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05:29:17  <juliangruber>substack what's this thing starting at 9am today?
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06:47:37  <thealphanerd>Domenic / substack
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06:47:52  <thealphanerd>the issue you were having last night with keybase is fixed in node 0.10.32
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09:27:19  <domanic>juliangruber, hey whats up?
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09:41:03  <nathan7>hey domanic
09:41:16  <nathan7>domanic: you should hang out in our time zone more
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09:41:49  <gorhgorh>hey hey nathan7 and domanic
09:43:35  <domanic>nathan7, you need to adjust that statement for your sleeping patterns
09:43:58  <nathan7>domanic: hmm?
09:44:03  <gorhgorh>I got good and bad news, original squat will not be available the 14th, but i got 2 other places
09:44:20  <nathan7>gorhgorh == Jerome?
09:44:23  <gorhgorh>and a backup plan in a "regular place" is almost secured
09:44:28  <gorhgorh>yep nathan
09:44:30  <domanic>oh bummer! lucky we didn't tell anyone where it would be
09:44:31  <nathan7>\o/
09:44:39  <gorhgorh>we won't
09:44:47  <gorhgorh>if we do we could blow the squat anyway
09:44:51  <nathan7>mystery conference [=
09:44:51  <domanic>just say "mystery location"
09:45:00  <gorhgorh>this is not winter already (so squat can close fast)
09:45:28  <gorhgorh>anyway one of the space is reallly better (inside paris) than previous one
09:45:45  <domanic>nathan7, btw, I am only one timezone over from you: http://www.worldtimebuddy.com/?pl=1&lid=2759794,293397&h=2759794
09:45:56  <nathan7>domanic: I know
09:45:58  <nathan7>domanic: it's great
09:46:09  <substack>juliangruber: starting at 9? no idea
09:46:10  <gorhgorh>we are working on the website with joates, we expect to make a proper launch this weekend
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09:55:46  <gorhgorh>first draft of squatconf web http://squatconf.eu/ (contact script is not yet up, I'll fix that tonight)
09:56:31  <nathan7>sweeeet
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09:59:28  <nathan7>gorhgorh: is the source of that up somewhere?
09:59:41  <nathan7>gorhgorh: I'd like to {grammar,spelling}nazi that
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10:01:13  <gorhgorh>hé hé hé sure thing it is here https://github.com/squatconf/website/tree/www-launch-v01
10:01:13  <gorhgorh>and please be a gramma nazi, I'm the one who wrote most of it ... and my english is pretty low
10:01:37  <nathan7>it's written in exactly the style you speak in
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10:02:25  <gorhgorh>french roghtly translated in english, i know, but ... for a french my english is pretty decent hu hu
10:02:46  <nathan7>not criticism, just an observation
10:03:16  <nathan7>it's not often that I can instantly tell who wrote a text
10:03:28  <gorhgorh>I know how good my english is, so no worries, and even better, I'll learn out of it
10:03:42  <gorhgorh>hé hé, this is actually a good feature ;)
10:03:59  <nathan7>I'm on my backup laptop and everything feels a little off
10:04:19  <nathan7>lol, I don't even know my github password
10:05:40  <gorhgorh>anyway feel free to modify as you wish, we are all on the same boat, in the end I'm just the guys who deal with the venue, whater fits you will fits in
10:05:52  <nathan7>yar
10:10:45  <gorhgorh>ok, I'm off for a meeting i'll be back in two hours, later mate
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10:57:16  <juliangruber>substack oh i meant the amazon thing around 11
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11:25:11  <substack>feross: drag/drop on instant.io doesn't work very well for me on linux
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11:25:30  <substack>what about a download form?
11:26:29  <substack>it just opens the file in the browser instead of intercepting the dropped file
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14:15:51  <tixz>Are env variables discouraged to parameterise ones development, testing, prouction etc. environments? I'm specifically thinking something like API keys and external resources (SSL certs ...)
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17:20:56  <mafintosh>substack: it takes me 10-15 tries to install lexicographic-integer because i spell terribly
17:21:32  <mafintosh>i'm close to just adding a bash alias lexint='npm install lexicographic-integer'
17:24:33  <substack>english!
17:25:39  <substack>I have an alias for correcting spelling on the command line that I use obsessively
17:26:02  <substack>echo "$*" | aspell -a | tail -n2 | head -n1 | perl -pe's/[^:]+: //'
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18:02:49  <juliangruber>substack that is cool
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18:13:54  <gorhgorh>@nathan7 ping
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19:01:39  <kessler_>Hi james just making sure you managed to get in the house with layla there
19:02:41  <substack>kessler_: still at TAMI
19:04:57  <kessler_>Kk hows the bike going?
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19:12:26  <pfraze>domanic, thinking about semantics for concurrent writes to registers in eco
19:13:06  <pfraze>choosing a winning value - one thing you can do is branch the value and wait for the application to resolve the branch, like couchdb does
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19:13:52  <domanic>that is difficult without a point of control (central database)
19:14:14  <pfraze>branching works without a central db
19:14:37  <pfraze>to resolve the branch, one of the members just has to issue a new write that is not concurrent with other writes
19:14:45  <domanic>maybe you could have a thing other members of the dataset can acknowledge a update - then you know it's serial.
19:15:08  <pfraze>that would require mutual uptime, right?
