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03:47:45  * substacktopic: Unofficial browserling/testling mad science channel. For official help /join #browserling
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20:56:49  <nathan7>Raynos: Does Uber do remote?
20:59:49  <domanic_>nathan7, what extras?
21:00:27  <domanic_>nathan7, what is a directory index?
21:01:06  <nathan7>domanic_: nvm, I just realised we can do way better stuff
21:04:04  <nathan7>domanic_: it'd be like a prefetched subgraph of a merkle DAG
21:04:32  <nathan7>domanic_: a depth-first traversal of the DAG, in-order
21:04:53  <domanic_>nathan7, okay but what if the files do not have links?
21:05:04  <domanic_>do you mean to represent the directory like in git?
21:06:12  <nathan7>domanic_: that could work, yeah
21:06:42  <nathan7>domanic_: like, we could root it with one node always
21:06:48  <nathan7>domanic_: that node would just be a set of links
21:07:17  <domanic_>nathan7, there are some other weird things that tar has too, like you can use absolute paths
21:07:35  <domanic_>and when you unpack it can write all over your system
21:07:39  <nathan7>domanic_: yeah
21:07:43  <domanic_>a pretty terrible idea
21:07:55  <domanic_>now a days that we like containers
21:08:31  <nathan7>dunno, maybe I'm thinking too high-level with the merkle DAG packing format
21:08:52  <domanic_>what if that was just a convention?
21:09:08  <domanic_>you just had a format to combine files,
21:09:17  <domanic_>which you *could use* for merkle tree
21:09:17  <nathan7>yeah
21:09:40  <nathan7>{hash, len, buf}*
21:09:46  <domanic_>yeah
21:10:01  <domanic_>it means you couldn't stream in a file, but I think that is okay.
21:10:12  <nathan7>we could do blocks instead
21:10:28  <domanic_>you'll need filename
21:10:37  <domanic_>I think length is simpler
21:10:42  <nathan7>yes
21:11:04  <domanic_>I can't really think of a time where you really need streamable file bags
21:11:05  <nathan7>if you want a filename, you should make a directory record
21:11:19  <nathan7>streaming unpack is important, streaming packing less so
21:11:30  <domanic_>okay so have a "tree" with filenames and hashes
21:11:43  <nathan7>yeah
21:11:50  <nathan7>git tree style
21:12:12  <domanic_>I guess you could unpack to tmp files and then move into position when you see the tree object
21:12:17  <nathan7>like, the idea is that this is just a prefetched subset of a content-addressable store
21:12:24  <nathan7>well, this is why the depth-first traversal
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21:12:39  <nathan7>well, any kind of traversal would do
21:13:13  <nathan7>basically, if you can, try to put the directory records first
21:13:40  <nathan7>so that you know where a file belongs when it starts
21:13:59  <domanic_>nathan7, well if you did that you'd still need to hash/buffer the file first
21:14:07  <nathan7>yeah
21:14:11  <nathan7>you can do either
21:14:24  <domanic_>and, it's better to unpack to a tempfile anyway
21:14:25  <nathan7>{len, buf, hash} might be better
21:14:53  <domanic_>because then if it crashes you are in a valid state.
21:15:08  <domanic_>yeah, I like {len, buf, hash}
21:15:40  <domanic_>nathan7, maybe the trees and blobs can be in any order
21:15:49  <nathan7>domanic_: yes
21:15:53  <domanic_>hm...
21:16:06  <nathan7>it just makes it easier on the unpacker if you go for tree-first
21:16:10  <nathan7>but either is permissible
21:16:15  <domanic_>though I think I like leaf first order best.
21:16:28  <nathan7>and that's totally fine
21:16:57  <domanic_>because then you can know the blob hashes by the time you get to the trees
21:16:57  <nathan7>any unpacker can make use of the dirnode-first as an optimisation
21:17:07  <nathan7>but should support leaf-first always
21:17:34  <domanic_>we are really splitting hairs here talking about optimization
21:17:41  <domanic_>we should optimize for simplicity
21:18:06  <nathan7>leaf-first is the least efficient to unpack, the most efficient to pack
21:18:12  <nathan7>any ordering is allowed
21:18:38  <domanic_>nathan7, but then the same files can produce multilpe hashes
21:18:59  <domanic_>how is leaf first inefficient to unpack?
