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00:58:41  <kumavis>https://letsencrypt.org/2015/09/14/our-first-cert.html
00:58:44  <kumavis>how diggity dog
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01:20:22  <kumavis>my thoughts after some time away from the screen, i think the module is a nice generalization of the problem we have, but not necessarily a common need
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06:20:39  <jjjohnny>substack: hmm, maybe banking has a different role, going to the deeps for most random private keys
06:20:48  <jjjohnny>a different role as of crypto
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16:34:54  <mikolalysenko>currently watching this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W71BTkUbdqE
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16:35:55  <mikolalysenko>it *seems* nuts to me, and like there is a lot of post-hoc rationalization going on here
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17:34:06  <mikolalysenko>not convinced by the google arguments for creating a gigantic monolithic repo
17:34:35  <mikolalysenko>but they've invested so much in it that by now it is in their interest to keep rationalizing it to themselves
17:40:29  <substack>haha yeah
17:40:36  <substack>I've talked to people who work there
17:40:42  <substack>they've built so much tooling to make it work (for them)
17:47:47  <mikolalysenko>maintaining that thing must literally cost them billions of dollars
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17:52:30  <substack>the tools that work best for decentralized ecosystems will probably work best for the largest companies
17:52:36  <substack>since large companies are just small ecosystems
17:53:40  <substack>but most large organizations seem to have quite hierarchical social structures that manifest (via conway's law) in strange technical patterns
17:54:15  <mikolalysenko>seems like google's repo is really about enforcing the federated structure they use internally for management
17:54:35  <mikolalysenko>the nested directories track the hierarchies of projects and individuals at google
17:59:10  <substack>another strange thing about the way google structures code is the mandate that any breaking change is accompanied by updating EVERY dependency at the same time
17:59:13  <substack>with tooling
17:59:59  <substack>that probably generates a ton of technical debt where people are disempowered to make certain changes because the other changes in dependencies are too severe to fix
18:06:29  <mikolalysenko>it is like my advisor used to say: the last strongholds of communism are american corporations
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19:01:33  <ogd>lol
19:02:20  <ogd>substack: mikolalysenko ive been on a quest to find a way to compile chromium from source lately
19:02:38  <ogd>in the docs its like 'if you work at google you can use our magic distributed internal build server to do it nearly instantly'
19:02:52  <ogd>otherwise its like 'for mere mortals, it takes 12 hours on a macbook'
19:02:58  <ogd>and you need 16gb ram etc
19:03:26  <ogd>its like 10x at least more difficult to compile than the linux kernel, for example
19:03:40  <mikolalysenko>yeah, tell me about it
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19:03:51  <ogd>its just amazing to me that a bunch of engineers can tolerate how crazy horrible it is to contribute to chromium
19:04:06  <ogd>but i guess all the people google pays to work on it get to use the internal thing and dont experience it in the way an outsider like me does
19:04:21  <ogd>im going to try and write an ec2 spot instance distributed build module for compiling chromium
19:04:35  <ogd>because its the only way i can think of to actually compile it without having a edit-build-test cycle of hours at a time
19:04:52  <mikolalysenko>I don't think you need to do a full rebuild for each change
19:04:59  <mikolalysenko>I think chromium uses gyp
19:05:09  <ogd>it uses `ninja` which supports caching
19:05:13  <mikolalysenko>so what you can do is after the initial build, you go in the build directory and run the makefile it generates
19:05:16  <mikolalysenko>ah
19:05:21  <wao>12 hours? impressive
19:05:29  <mikolalysenko>not very familiar with that tool
19:05:55  <ogd>mikolalysenko: the other day though i spent 12 hours compiling it and then edited 1 file and it somehow invalidated like 75% of the source tree
19:06:01  <mikolalysenko>yeah
19:06:04  <mikolalysenko>that is a problem with c++
19:06:20  <mikolalysenko>if you tweak a header, everything changes
19:06:26  <ogd>mikolalysenko: and ninja didnt prompt me and be like 'youre about to lose 12 more hours, are you sure you wanna invalidate all the cache?'
19:06:56  <ogd>mikolalysenko: so then i decided the incremental build stuff they have isnt good enough for me
19:07:37  <ogd>because again, for googlers even if they invalidate it all it only takes a few minutes
19:07:49  <mikolalysenko>yeah
19:07:57  <mikolalysenko>companies spend lots of money on this problem
19:08:09  <mikolalysenko>c++ compile times are a serious issue for many organizations
19:08:27  <mikolalysenko>also another reason why I stopped programming in c++
19:08:31  <ogd>yea
19:09:06  <ogd>theres a thing called distcc and another called icecc that ive seen people use to do distributed chromium builds, gonna see if i can get either to work
19:09:20  <ogd>cause i really wanna do a project involving a custom chrome os on chromebooks
19:09:31  <ogd>and all of chromeos is a subfolder in the chromium megarepo
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19:43:38  <brycebaril>ogd: I just was told about ccache yesterday which will do caching for gcc/etc. I wish I'd known about it earlier
19:43:56  <brycebaril>I built V8 like 25 times yesterday and with ccache it's like 30 seconds instead of 10 minutes
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19:50:20  <wao>oh distcc.. that times on gentoo :)
19:50:28  <wao>and ccache :)
19:50:45  <ogd>brycebaril: that just does incremental build caching, not distributed bullding right?
19:51:27  <brycebaril>ogd: right but I think you can set it up to be a shared cache though not sure how you'd configure it like that on EC2
19:52:27  <brycebaril>rvagg was telling me he uses one shared ccache for his whole RPi node build cluster
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20:16:40  <substack>I used to use distcc on the linux workstations when I worked at a supercomputing center
20:17:02  <substack>there were about ~40 linux workstations and I would set up distcc on 8 or so of them
20:17:21  <substack>it was very easy because I could log into any machine with my ARSC login
20:18:14  <substack>with my 100G of linux toolchain in my home directory including a custom libc because the libc on the systems was too old for things I wanted to run
20:19:54  <substack>I would also reverse connect with ssh from the secured workstations into my laptop to get around the security
20:23:41  <wao>hehe :)
20:38:06  <brycebaril>ogd: looks like google open sourced their build system (or some subset of it) http://bazel.io/
20:39:28  <brycebaril>Doh: "Google's in-house flavor of Bazel does use build clusters, so Bazel does have hooks in the code base to plug in a remote build cache or a remote execution system.
20:39:28  <brycebaril>The open source Bazel code runs build operations locally. We believe that this is fast enough for most of our users."
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20:59:58  <ogd>brycebaril: bah
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