19:15:32  <pfraze>mm, not necessarily
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19:15:33  <substack>kessler_: domanic got it readable, just needs some more ergonomic fixes for the seat
19:15:37  <domanic>for realtime it would - if offline was okay then it's not
19:15:48  <pfraze>well so here's what I'm thinking
19:15:53  <domanic>s/readable/ridable/
19:16:02  <pfraze>lol
19:16:42  <pfraze>there's a concept of greatest authority in eco - the dataset members are ordered, and if bob < alice in that order, then bob is greatest authority
19:17:05  <pfraze>so a concurrent write could do greatest-authority wins -- alice's write would get discarded
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19:17:13  <domanic>yeah that is simple
19:17:22  <kessler_>Substack: great. Ill see you later. Good luck with the bike
19:17:31  <domanic>there are cases where this doesn't matter too - like a wiki
19:17:44  <pfraze>yeah
19:17:47  <domanic>you can just have concurrent writes and merge them later
19:18:08  <pfraze>a wiki's buffer would need an object-type for text buffers
19:18:21  <pfraze>I dont have that yet, but plan to
19:18:27  <domanic>serialized writes are only really important when the datatype represents some sort of transaction between users
19:18:34  <pfraze>yeah
19:18:45  <pfraze>if we make the history replayable, it would still be possible to detect that concurrency occurred and a write was lost
19:19:15  <domanic>like, maybe I give you an IOU, and then later you mark it as paid or defaulted
19:19:28  <domanic> /disputed
19:19:42  <domanic>that gets complicated though
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19:20:34  <pfraze>that scenario actually works better (in my mind) outside of eco. Publish the iou, update the state by publishing the update and linking to the iou
19:20:47  <domanic>yeah
19:21:03  <pfraze>there's a class of datatypes like that we have to explore
19:21:32  <domanic>okay maybe it's like this: I make an IOU - you acknowlege it (basically make an promise to accept or dispute by a given time
19:21:47  <pfraze>yeah
19:22:00  <domanic>then I can dispute your promise to decide my promise .
19:22:28  <domanic>if we later sort things out we can mark the disputes as resolved
19:23:51  <domanic>this is a special case because it's between two parties.
19:24:17  <domanic>what is a app that would use a crdt that needs serialized access?
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19:25:58  <pfraze>it's cliche but financial transactions
19:26:59  <pfraze>for smaller transactions (atm withdrawal) eventual consistency works, but larger transactions (account transfer) needs serialization
19:28:42  <pfraze>though I'd need to research that a bit more, because you may need more than linearization (thinking abortable transactions / high-consistency)
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19:30:32  <pfraze>I need a cheatsheet for some of these definitions\
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19:39:09  <domanic>pfraze, is there a simpler example? "financial transaction" implies a lot of other stuff...
19:40:07  <pfraze>domanic, yeah. For serialized access youre talking about a total order to the updates, right? No concurrent ops?
19:41:26  <domanic>But I guess we redefine that to mean allocating some resource that only one person could use at a time
19:41:33  <domanic>pfraze, correct
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19:42:10  <domanic>like, the money is either in my account or your account but never in both at the same time.
19:42:47  <domanic>aha!
19:43:09  <domanic>In various board games, we need to move to the next round in a syncronized way
19:43:15  <pfraze>domanic, yeah, one thing we could do is a sort of transactional locking system, where each message links to the feed that's expected to make the next update
19:43:27  <domanic>we can't begin dealing the next hand at poker until we have finished with the previous one
19:43:46  <pfraze>yeah
19:44:42  <domanic>or say, in the games we discussed in various gh issues you have all the players announce some value - then each player would announce that it's seen the announcements.
19:45:01  <domanic>once you have a confirmation from each player you can move to the next round
19:46:02  <pfraze>yeah, so it's like declaring a sync condition
19:47:00  <domanic>yeah - board/parlor games are definitely a case that needs total ordering...
19:47:24  <domanic>because they are competitive? maybe collaborative tasks do not require total ordering?
19:47:44  <pfraze>yeah, there's a lot you can do with just partial order
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20:43:52  <nathan7>gorhgorh: sorry, I was asleep
20:44:01  <gorhgorh>coool :)
20:47:29  <nathan7>pfraze: it's a barrier, essentially
20:47:56  <pfraze>nathan7, how do you mean?
20:48:58  <nathan7>like, barriers in threaded programming
20:49:31  <nathan7>a synchronised barrier
20:50:40  <pfraze>oh, yes you're right
20:52:12  <nathan7>hmm… out of order execution is just eventual consistency
20:55:23  <pfraze>yeah
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21:07:30  <pfraze>the BOOM group has been working on a datalog-like language based on EC
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21:08:37  <pfraze>interesting premise. Theyre trying to apply it to distributed system design, but I wonder if it could change the development workflow somehow -- loosen the correctness requirements of your code somehow?
21:10:01  <pfraze>idempotence to let you make the same call multiple times, convergence to let you take an ad-hoc program flow
21:10:57  <pfraze>rather than making right statements only once and in order, you just have to make enough right statements and no wrong statements
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21:26:14  <nathan7>interesting
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23:38:37  <shama>Wraithan: Can I park my bike inside the new relic building for pdxnode tonight?
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23:38:52  <Wraithan>shama: yes(ish)
23:39:33  <Wraithan>shama: they don't like it when you bring them inside of the lobby, so you can go down into the parking area and take the freight, or you can bring the bike in and just say you didn't know
23:39:50  <Wraithan>but they may be assholes about making you go around to the freight elevator or parking it outside
23:40:17  <shama>Wraithan: Hmm ok, maybe I'll just walk this time then :) Thanks!
23:40:51  <Wraithan>shama: up to you, just didn't want ya to get blind sided if security decides to be dicks
23:41:09  <Wraithan>We have plenty of bike parking up in our office, especially afterhours
23:41:39  <Wraithan>shama: also, we have a local channel #pdxnode, if you want to hang out there :)
23:41:43  <Wraithan>no pressure though
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