00:01:02  <jschoi>ljharb: littledan plans to present both Pipeline Proposals 1 and 4 at the next meeting, so that might be good enough for that criterion too.
00:01:18  <jschoi>Well, assuming that they and the Babel plugins are ready by then.
00:01:29  <ljharb>in this case it's just the spec text for one of the pipeline options, so it doesn't really have its own stage :-p
00:01:56  <jschoi>Is Stage 0 a reflection of a public endorsement by a champion or of the internal state of the champion’s mind?
00:02:17  <jschoi>Stage 0 today, pre-Stage 0 tomorrow, Stage 0 in the shower the day after…
00:02:42  <Domenic>I use <ins> on the _titles_ of new clauses
00:03:19  <ljharb>interesting, i like that
00:03:27  <jschoi>I see…
00:04:49  <jschoi>Do you also do that to the headings of sub-clauses that are children of new clauses?
00:04:55  <jschoi>Recursively.
00:06:04  <jschoi>Well, whatever works for comprehensibility, I guess.
00:07:26  <Domenic>Nah, it's just a reminder when doing integration to remember to port over this section, so that's not needed
00:07:36  <jschoi>Thanks.
00:09:15  <jschoi>And done.
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04:06:28  <jschoi>If ECMA International renamed itself to Ecma International, will ECMAScript ever become EcmaScript?
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07:01:30  <TimothyGu>jschoi: It's already Ecma International
07:01:48  <TimothyGu>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecma_International
07:01:55  <TimothyGu>so no
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09:11:22  <jschoi>TimothyGu: Sorry, yes, I had meant: Given the parent organization renaming has happened, are there plans to do a similar renaming to ECMAScript? The answer is probably no, anyway.
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09:57:36  <littledan>jschoi: You can just refer to JavaScript or JS; no particular need to use ECMAScript (the name was designed to be unusable)
09:59:54  <Havvy>jschoi: What's ECMA renaming too?
10:00:01  <Havvy>to*
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13:20:54  <jschoi>littledan: Sorry, I mean to restrict my question to within the Ecma262 specification text itself. Aren’t references to “JavaScript” are verboten in Ecma262 itself, because of the trademark situation? Having said that, yes, there’s probably no point in changing “ECMAScript” to “EcmaScript”.
13:21:21  <jschoi>Havvy: “ECMA International” became “Ecma International”.
13:22:27  <jschoi>*Aren’t references to “JavaScript” verboten in
13:33:29  <littledan>that's right, ECMAScript is the thing
13:33:39  <littledan>I believe it's a trademark that Ecma has, so it'd be a bit hard to change at this point
13:43:20  <jschoi>Heh. They did find changing their “ECMA International” trademark worth it, but there at least they would have a general branding benefit. Here, “ECMAScript”, as you say is deliberately ugly…What a funny situation.
13:46:13  <jschoi>On a tangent, I have to say that I find it a near miracle, approaching Unicode, that JavaScript standardization turned out as well as it did, under the very tight constraints that it has always been under since first implementation.
13:46:29  <jschoi>Well, not a miracle, I guess. Just a lot of hard work from a lot of engineers. But it could have turned out a lot worse.
13:46:46  <jschoi>Hard work and luck, pft.
14:02:10  <jmdyck>littledan: my guess would be that the trademark is case-insensitive.
14:03:50  <littledan>there are certainly standards groups that don't work as well, but there's also room for improvement still
14:04:07  <jmdyck>(it would depend on where and how the trademark is registered)
14:04:13  <littledan>we're doing pretty well on compat among implementations, though
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18:29:48  <littledan>hey, if anyone is interested in joining a call about making better documentation to make TC39 more accessible, please sign this Doodle so we can work out an appropriate time: https://doodle.com/poll/xt7d63sfa7in86xa
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19:01:04  <jmdyck>littledan: "accessible" in what sense?
19:02:35  <jmdyck>I've got a question relating to https://github.com/tc39/ecma262/pull/1105, but I don't want to take that discussion further afield:
19:03:16  <jmdyck>Is there a document/resource that collects all the specific dependencies that other specs have on ecma262?
19:04:35  <jmdyck>It'd be nice to know what we can freely refactor, vs where we need to consult/alert some other group.
19:04:41  <littledan>jmdyck: Well, that's relatively open. I'd say you're a success case for how non-members can contribute to TC39 on GitHub, but there are lots of different ways people may contribute (providing direction on features, working out edge cases, making editorial changes, educating JS programmers on new and proposed features, and organizational work like reaching out to appropriate stakeholders, attending a committee in
19:04:41  <littledan>person, doing a Stage 3 review, implementing a feature in a browser or in tools, etc) and with a little bit more documentation we might be able to make things clearer for each of these different kinds of actions
19:05:26  <littledan>jmdyck: Not that I know of, but the documents that I'm aware of are standards of Khronos, W3C and WHATWG
19:05:50  <littledan>jmdyck: And most of those don't reach down into internals very much; most of them use WebIDL as an abstraction layer
19:07:33  <littledan>jmdyck: I agree with you that it'd be nice to have a clear communication channel with related standards. This is coming up in other issues as well, such as https://github.com/tc39/ecma262/issues/1093 . Unfortunately, there aren't many people who take the time to cross these sorts of organizational boundaries. annevk , Domenic_, TimothyGu and mathiasbynens have done work on both sides here, and it's been really helpful.
