00:00:05  <jfhbrook>I always do bulleted lists
00:00:14  <jfhbrook>but I'm not principled enough to come up with tagged buckets
00:00:32  <substack>bret: I see that you're not adhering to keepachangelog.com's recommendations in https://github.com/bcomnes/changelog-init/blob/master/CHANGELOG.md
00:00:38  <substack>bullets are fine too
00:01:04  <jfhbrook>my changelog looks like https://github.com/jfhbrook/node-ecstatic/blob/master/CHANGELOG.md
00:01:14  <substack>i think things like http://keepachangelog.com/ discourage people from writing changelogs by making up too many rules
00:01:29  <substack>it's a fucking chore to format things exactly the way they want it
00:01:33  <jfhbrook>well
00:01:41  <jfhbrook>so there's a rebuttal to this
00:01:45  <jfhbrook>and it's not the same for everyone
00:01:54  <jfhbrook>but you know how people tend to look for someone else's linting rules?
00:01:59  <jfhbrook>because they don't want to choose their own?
00:02:17  <jfhbrook>and hope that the rules mean their code is good?
00:02:21  <jfhbrook>it's a similar thought process
00:02:29  <substack>my format: # major.minor.patch\nWHATEVER\n
00:02:35  <jfhbrook>this especially applies when working with teams where everyone else is a noob
00:02:59  <substack>I hate that dynamic :/
00:03:14  <substack>it generates really... mediocre outcomes
00:03:35  <jfhbrook>does it?
00:03:40  <jfhbrook>like I don't wholly disagree but
00:03:52  <jfhbrook>what's an example of a time where adopting airbnb linting rules led to worse code?
00:04:08  <jfhbrook>ugh wells fargo's new website sucks
00:04:18  <jfhbrook>it's slick but it has problems where javascript just.....doesn't load
00:04:33  <substack>my CU website is worse by far
00:04:56  <jfhbrook>a website that allows me to move thousands of dollars should not have javascript load bugs that break the ui
00:05:12  <jfhbrook>> Online Banking is temporarily unavailable
00:05:13  <jfhbrook>oh
00:05:16  <jfhbrook>I feel a lot better now
00:05:24  <jfhbrook>(no really, it's actually down and that's why it's being a turd)
00:05:37  <substack>I wish banks in america worked like in europe
00:05:48  <substack>where you can transfer money from any bank to any other bank for free online
00:05:58  <jfhbrook>yeah it would be nice
00:06:06  <jfhbrook>unfortunately the us is incapable of sane regulation
00:06:32  <jfhbrook>anyway, so yeah: wrt choosing linting rules or "standards," I don't know that it *causes* mediocrity so much as it *allows* mediocrity
00:06:35  <substack>I think europeans are partly confused by bitcoin for this reason
00:06:44  <jfhbrook>I'm very confused by bitcoin
00:06:50  <jfhbrook>I've basically decided it's a scam
00:07:06  <jfhbrook>like obviously it's not because the value will stay consistent over short timespans
00:07:22  <jfhbrook>but it just *feels* like a get rich quick scheme even when you're trying to use it to store value rather than speculating
00:07:23  <substack>I don't know how to use it for anything particularly useful yet
00:07:54  <substack>bitcoin does make it easier to implement payments than seting up a credit card processor
00:08:07  <jfhbrook>yeah I could see that
00:08:11  <substack>but then only people with bitcoin can use your thing
00:08:16  <jfhbrook>yeah
00:08:48  <substack>I'm kinda anti-money though so I don't exactly like bitcoin for that reason
00:09:20  <substack>like, why do we even still use money, we have enough abundance to have star trek society
00:09:57  <jfhbrook>I'm not anti-money but I'm definitely becoming increasingly leftist over time
00:10:17  <jfhbrook>like I'm okay with the idea of using money to help manage resources, invisible hand etc
00:10:24  <jfhbrook>but the invisible hand does a shit job in a wide range of fields
00:10:38  <substack>it's not so much anti-money as why aren't we working to incrementally abolish it or make it less important
00:10:55  <jfhbrook>like I'm pretty sure health care, telecoms and oil all need to be violently nationalized
00:11:06  <substack>once people's basic needs are met, money becomes far less important
00:11:07  <jfhbrook>irl I wouldn't be quite so extreme but I can dream XD
00:11:52  <substack>and labor also becomes far more expensive because if you withold your labor you're not going to starve unsheltered with no health care
00:12:18  <substack>jfhbrook: yeah anything that is presently a monopoly I would say
00:12:22  <jfhbrook>basically
00:12:30  <substack>there's no point to having private companies if there's only one of them
00:12:47  <substack>the company is just going to wring the people for as much as it can
00:13:57  <substack>but now that I'm not paying rent anymore and soon I will be eating food grown on-site, I won't need as much money
00:14:13  <substack>or at least, money will hold less power over my day-to-day concerns
00:14:41  <substack>and I can waste it on electronics projects and beer
00:15:43  <substack>I need to get my little brother to come down here, he's working as a dishwasher in kenai and it sucks
00:15:52  <jfhbrook>oh ouch
00:15:54  <jfhbrook>yeah I mean
00:16:05  <jfhbrook>working as a dishwasher in hawaii sounds a little nicer
00:16:10  <bret>substack: lol meh good enough
00:16:37  <jfhbrook>I forgot your siblings would be outta school by now
00:16:51  <bret>that tool was kind of a wasted effor, i dont even use it anymore
00:17:21  <bret>noffle: want commit access to make it better?
