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03:09:52  <programmarchy>so i booked my ticket to squatconf
03:10:12  <programmarchy>location will be emailed just in time?
03:10:29  <programmarchy>i dont have a place to stay yet :o
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07:40:40  <feross>sigh, bower... https://github.com/feross/webtorrent/issues/159
07:41:04  <feross>^ i don't think i handled this very well
07:42:56  <feross>i don't really want to support bower – especially the part where you add a bower.json and keep the version in sync with package.json...
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07:44:11  <feross>i tried to be helpful and published it to bower for this guy, but apparently you need the bower.json in your repo for some functionality
07:44:23  <feross>he sent this PR (https://github.com/feross/webtorrent/pull/166) and got angry when i asked some questions
07:45:40  <feross>on the one hand, i don't want to support it because i think it's a bad idea and don't want to encourage it.
07:46:19  <feross>but on the other hand, i don't want to make it harder for people to try webtorrent
07:47:45  <feross>it looks like SimpleWebRTC is on bower, but doesn't have a bower.json in the repo. I think I'll just do that. I ran `bower publish` once, it points people at `master` on the repo, that's good enough...
07:49:37  <feross>if anyone has thoughts about what to do or how to handle PRs/issues like this in the future, please share
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07:50:39  <feross>cc ogd, subspook, Raynos, defunctzombie_zz
07:50:49  <feross>oh hai domanic
07:51:14  <feross>you asked if bittorrent supports encryption on #webtorrent earlier, but then you went offline
07:51:42  <domanic>feross, oh someone answered that for me
07:52:03  <feross>domanic: i think they answered it wrong, it does support encryption via this extension: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BitTorrent_protocol_encryption
07:52:27  <feross>lots of clients support encryption and some even have a "prefer encrypted peers" or "only talk to encrypted peers" option
07:52:35  <domanic>feross, ah interesting!
07:53:01  <feross>it's mainly used to prevent or make it harder for isps to know that you're using bittorrent
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07:53:20  <feross>if you're talking to a malicious peer, it's not going to help there. they're going to know what you're downloading
07:53:24  <domanic>I have been looking into this stuff - and (mostly due to the influence of jbenet) have also been thinking about how to make a system with upgradable crypto
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07:54:32  <jbenet>oh hai!
07:54:32  <jbenet>btw
07:56:31  <domanic>but I think it can certainly be done, we need different approaches to be able to upgrade hashes, signatures, key exchange and ciphers
07:56:39  <domanic>signatures is probably the easiest
07:56:52  <jbenet>domanic, whyrusleeping and i hung out with diffie last sunday. one of the first things he pointed out was that, with hash addressing everything was going to break when the hash function got stale. "What are you going to do to keep yourself future proof? your hash functions are going to go bad" he adamantly said. i then explained multihash and he loved it.
07:56:52  <jbenet>and he pointed out we need to do the same thing for keys
07:57:08  <jbenet>so, multikey
07:57:15  <domanic>yeah totally
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07:58:09  <domanic>jbenet, we should probably write up a paper detailing the approach to upgradable crypto.
07:58:36  <jbenet>yes, we should. i would generalize to upgradable systems in general
07:58:39  <jbenet>(multicodec, etc)
07:58:58  <domanic>this will also force us to construct a simulation, and demonstrate that a rolling upgrade is possible without disrupting system operation
07:59:47  <domanic>jbenet, yeah the security aspect is the most interesting though
07:59:48  <feross>domanic: nice, you were going to talk about simulations somewhere, right?
07:59:59  <jbenet>and the system should include the code needed to parse formats. https://twitter.com/worrydream/status/478213564755230720
08:00:09  <domanic>feross, oneshot node oakland
08:00:48  <jbenet>yep, +1 on that simulation.
08:01:32  <domanic>jbenet, including the decoder is not quite so simple
08:01:50  <jbenet>yeah i know
08:02:13  <domanic>though you could include the hash of the protobuf file, etc
08:02:21  <jbenet>in particular, this idea carried out to the extreme would call for including the network stack, which is not so trivial.
08:02:43  <domanic>anyway, I don't think we need to solve that to have a good paper.
08:02:44  <jbenet>yeah hash of file specifying format is one very realizable idea
08:02:48  <jbenet>https://github.com/jbenet/ipfs/issues/36
08:02:59  <domanic>just do it for the crypto primitives and mention the rest in future work
08:03:02  <domanic>section
08:03:17  <jbenet>fair point.
08:03:41  <jbenet>we should do some bg research on this, im sure some important people have pointed this out before.
08:04:50  <domanic>hmm I have never heard of this until you brought it up
08:05:25  <domanic>obviously even gandalf was aware of the problem, but not a solution
08:05:40  <domanic>(not that it's that complex, but it needs to be demonstrated)
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08:08:18  <domanic>feross, mafintosh do any of the node torrent clients implement bit torrent encryption? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BitTorrent_protocol_encryption
08:08:50  <feross>domanic: webtorrent and peerflix don't, but there's an issue open here: https://github.com/feross/webtorrent/issues/69
08:09:11  <feross>maybe some of the other more obscure ones do? seems unlikely...
08:09:40  <mafintosh>i don't think so
08:10:24  <domanic>feross, mafintosh I've just made this: https://github.com/dominictarr/private-stream
08:10:55  <domanic>(experimenting with ideas jbenet and I have been discussing, and it sounds like it could be adapted to webtorrent etc)
08:11:11  <mafintosh>domanic: looks cool, what encryption scheme is that using?