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19:19:56  <Domenic>I'm sure we'd do more work if we got less pushback from former editors and current editors
19:21:24  <Domenic>But there's a lot of "ES should stand on its own" attitude that makes it difficult
19:27:53  <jschoi>As a nonmember, I have an interest in some of those other ways to contribute, particularly attending TC39 meetings. I also participate a little in several W3C and WHATWG standards; as such, I am also interested in interorganizational relations. I would be interested in making better documentation, though right now specifying/implementing the pipeline proposals is taking up most of my free time.
19:30:16  <jschoi>Speaking of interorganizational work, it may be worth cross-posting that Doodle poll to #whatwg and other discussion places for WHATWG and W3C groups. Or maybe it would be too early to solicit feedback from outside TC39 contributors.
19:30:26  <jschoi>One more organization that comes to mind is the Unicode Consortium.
19:32:20  <jschoi>As a stakeholder in making JavaScript good. JavaScript depends on Unicode, not the reverse, but JavaScript environments are now among the most ubiquitous implementations of Unicode there are, and it is in the Consortium’s interest to pay attention to how JavaScript does Unicode. The recent regular-expression Unicode property rules have been a huge step forward in that, as well as work from Ecma-402.
19:33:57  <srl295>jschoi: I try. Full member of Unicode here.
19:34:35  <srl295>I think ecma is a liaison member to Unicode iirc
19:35:02  <jschoi>Excellent. And yeah.
19:35:06  <jschoi>I should renew my membership; I let it lapse…
19:35:36  <srl295>Contact me if you have issues or questions there
19:36:01  <jschoi>Oh, great, thanks, will do. I’ve submitted one Unicode proposal before, and I might do more later.
19:36:40  <jschoi>After pipelines, I plan to do a proposal for named Unicode code point / character-sequence references in strings and regular expressions, which I think would be a huge boon to both JavaScript and Unicode.
19:36:59  <jschoi>I’ll contact you when I get to either; thanks.
19:37:34  <ljharb>jmdyck: fwiw i am *super* interested in making it easier for someone changing the ecma262 spec, to at least *know* what the impact would be on other specs
19:37:50  <ljharb>i've suggested it before - even leaving invisible HTML comments in the ecmarkup - but it's been shot down for various reasons
19:38:13  <jmdyck>are the resasons recorded in public?
19:38:19  <srl295>jschoi: as a general Unicode proposal or ecma
19:38:23  <ljharb>jmdyck: yes if you can track down the previous PRs/issues :-)
19:38:31  <ljharb>i don't like not being able to freely refactor for readability because of invisible implicit dependencies
19:38:53  <jschoi>I have some new character proposals for Unicode; the name references would be a TC39 proposal but I would solicit input from the Consortium.
19:38:54  <jmdyck>yup
19:39:01  <jschoi>That was at srl295.
19:39:15  <ljharb>Domenic: re your intrinsics comment, do you think it'd be a necessity that there be a hardcoded list of intrinsics somewhere (like there is now)?
19:39:19  <jmdyck>("yup"' was at ljharb)
19:39:39  <ljharb>Domenic: iow would a "GetIntrinsic"-style solution, where to get the "whole list" you have to grep the document, be acceptable? or not
19:43:13  <Domenic>ljharb: I just can't imagine a solution that is of similar rigor without listing them.
19:43:31  <Domenic>Maybe something hand-wavey like "invisibly crawl all objects accessible from the global and store a reference to them (not triggering any proxy traps)"
19:43:37  <Domenic>But nothing rigorous
19:44:07  <ljharb>gotcha
19:44:29  <ljharb>i wonder if we could statically locate all GetIntrinsic calls in the spec, and only in the build output, have the final table?
19:45:07  <ljharb>some kind of balance between "ease of reading/editing the spec" and "rigor when deciding what to cache at realm creation time"
19:47:00  <Domenic>Well, that wouldn't work for external dependencies, unless you were planning to crawl those too
19:47:06  <jmdyck>(note that Table 7 doesn't list all intrinsics, just the "well-known" ones)
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19:47:56  <ljharb>Domenic: ah right, that is true. but i think it's fine if external specs are required to list their own intrinsics separately
19:48:20  <Domenic>Er, I disagree, that's what spawned this thread in the first place.
19:48:21  <ljharb>altho then it doesn't address the use case of "how do i know what's being depended on". hmm
19:48:23  <ljharb>yeah
19:48:30  <ljharb>k, i'll think more about it
19:48:33  <srl295>jschoi: you are on the Unicode list, that's a good resource to use.
19:49:08  <jschoi>srl295: Yes, thanks; definitely will do.
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19:54:10  <jmdyck>Table 7 isn't that great at telling you what's being depended on either. E.g. %isNaN%. The ES spec doesn't have a useful reference to %isNaN%, so does some external spec reference it? No easy way to find out.
19:55:35  <jmdyck>Or if the ES spec *does* have a useful reference to %Foo%, you can see why it's in Table 7, but does some external spec *also* reference it?
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20:49:31  <annevk>Yeah, we should just track host dependencies somewhere, even if in a separate file
20:50:18  <annevk>Current setup relies too much on folks keeping an eye out
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