concrete
11:16:50  <annevk>I suspect Mark Miller is involved? He should know...
11:17:26  <littledan>Well, Mark has talked about all sorts of different ideas
11:17:36  <littledan>I don't know which one they want to push forward
11:17:46  <annevk>hah
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16:53:13  <annevk>leobalter: is Float16 still a thing you wanna do?
16:54:18  <annevk>leobalter: it could help with https://github.com/whatwg/html/pull/3882 if added
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17:56:00  <jschoi_>Has there ever been talk within TC39 of standardizing packages made of multiple ES modules, as a way of exposing some modules and hiding others? After all, Class methods can be made private, class methods can be made private, and objects can be exported, but modules today must always be externally visible, even if they’re not meant to be part of a public API...
17:56:31  <jschoi_>Whoops, mistakenly repeated a phrase there.
17:59:04  <devsnek>jschoi_: like a parse mode made up of multiple es modules?
18:02:52  <jschoi_>More like some kind of way of coupling ES module files with a manifest, à la package.json that controls access to its constituent modules. Cf. Java packages. Such a system could allow compression of multiple module files plus a manifest into a single file, à la JAR files, but I’d care most about the module access control.
18:03:52  <devsnek>isn't that just rollup/webpack
18:04:04  * michaelficarrapart
18:05:49  <jschoi_>Yes, those essentially do that. But I was wondering about whether TC39 members have been thinking about standardizing module access control in ES itself, after reading https://github.com/tc39/proposal-dynamic-import/issues/35.
18:06:52  <devsnek>like flipping a flag on a module to say whether it can be imported or not?
18:08:46  <Nimelrian>With Node I usually use index files where I export what I want to be public. I suppose this doesn't work with the regular ESM resolution algorithm?
18:08:59  <jschoi_>Yeah, essentially. Modules declare what things they export and what things they keep private, but there is no way to keep a module itself private to within its library, whatever “library” might mean. After all, it is common to split libraries into internal modules that are only meant to be used by the implementation. Other languages have grappled with the same problem in different ways, and I wonder if the problem has been
18:09:00  <jschoi_>on TC39’s radar while crafting the module system.
18:09:11  <devsnek>well js doesn't have a concept of filesystem
18:09:16  <jschoi_>ESM resolution itself is platform dependent.
18:09:24  <jschoi_>As devsnek says.
18:09:50  <devsnek>this sounds like part of the environment specific resolution system
18:10:01  <devsnek>we're actually working on something very similar to what you're saying in node
18:10:13  <devsnek>a field in package.json which says which things you can deep import
18:11:47  <jschoi_>Yes, I’ve been watching that good work. But the concept of combining packages module access control would be something that I think might benefit from language-wide standardization...Come to think of it, TC39 has already been pushing around the idea of module maps; I don’t remember if it deals with access control though.
18:12:55  <devsnek>module map is just something that implicitly exists when you link modules together
18:13:32  <jschoi_>I mean https://github.com/WICG/import-maps.
18:13:53  <jschoi_>I need to reread this.
18:14:20  <devsnek>ah
18:14:25  <devsnek>that's for the web
18:14:33  <devsnek>not for js itself
18:14:56  <jschoi_>Yes, that’s right,
18:15:00  <jschoi_>Whoops, haha.
18:15:01  <devsnek>(and its likely node would also support the format)
18:15:29  <jschoi_>I realized that as soon as I saw that it was now in WICG’s namespace...
18:17:21  <jschoi_>In any case, this deals with bare imports anyway and doesn’t block `import "library/private-implementation-logic.mjs"`anyway.
18:20:30  <jschoi_>An allowlist of module specifiers at the beginning of a module might also work...
18:22:42  <jschoi_>Anyways, it’s a real problem: As the writers of the private-methods proposal often say, if it’s exposed publicly, people will rely on it, and it’s essentially part of your public API. The same goes for internal modules.
18:24:08  <jschoi_>Also that should have been `import "./library/private-implementation-logic.mjs"`.
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20:48:19  <devsnek>who should i talk to about enabling travis for tc39/proposal-iterator-helpers
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21:18:11  <ljharb>devsnek: i believe it should just be on if you add a travis.yml, no?