08:13:36  <domanic>mafintosh, it's configurable - it uses 2 dh exchanges (so each end has a different encryption key) and then (by default) aes-256-cbc
08:13:53  <domanic>but you can use any cipher openssl supports
08:14:55  <domanic>the only thing is that (by design) there is no ciphersuite negotiation, so both ends need to prearrange what they will use via another channel
08:16:11  <domanic>feross, mafintosh hey so how do bittorrent clients know they can use encrypted connections?
08:16:44  <feross>domanic: it's likely passed along during the handshake phase
08:17:31  <domanic>feross, ah right
08:17:41  <mafintosh>feross, domanic: yes the probably set in the feature bit flag
08:18:01  <jbenet>domanic: he IS gandalf.
08:18:07  <jbenet>the same thing whyrusleeping and I noted.
08:18:53  <domanic>wizards and magic are just the best metaphor for understanding cryptography
08:20:00  <jbenet>no, but wizard beard + hair: http://www.mccullagh.org/db9/950-6/diffie-wh-3.jpg
08:20:44  <jbenet>he is a crypto-cyber-wizard of level VARINTMAX
08:20:47  <domanic>jbenet, have I told you about how rumplestilt skin is actually about bitcoin?
08:21:13  <jbenet>no, wait let me think
08:21:47  <domanic>it's about private key security
08:22:05  <domanic>I gotta go get on a plane, see you cats later
08:22:55  <jbenet>see ya!
08:23:40  <mafintosh>domanic: good flight
08:23:42  <jbenet>ah i think i get it now (as long as you dont know the name you might collect the debt, etc), but i'll wait to hear from you
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08:28:00  <domanic>jbenet, the story features Proof of Work Mining "spinning straw into gold"
08:28:33  <jbenet>oh wowwwwww
08:28:34  <jbenet><3
08:28:36  <domanic>and then the imp extracts a promise from the queen (for first born child, natch)
08:28:52  <domanic>though a modern day version might just be nude pictures?
08:28:53  <domanic>anyway
08:29:01  <jbenet>yep :)
08:29:02  <jbenet>hahahha
08:29:57  <domanic>so the imp/hacker demands his debt, but admits of course he would have no power if the queen could _guess is true name_, which is of course, INFEASIBLE
08:30:28  <domanic>which queenie demonstrates by attempting to BRUTE FORCE it for 3 days
08:31:07  <domanic>there isn't enough compute power in the kingdom to find his private key though
08:31:55  <domanic>but then by a fluke, a passing messenger hears a strange man in the forrest dancing around a fire singing "they'll never guess my name is rumplestiltskin"
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08:33:11  <domanic>jbenet, but the crazy thing... is that like, there are tonnes of cultures that have a basically this story - from germany, to israel, to japan
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08:48:54  <jbenet>domanic that's perfect
08:49:05  <jbenet>ah he left. get irccloud domanic.
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15:25:44  <Surplus>Hello hello! Any chance I can buy the plane ticket to Paris without fear lf
15:26:08  <Surplus>Of being left out? Im on the mailing list
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16:22:46  <Raynos>feross: bower is easy
16:23:11  <Raynos>feross: anyone that cares about bower can fork your code and add a bower.json
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17:23:31  <domanic>feross, have you looked into peer exchange: http://wiki.vuze.com/w/Peer_Exchange
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18:19:36  <kanzure>win 15
18:19:40  <kanzure>ignore.
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19:40:10  <Marak>http://hook.io is a thing
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19:59:15  <subspook>Marak: neat!
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20:27:53  <Marak>code examples for projects that do streams can be hosted for free on http://hook.io. would be possible to do interactive web demos for stream handbook
20:28:00  <Marak>hooks are powered by github gists
20:29:53  <domanic>Marak, so you run gists on your server?
20:30:22  <Marak>domanic: yeah, we pull the gist everytime the hook is requested. so hook.io always gets the updated version
20:30:40  <Marak>the gist api is pretty powerful, you can fork, push, revision history
20:31:00  <domanic>you run it in a docker or something?
20:31:39  <Marak>we have a vm thingy, its not very powerful
20:31:57  <Marak>chroot the user into a directory, hope they don't blow up too much stuff
20:32:10  <Marak>the source for hook.io will be open sourced very soon
20:32:27  <Marak>just needs to be a bit more polished so setting up a private hook.io server is seamless
20:33:38  <domanic>oh that sounds safe enough
20:33:53  <Marak>github login is also required
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20:35:12  <Marak>like, here is an example that uses gm module to resize images
20:35:14  <Marak>http://hook.io/Marak/imageResize?run=true&format=raw&image=http://millennialceo.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/win-1024x1024.jpg&width=100
20:35:18  <Marak>http://hook.io/Marak/imageResize
20:35:41  <Marak>almost any npm module can be supported
20:36:00  <Marak>we keep a curated list that people can open up pull requests to edit and add new modules http://hook.io/modules
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20:46:15  <thealphanerd>ogd: are you around? I have some questions about requirebin
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22:11:16  <domanic>ralphtheninja, hb
22:11:40  <domanic>ps I am about to eat a pizza brought with bitcoin
22:12:13  <domanic>maybe one day I will be able to look back and tell my grandmutants about the million dollar pizza i had in 2014
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22:16:12  <subspook>domanic: I was just talking with somebody and realized I should build that html5 cache manifest "app store" idea
22:16:35  <subspook>the only good thing about the app store model is that once you have some application code on your device, you have it forever
22:16:53  <subspook>and you opt-in to upgrades, unlike a web page where you always get updates no matter what
22:17:04  <subspook>incidentally this makes browser crypto much more secure
22:18:23  <subspook>because you can audit upgrades on your own schedule and use an old version until the audit is complete
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22:18:59  <subspook>also this is what firefox OS should have built >_<
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