00:17:26  <jfhbrook>you know, that reminds me
00:17:37  <substack>jfhbrook: ross just got done with highschool, thomas is still in highschool, hannah is in SF at a for-profit art school ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
00:17:37  <jfhbrook>so licenseify
00:17:51  <jfhbrook>damn, for-profit art school
00:18:10  <substack>and she's working a retail job in union square
00:18:25  <substack>i guess she likes city life though
00:18:41  <substack>it's the anti-nikiski
00:18:44  <jfhbrook>licenseify--porting it to python is awkward because setup.py works completely differently from package.json, but I think there's a version of it that takes a setup.py keyword and autogenerates the license file off that
00:19:08  <jfhbrook>re: your sister--yeah, funny huh? how some people really click with a city and some people just can't
00:19:17  <jfhbrook>I never thought I'd be down for new york
00:19:22  <bret>substack: you are totally right, man i should have read this closer. im super sloppy with my changelogs https://github.com/hypermodules/dti/blob/master/CHANGELOG.md
00:19:27  <jfhbrook>though who knows I might ragequit at some point
00:19:43  <substack>jfhbrook: I like cities but they are far too expensive for my willingness to work
00:19:43  <jfhbrook>the wage slavery is a bit of a deal with the devil
00:20:10  <jfhbrook>yeah--like with sw gigs in the city, you get to live pretty comfortably if you work a full time job, but if you decide you don't want to work full time anymore you're screwed
00:20:32  <substack>I prefer to work very little much more than I prefer living in a city and I also like modifying my environment which is hard in an apartment
00:20:34  <jfhbrook>and you'll always wonder if you'd be happier working remote gigs in vermont
00:20:47  <jfhbrook>aha, yeah, that's very true
00:20:55  <substack>bret: I prefer sloppy changelogs
00:21:21  <jfhbrook>I think the biggest reason one would have for changelog configs is for writing tools around them
00:21:52  <jfhbrook>but I can't think of any great tools other than grep
00:22:04  <jfhbrook>grep has a flag for "5 lines north and south of a match" right?
00:22:18  <substack>have you read the manual for sed? it's surprisingly not very complicated but actually very powerful
00:22:29  <jfhbrook>ah, -A, -B and -C
00:22:33  <bret>substack: its still parsable by https://github.com/hypermodules/gh-release / https://github.com/ungoldman/changelog-parser so im happy
00:22:41  <jfhbrook>I actually haven't, I've only used sed's replace
00:22:55  <substack>that's mostly what I had used sed for until yesterday
00:23:14  <substack>then I read the COMMAND SYNOPSIS section
00:24:01  <substack>the address system works like vi but it's even cooler
00:24:03  <bret>i want to find a copy of https://www.amazon.com/dp/020107981X/
00:24:32  <jfhbrook>I'm extremely shitty at vi
00:24:38  <jfhbrook>I just can't be assed to get any good at it
00:24:49  <jfhbrook>tools around my editor honestly just leave me confused beyond some basics
00:25:58  <substack>https://github.com/cyberwizardinstitute/workshops/blob/master/vim.markdown
00:26:10  <jfhbrook>I've done so many vim tutorials
00:26:14  <jfhbrook>it goes in one ear and out the other
00:26:22  <jfhbrook>like don't get me wrong I use vim every day
00:26:24  <bret>jfhbrook: me too, i suck at v
00:26:26  <bret>vim
00:26:31  <bret>:w:q
00:26:32  <jfhbrook>but I use maybe 5% of its features
00:26:34  <bret>also ZZ
00:26:39  <substack>starting from https://github.com/cyberwizardinstitute/workshops/blob/master/vim.markdown#and-now-lets-learn-vim
00:26:43  <jfhbrook>I use w and b a lot
00:26:50  <jfhbrook>and :%s/this-is-basically-sed
00:27:19  <jfhbrook>I use ctrl-v to select text, sometimes d100d or whatever
00:27:23  <jfhbrook>arrow keys to move around
