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12:50:39  * annevkrecalls an argument about whether it should depend on Unicodeā€¦
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13:37:43  <bradleymeck>wasn't there an argument about PTC that argued about using a pragma instead of syntax at the tail position?
13:37:53  <bradleymeck>can't find it on quick search
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17:14:25  <littledan>bradleymeck: Yeah, getify argued that
17:15:33  <littledan>https://github.com/tc39/proposal-ptc-syntax/issues/5
17:18:01  <littledan>Bakkot: Rather than making process requirements for merges to proposals, maybe we should document best practices for champions?
17:18:14  <littledan>at least
17:18:21  <littledan>as a start
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20:44:43  <towc>Hey again! I'm tired of seeing people trying to export a lot of stuff from directories and trying to keep it usable by static analysis tools
20:45:34  <ljharb>towc: yeah me too, it'd be nice if people gave up on the idea of having "manifests" and instead deep-imported exactly the things they need, entirely obviating the need for "treeshaking"
20:45:41  <towc>so you might do `import X from './x'`, where `./x/index.js` contains a bunch of `export * from './a.js'`
20:45:50  <ljharb>but people seem to really like a single file that re-exports All The Things
20:46:22  <ljharb>`import { a, b, c } from "the universe"` imo isn't any better than globals :-)
20:46:38  <towc>well, I often keep a lot of those files to act as data to process and further export
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20:46:54  <towc>I'm suggesting something along the lines of `import X from './x/*'`
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20:47:21  <ljharb>that wouldn't work in a browser context, where specifiers are URLs
20:47:26  <ljharb>and where there's no filesystem to get a list from.
20:47:42  <ljharb>it'd be better to do `import X from './x/X'`, which would work more or less everywhere
20:48:12  <towc>just for clarification, that would be `import { X } from './x/*'`
20:48:26  <towc>and sure, it doesn't maybe make too much sense in browser contexts
20:48:39  <towc>but it could to bundlers that output browser code
20:48:49  <towc>like importing a whole bunch of react components
20:49:07  <ljharb>sure. but again, if you wrote the code explicitly instead of looking for a "convenient" shortcut, then every tool and context would do the right thing
20:49:28  <ljharb>similarly, if you need X things, having X imports is slightly more tedious up front, but is much nicer and cleaner over time.
20:49:50  <towc>again, I often import a whole bunch of files for processing and further exporting
20:50:00  <ljharb>sure, lots of us do
20:50:23  <ljharb>that doesn't mean that it's a good thing to make that take slightly less code
20:50:43  <ljharb>(when doing so would introduce constraints and caveats in browsers, one of the important consumers of the language)
20:51:56  <towc>for example, I'm currently working on a project using bookshelf, and I have a directory full of `models`. One of the files dynamically pulls all of those files and passes them through some functions to create actual bookshelf models from some js object specified in those files, which also have imports and functions, so can't just be data as json
20:52:08  <towc>again, it doesn't have to have a big meaning for browsers
20:52:18  <towc>they can just ignore the rule
20:52:33  <bradleymeck>towc: well what you describe above is doable today using the hooks the spec provides
20:52:45  <ljharb>towc: browsers can't just "ignore" something mandated by the language tho
20:52:57  <bradleymeck>tc39 doesn't need to do anything, it would just be up to the host platform to make a synthetic module with tons of `export * from ...` in it
20:53:01  <ljharb>towc: you could certainly add a babel transform, or a bundler plugin, to support that specifier syntax *right now*
20:53:03  <towc>even if, again, when writing stuff through bundlers like webpack, you're actually writing frontend code, even if it's divided into many files
20:53:26  <ljharb>that's not what everyone uses JS for tho.
20:53:43  <towc>hmm, so your points are that I should take this up with the node team instead?
20:53:58  <ljharb>since it's bundler specific, i'd suggest talking to bundlers.
20:54:03  <bradleymeck>towc: you could, but me and ljharb are in the wg
20:54:05  <towc>as the ecma spec doesn't concern itself with file paths?
20:54:10  <ljharb>^ that is true
20:54:24  <ljharb>i doubt node would want to take on the cost tho of supporting a specifier extension that requires tons of extra fs calls
20:54:28  <ljharb>bundlers might, however.
20:54:30  <bradleymeck>towc: correct, JS spec doesn't care about the specifiers
20:54:40  <ljharb>but since you can do it *already* with a babel transform, or with a webpack plugin, etc, i don't see why you'd need to talk to anybody
20:54:47  <towc>well, I know that this is already possible with node's experimental module loaders
20:55:17  <bradleymeck>if you write a custom loader, all bets are off
20:55:23  <bradleymeck>just like most power tools
20:55:44  <towc>I'd just love for there to be better tooling about it :/ I'd hate to hear maintainers of great context-aware info tools say "well, this isn't a js thing, no can do"
20:55:57  <towc>but yeah, I get the point
20:55:58  <towc>thanks
20:56:43  <bradleymeck>I'm not a super fan of `export * from` in general personally
20:58:58  <jwalden>hi all -- is there a proper way to <emu-xref href="#..."></emu-xref> a definition? when I try to do what I'd expect the usual way to be, I get "Warning: can't find clause, production, note or example with id #leading-surrogate"
21:00:34  <ljharb>jwalden: i think you have to wrap the original term with `<dfn>` or something
21:00:44  <ljharb>and it'll then auto-link all occurrences of that term
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21:01:02  <jwalden>ljharb: the original term is <dfn>'d, but the <dfn> is in the original ECMAScript spec and this is in a proposal
21:01:45  <jwalden>ljharb: context is https://tc39.github.io/proposal-well-formed-stringify/ which has no reason to define high/low surrogate given the original ECMAScript spec has usable ones...if I can figure how to xref them
21:02:37  <jwalden>(sorry, thought I mentioned the cross-spec reference but guess I edited it out accidentally before posting the question)
21:03:23  <ljharb>jwalden: ah yeah i think in proposals i've just manually added the refs for dfns
21:03:36  <ljharb>as a hardcoded full link to the place in the real spec
21:03:53  <jwalden>ah
21:04:24  <jwalden>ljharb: as in <emu-xref href="https://tc39.github.io/ecma262/#leading-surrogate"></emu-xref>?
21:04:42  <jwalden>I am simple devloper and am not wise to the ways of proposal writing
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21:05:46  <jwalden>well apparently not that, "Warning: xref to anything other than a fragment id is not supported (is https://tc39.github.io/ecma262/#leading-surrogate). Try href="#sec-id" instead."
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21:09:13  <jwalden>aha, missing-productions.json maybe
21:10:34  <ljharb>jwalden: maybe a href
21:10:38  <ljharb><a href> i mean
21:10:42  <ljharb>i'd have to check what i've done in other proposals
21:11:07  <jwalden>it looks like adding {"type": "term","id": "leading-surrogate","term": "leading surrogate"} to missing-productions.json will do the trick
21:15:13  <ljharb>i'm not familiar with what missing-productions.json is
21:22:05  <jwalden>well, it exists at least in this proposal and you can add stuff to it and apparently fix up dangling refs, or at least if I science-dog changes into it they do what I want, so...
21:28:28  <ljharb>interesting
21:37:48  <jwalden>https://github.com/tc39/proposal-well-formed-stringify/pull/8 for anyone mildly interested in this :-)
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