21:19:30  <nathan7>it means I can't start traversing the tree yet
21:19:39  <nathan7>and figuring out where to put stuff, or whether I even want it
21:19:48  <domanic_>if you unpack the blobs first, then you just mv them into the directories
21:19:51  <nathan7>you could put heaps of garbage in
21:20:01  <nathan7>and then the actual file
21:20:09  <nathan7>and the direntry would only include the actual file
21:20:25  <nathan7>tarbombs that are just pointlessly large would be easy to produce
21:20:32  <nathan7>and you wouldn't be able to validate them
21:20:48  <domanic_>nathan7, well since you have a length first, you can scan through the headers & hashes and then pull out the trees
21:21:00  <domanic_>without reading the whole contents
21:21:00  <nathan7>that requires having the whole thing
21:21:06  <nathan7>I know I want the top-level item
21:21:10  <nathan7>and all its children
21:21:36  <nathan7>you're giving the leaves of a merkle tree, but I don't have any proof they're leaves yet
21:22:29  <nathan7>the packer can buffer, because the packer knows the inputs aren't malicious
21:22:48  <nathan7>the packer needs to prove to the unpacker that it is in fact a consistent tree
21:24:09  <nathan7>I can send you an infinite stream of garbage leaves
21:24:42  <domanic_>but you can't send me a tree that links to the same large file over and over?
21:25:08  <nathan7>yes
21:25:11  <nathan7>what's the point of that
21:25:13  <domanic_>why not?
21:25:15  <nathan7>the file should be packed only once
21:25:49  <domanic_>what is the point of sending me an infinite stream of garbage leaves?
21:26:19  <nathan7>keeping you busy
21:26:41  <nathan7>I trust the top-level node
21:26:58  <nathan7>if you're sending me stuff, you have to prove to me that I want that stuff
21:27:13  <domanic_>I think we are going off the rails here
21:27:48  <domanic_>if you are gonna send me a large file, it's gonna have a length and be inside some block oriented bittorrent/merkle tree like interchange format
21:28:03  <domanic_>that layer ensures that it's trustworthy
21:28:05  <nathan7>mkay
21:28:15  <domanic_>this is just about bundling some related files.
21:28:29  <nathan7>what I'm envisioning is more like git packfiles
21:28:48  <nathan7>where you have a bunch of files that you could individually fetch off the content-addressable store
21:29:33  <nathan7>but you're packing them up into a bundle so I don't have to fetch them one by one
21:29:59  <nathan7>a way of sending a subset of the content-addressable store in one go
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21:37:40  <domanic_>nathan7, what about just using pack files then? but with configurable hashes?
21:38:58  <nathan7>domanic_: ?
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21:40:49  <domanic_>nathan7, if you want something like git pack files, what about just using git pack files?
21:41:05  <domanic_>what do pack files not have that you need?
21:42:07  <nathan7>packfiles are delta-compressed though
21:42:15  <nathan7>which git does using metadata we don't have
21:43:21  <domanic_>my understanding is that the delta compression in pack files is figured out when constructing the packfile
21:43:34  <domanic_>it just tests whether two blobs compress well together
21:43:48  <domanic_>it's completely separate from the actual history
21:44:27  <domanic_>and if you checked in a commit object as a blob it would delta it with an actual commit object
21:45:04  <domanic_>though, packfiles fails the "simple" requirement
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21:52:43  <joepie91_>https://imgur.com/gallery/hRf2trV
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23:40:00  <isaacs>substack: i would love some time to sit down with your computer and figure out wtf is going on with it excluding files from the tgzs that npm makes
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23:56:20  <joepie91_>er