00:27:40  <jfhbrook>I never figured out tabs or windows or any of that crap I just open a new terminal window each time lol
00:27:47  <substack>I use f/F and t/T a lot to cut text or jumb around
00:27:56  <substack>and visual select is great
00:28:04  <bret>ive seen that before
00:28:10  <substack>I don't use tabs or windows either
00:28:13  <bret>its been on my to google list for a while
00:29:48  <jfhbrook>I also do :set nonu and :set nu to toggle line numbers so I can copypaste outside vim
00:29:57  <ungoldman>bret: we should transfer changelog-parser to hypermodules since it's a gh-release dep
00:30:11  <bret>sgtm
00:30:12  <ungoldman>it has more downloads than gh surprisingly
00:30:22  <bret>lol 👻
00:31:05  <ungoldman>i wish we could devote more time to foss at work
00:31:18  <jfhbrook>I still kinda need to find someone to help do stuff on wzrdin
00:31:30  <bret>maybe we can get ben on board with these tools and then we can
00:31:33  <bret>*muahahahah*
00:32:07  <jfhbrook>I'm not actually sure what needs to happen there to get dev moving forward but I know it means getting users involved in its development and maintenance
00:32:39  <jfhbrook>people always ping me on twitter when I'm at work
00:32:49  <jfhbrook>it took me over a year to set up logrotate
00:32:55  <noffle>re changelogs: I think a standardized format isn't too helpful. rigidity in changelogs -- like READMEs -- feels like it goes against how humans work: they're both very "human" documents and don't strongly benefit (IMO) from strict structure. generators are useful for init'ing READMEs, and I suspect I find changelog-init useful for the same reasons: I don't want to invent another general structure, and
00:32:56  <noffle>existing good tooling trumps writing it myself
00:33:03  <jfhbrook>I have a branch I'm scared to merge and release without help
00:33:23  <jfhbrook>that I think is a major bump in security (not perfect by any means, still possible to get owned)
00:33:27  <bret>the benafit to keepachangelog for me is that I actually started pubishing to githubs release section
00:33:31  <noffle>bret: sure, you can give me access if you'd like. I don't have any wants for it right now though
00:33:47  <bret>noffle: too late, you have already been granted!
00:33:50  <bret>:D
00:33:51  <noffle>:D
00:33:58  <bret>C:
00:34:48  <jfhbrook>do any of you know things about collaboration with hosted services?
00:34:59  <bret>what do you mean?
00:35:06  <jfhbrook>http://wzrd.in
00:35:13  <jfhbrook>sucks to maintain
00:35:40  <bret>what was that again? the browserify require bin?
00:35:47  <jfhbrook>yeah, it's the backend to requirebin
00:35:54  <jfhbrook>but the same thing to a lesser extent with requirebin
00:36:02  <bret>erm.. not really
00:36:18  <jfhbrook>there's a lot of interest in using it, but contributing for people is tough because there's a big ops effort involved
00:36:23  <bret>maybe you can get free pass on https://zeit.co/ or something
00:36:35  <jfhbrook>like I have keys and max pays the bills and hopefully they aren't that big but man
00:36:37  <bret>since its benefits the community
00:36:40  <jfhbrook>and like we're both busy, max more than me
00:37:15  <bret>my friend Adam works at the JS foundation running the jquery servers, maybe he can help out?
00:37:18  <jfhbrook>well like part of things is that because we're in a certain situation, I think we'd have to onboard some people that made the current system work and maybe managed some updates/releases, dusted things off
00:37:21  <bret>or knows someone who can
00:37:37  <jfhbrook>and once we have a team of people ready to take it on, then talk about how to make it so max isn't paying for it out of pocket
00:37:40  <jfhbrook>y'know?
00:37:42  <bret>jfhbrook: what kinds of chores are there?
