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15:39:43  <littledan>If you're attending the TC39 meeting at Bloomberg's office in New York in May, please sign this Doodle: https://ecma-international.doodle.com/poll/iksxv4v23c7s35hz
16:24:28  <rkirsling>littledan: looking forward to it! :D
17:01:19  <littledan>rkirsling: Happy you'll be joining!
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19:22:49  <cloudshu>rkirsling: hello fellow linguist
19:23:43  <rkirsling>:D
19:25:47  <devsnek>maybe one day i'll be filling out one of those doodles
19:25:57  * devsnekis filled with determination
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20:53:25  <rkirsling>cloudshu: If the internets aren't failing me, it looks like you studied linguistics at U of Chicago? I once attended CLS, like...seven years ago, haha.
20:58:59  <cloudshu>rkirsling: i did, yes
20:59:02  <cloudshu>rkirsling: cool!
20:59:21  <cloudshu>rkirsling: i did some more stuff at ucla during my grad school but not officially
20:59:35  <cloudshu>rkirsling: mostly on the S's, seems like you too
21:04:36  <rkirsling>rkirsling: the S's, haha
21:04:47  <rkirsling>ahem, cloudshu ^
21:04:55  <rkirsling>(lemme just ping myself a bunch
21:05:23  <cloudshu>rkirsling: that's how we always split'em up, the Ps vs the Ss
21:05:53  <rkirsling>cloudshu: Yeah, I was interested in compling but UW-Madison didn't have much of that; learned a lot about sem/prag though.
21:06:44  <rkirsling>cloudshu: Also spent years convinced I was interested in NLP before finally realizing that the well-behavedness of PLT is probably more my jam in the end :P
21:08:08  <rkirsling>cloudshu: natural languages still make for an excellent hobby if nothing else, haha.
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21:20:42  <cloudshu>rkirsling: it does throw a wrench in things that pragmatics starts with a p...
21:21:39  <rkirsling>cloudshu: Haha, unfortunately so. And morphology's kind of out in the cold. But it's a fun phrasing otherwise :)
21:21:41  <cloudshu>rkirsling: actually what turned me off of NLP was maybe along the same lines, that the successes and advances in NLP weren't really in, say, fregean logics
21:21:51  <cloudshu>but in heuristic modeling and all that ML hotness
21:25:06  <rkirsling>cloudshu: exactly. I think statistical methods are nifty enough where they're actually emulating some messy biological process like vision, but language intuitively feels like it should have a right answer... ML will get you a shockingly adequate product, but doesn't really further one's understanding of what's really going on :(
21:26:36  <rkirsling>cloudshu: I guess the twist is that the "messy" part of NL is sociology -- that we don't just state facts but invariably express ourselves while doing so. But I can't help but feel that there's a pure core to it all. :D
21:27:10  <cloudshu>rkirsling: well, at least some analytic philosophical core to it, not sure about pure
21:27:18  <cloudshu>how nostalgic
21:27:35  <rkirsling>cloudshu: right, pure for some meaning of pure ;) nostalgic indeed
21:27:39  <cloudshu>re: pragmatics, "how to do things with words" is one of the most wonderfully written things
21:27:51  <rkirsling>it's a classic!
21:57:07  <littledan>I dunno, I definitely thought there was a pure core to these things when I took a few syntax classes in college, but looking back maybe that was all arrogant reductionist modernism/neocolonialism. I regret not studying more sociolinguistics
21:58:48  <rkirsling>littledan: I certainly don't mean to speak ill of sociology, it's just that it leads natural language to look more complicated than it really is :D
21:59:18  <littledan>I'm just taking, I don't know anything about these things
22:00:42  <rkirsling>I'm just kind of excited that my simple lurking in this channel led to such a conversation 😄
22:09:03  <littledan>I gave a conference presentation once, about Jakarta Indonesian determiner phrase grammar from a "minimalist" perspective, and the senior linguist there argued against it, saying real Malay languages don't have European-style grammars but just compose pragmatically or something
22:09:50  <littledan>He wasn't convinced by my "data" that informant found this and this to be ungrammatical
22:10:06  <littledan>Anyway I didn't do a good job collecting data
22:13:40  <rkirsling>that's awesome nonetheless
22:14:31  <rkirsling>people get pretty entrenched in their favorite blackboard frameworks
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