21:19:30  <devsnek>ljharb: oh I guess I can try that
21:19:57  <devsnek>I was trying to set up the key signing stuff and travis cli was giving errors
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21:40:06  <devsnek>ljharb: looks like it needs to be manually turned on by someone with admin perms
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21:57:54  <ljharb>devsnek: ah ok, i'll get that taken care of
21:58:01  <devsnek>thx
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22:38:22  * Domenicanxiously refreshes https://tc39.github.io/proposal-iterator-helpers
22:39:48  <TimothyGu>Domenic: shouldn't it be https://tc39.github.io/proposal-iterator-helpers/spec.html
22:40:05  <Domenic>I sure hope devsnek has not done such a weird thing
22:40:24  <devsnek>its index.html
22:40:28  <devsnek>there just hasn't been a valid build yet
22:40:34  <devsnek>travis was being weird
22:40:35  <Domenic>https://github.com/tc39/proposal-iterator-helpers/blob/master/package.json#L5
22:40:44  <TimothyGu>ah…
22:40:58  <devsnek>the next push will be the first build
22:41:04  <Domenic>I find GitHub pages often takes some time to realize that it should be working
22:41:14  <TimothyGu>`git commit --allow-empty` time?
22:41:17  <Domenic>Even if the branch exists there's some caching layer that doesn't get invalidated
22:41:54  <TimothyGu>hmm https://travis-ci.com/tc39/proposal-iterator-helpers
22:42:23  <devsnek>oh what
22:42:26  <devsnek>its on travis-ci.org
22:42:42  <TimothyGu>oh lol
22:42:51  <devsnek>why is it on .org though
22:43:00  <TimothyGu>eh https://travis-ci.org/tc39/proposal-iterator-helpers/jobs/487675625#L495
22:43:02  <devsnek>every other repo is on .com
22:43:18  <TimothyGu>looks like it was running on Node.js v0.10
22:43:20  <devsnek>doesn't count, travis tried to use node 0.10 to build
22:43:21  <devsnek>yeah
22:46:16  <devsnek>alright lets try this
22:48:10  <devsnek>Domenic: https://tc39.github.io/proposal-iterator-helpers/
22:48:18  <TimothyGu>yay!
22:48:36  <devsnek>all that for a single method on iteratorprototype
22:49:24  <Domenic>Nice
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22:49:38  <Domenic>What is the deal with the IteratorClose?
22:49:49  <Domenic>(Also _iterator_ is not a declared variable; maybe you mean _iterated_ or _O_)
22:51:04  <devsnek>it calls return when the iterator finishes
22:51:25  <Domenic>But why though
22:51:41  <devsnek>ask whoever designed iterators
22:51:43  <Domenic>(I'm honestly asking; I don't understand return() very much)
22:51:57  <devsnek>afaik it exists for generators
22:51:59  <Domenic>But like isn't it only supposed to do that if the completion is "abruptish"
22:52:06  <devsnek>"The abstract operation IteratorClose ... is used to notify an iterator that it should perform any actions it would normally perform when it has reached its completed state:"
22:52:59  <Domenic>Hmm it is used in more places in the spec than I would have guessed hmm
22:53:19  <Domenic>No but like in https://tc39.github.io/ecma262/#sec-array.from it's only used when there's an error
22:53:35  <Domenic>It isn't used if you get to the end normally
22:54:09  <devsnek>aha
22:54:37  <devsnek>so that means... every ? call probably needs to defer to that now
22:54:46  <Domenic>Yeah... or maybe just the Call() to the mapper?
22:54:53  <Domenic>Like Array.from doesn't do IteratorClose() if IteratorStep() throws
22:54:58  <TimothyGu>devsnek: should've prototyped in engine262
22:55:13  <devsnek>lol
22:55:21  <devsnek>build times though
22:55:32  <TimothyGu>are you presenting today?
22:55:47  <devsnek>no it was presented yesterday
22:55:56  <TimothyGu>oh
22:56:00  <devsnek>and the meeting ended yesterday
22:56:04  <TimothyGu>ah
22:56:17  <devsnek>its always tue/wed/thu
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