00:38:05  <jfhbrook>bret: it's a few things, not just chores but
00:38:32  <bret>jfhbrook: maybe get in touch with epicodus or some code schools, they might have some competent juniors interested in experience
00:39:18  <jfhbrook>bret: first, it *does* break sometimes, and the fact that neither of us are devops wizards makes that harder, and the fact that max is paying for it and owns the domain means it's harder to, say, migrate to a new box that used ansible from the start
00:39:37  <jfhbrook>like that stuff could be fixed but it'd have to work within the one box, at least for prod
00:39:45  <jfhbrook>but yeah generally, being on-call
00:39:51  <bret>jfhbrook: is it just a node app? maybe move to a PASS instead of babysitting linux servers
00:40:27  <jfhbrook>bret: second, there's a big list of tickets that needs to be dealt with https://github.com/jfhbrook/wzrd.in/issues
00:40:28  <substack>it kind of needs to be a real linux env though
00:40:32  <substack>to sandbox right?
00:40:50  <jfhbrook>substack: the joke of all this is that the sandboxing is almost nonexistent, like dangerously bad
00:41:04  <bret>>:D
00:41:23  <jfhbrook>substack: bret https://github.com/jfhbrook/wzrd.in/pull/133 this improves things significantly without actually fixing the core problem, but lays a pretty decent foundation for fixing that more properly
00:41:35  <jfhbrook>but deploying it is hard
00:41:43  <bret>oh dang that is a major refactor
00:41:49  * phatedjoined
00:41:49  <bret>err mad refactor
00:41:53  <jfhbrook>it needs a code review or two, coordinating with max to figure out wth with the machine
00:42:23  <jfhbrook>like I got someone to give some pointers, and there's a gap in the testing that needs to happen
00:42:30  <bret>Maybe max can ask for interested people at a donut.js or something
00:43:12  <jfhbrook>so like the ideal process would be that we set up some ansible scripts to set this up somewhere, then write the missing tests, get some code reviews, run the ansible scripts against a second box, flip the dns, kill the old box
00:43:24  <jfhbrook>a deploy like that takes a few hours on a good day though, and a google hangout
00:43:53  <bret>i need to sink some time into my sbot pub, things crashing the new version of patchwork for some reason
00:44:05  <jfhbrook>neither me nor max has the time to do it justice, though I can help drive things and I think max would find the time to help flip the dns, or give someone the creds, if the rest of it was there
00:44:36  <jfhbrook>oh but yeah, that refactor makes it run everything in docker containers
00:45:00  <jfhbrook>and the next iteration of that would be to use a sandboxing tool that's linked in the PR, to make it do "real sandboxing" on linux only
00:45:06  <bret>jfhbrook: maybe write up what you think needs to happen, or who you need to help out, and then tweet it out to see if you can find some people
00:45:22  <jfhbrook>I've tried tweeting, I've tried asking upstream users directly
00:45:32  <bret>hrmm
00:45:41  <jfhbrook>I'm not actually that big of a deal on twitter though
00:46:27  <bret>what if you got ogd, substack, feross and maybe some other large audience accounts to retweet or sometjing
00:46:32  * phatedquit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
00:46:49  <jfhbrook>yeah one problem is I straight up don't hang out with a lot of the crowds that actually use wzrd.in
00:47:54  <bret>getting a 502 right now
00:47:57  <jfhbrook>fuck
00:48:07  <jfhbrook>wait
00:48:09  <jfhbrook>I have a theory
00:49:31  <bret>im focused on https://github.com/hypermodules/hyperamp and general drive by opensource right now, but i could see adopting a service in the uture
00:49:33  <bret>future*
00:53:16  <jfhbrook>omg that's hilarious
00:53:28  <jfhbrook>somehow the logrotate is busted
00:53:47  <bret>aw man
00:54:04  <bret>one of my raspi'
00:54:16  <bret>s package manager just stopped working the other day
00:54:23  <bret>i almost just nuked it
00:55:28  <substack>if sd cards had better perf rpis would be so much better
00:55:30  <jfhbrook>I think someone's been hammering the service
00:58:58  <substack>time to finish this tilemesh spec
00:59:29  <jfhbrook>someone is using it http://nnn.ed.jp/
00:59:31  <jfhbrook>for this
01:06:24  <jfhbrook>fuck
01:06:33  <jfhbrook>I have to figure out how to block this particular website
01:06:37  <jfhbrook>I think?
01:06:45  <jfhbrook>I don't think I signed up for people using this in prod
01:08:27  <jfhbrook>wow it's a private school
01:09:03  <jfhbrook>https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&u=https://nnn.ed.jp/&prev=search
01:09:59  <jfhbrook>> 7) /your/killing/me/smalls.jpg: 10
01:11:02  <jfhbrook>ahahaha oh man I se what happened
01:11:14  <jfhbrook>whoever built that site was just following directions on https://www.npmjs.com/package/tldjs
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03:06:22  <bret>WOOO thursday night! 🍷
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