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04:50:30  <mmckegg>ahdinosaur: you gonna be at enspiral tonight?
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07:18:44  <jden>ogd: hey, can you jump into #localwiki?
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09:20:05  <ahdinosaur>mmckegg: oops, forgot to mention i'm in the south island this week
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09:55:22  <mmckegg>ahdinosaur: ah, well enjoy. it's nice down there! me and jonas have been doing the cafe with wifi circuit tonight.
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10:33:49  <ahdinosaur>mmckegg: sweet. yeah, i'm hanging at an eco-village, which is quite nice. i'll be back for next week, which will be my last hack night in NZ. :O
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19:58:52  <domanic>nathan7, yo
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20:03:37  <nathan7>domanic: yo
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20:05:46  <domanic>nathan7, hey so what has been your objective with the rewrite?
20:07:51  <domanic>and how did you measure the (eg, memory) improvement?
20:08:20  <nathan7>domanic: using the V8 profiler + heap dumps
20:08:33  <nathan7>domanic: I still have to do some more testing
20:08:57  <nathan7>domanic: but iirc my test spawning a thousand cloned scuttlebutts was 60% less RAM
20:09:25  <domanic>nathan7, ah interesting
20:10:03  <domanic>do you need a perf increase like that for cloudninja?
20:10:29  <nathan7>domanic: no, Vigour stuff
20:10:41  <nathan7>domanic: GossipDB was taking way too much RAM
20:10:57  <domanic>ah - so did the memory waste come from the closures?
20:11:43  <domanic>so GossipDB has thousands of instances?
20:12:25  <domanic>nathan7, oh yeah - the reason that my streams stuff was sync was because I wrote that stuff before streams2 was even a thing.
20:12:47  <nathan7>domanic: yeah, I have 30k * 2 instances in 580MB
20:13:01  <domanic>(actually, it was when I was staying at maciej's place is poznan during my first trip to europe
20:13:10  <domanic>)
20:13:14  <nathan7>domanic: 50% of that RAM is the history arrays of gossip-object
20:13:28  <nathan7>domanic: those are shared across the clones because object streams are passing them by reference
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20:14:04  <nathan7>domanic: so assuming streams are free (they aren't), 25% of that RAM is the clones
20:14:16  <nathan7>domanic: which would mean 435M for 30k objects
20:14:31  <domanic>so you have removed cloning?
20:14:35  <nathan7>no
20:14:37  <nathan7>it's asynchronous now
20:14:46  <domanic>what is async?
20:14:50  <nathan7>all the tests have like setTimeouts in them and shit
20:15:00  <domanic>oh no
20:15:11  <nathan7>I have no idea how to fix that
20:15:18  <domanic>but is that because stream2 uses nextTick all over the place?
20:15:21  <nathan7>synchronous cloning would need a separate mechanism
20:15:22  <nathan7>yes
20:15:31  <nathan7>I might be able to roll a synchronous thing
20:15:38  <nathan7>because really nothing async happens anyway
20:15:51  <domanic>yeah this doesn't actually do io.
20:16:04  <nathan7>yeah
20:16:15  <nathan7>like, one thing I want to do tonight is make _read just do diffs
20:16:19  <nathan7>just like the initial sync
20:16:24  <domanic>it's much easier to test stuff like this when it is sync, because you can reason about the order easier
20:16:30  <nathan7>mhm
20:18:08  <nathan7>well, there was one async thing I did want to try
20:18:53  * quijotequit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
20:18:57  <nathan7>domanic: ._read does .history(this.sources), if history.length === 0, ._obj.once('_update', function() { setImmediate(function() { self._read() }) })
20:19:07  <nathan7>domanic: so if you mutate a scuttlebutt a bunch in one tick
20:19:14  <nathan7>domanic: it does a full digest on the *next* tick
20:20:05  <nathan7>domanic: but I might remedy that in gossip-object by doing automatic transactions
20:20:45  <domanic>full digest?
20:20:56  <nathan7>domanic: like, what I do on header
20:21:04  <domanic>oh also another optimization could be not to emit each change immediately
20:21:10  <domanic>but allow a few to buffer
20:21:19  <domanic>because you'll send less stuff
20:21:23  <nathan7>yes
20:21:25  <nathan7>that's my point
20:21:32  <nathan7>let them buffer per tick
20:21:47  <domanic>I thought of this before but I was waiting until someone actually complained ;)
20:21:56  <nathan7>well, here I am
20:22:11  <nathan7>I might eventually do a Rust impl of Scuttlebutt (I was playing with that today)
20:23:08  <domanic>hmm, so setTimeout is tests is pretty bad
20:23:20  <domanic>but nextTick or setImmediate is okay because it's exact
20:25:02  <domanic>or maybe we can make a thing that asserts N instances are eventually consistent?
20:25:16  <domanic>rather than just a setTimeout and a assert
20:25:34  <domanic>it would check wait until they all have matching vector clocks?
20:25:42  <domanic>then assert, and end the test
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20:51:05  <nathan7>domanic: mhm
20:51:40  <domanic>nathan7, then the tests wouldn't refer to a specific time delay at all
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20:55:36  <nathan7>domanic: setImmediate would work
20:55:46  <nathan7>domanic: I'd like to look into pull-streams
20:56:01  <domanic>what about pull-streams?
20:56:19  <nathan7>domanic: they'd work nicely
20:56:24  <nathan7>domanic: and they're more lightweight
20:56:53  <nathan7>domanic: and I'd like to simplify stuff some more anyway
20:57:00  <nathan7>domanic: like, right now I don't support multiple headers
20:57:04  <domanic>nathan7, yeah, really we need to benchmark the 3 stream types
20:57:07  <nathan7>domanic: the state diagram: http://cap.sprunge.us/nathan7
20:57:19  <domanic>nathan7, what do you mean "multiple headers?"
20:57:25  <nathan7>domanic: test/header.js
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20:59:19  <domanic>oh that one looks weird
21:00:17  <domanic>juliangruber is right about this: https://github.com/dominictarr/scuttlebutt/pull/11#commitcomment-2177054
21:00:46  <domanic>this should actually change https://github.com/nathan7/scuttlebutt/blob/master/test/header.js#L11-L13
21:00:55  <domanic>b should have two streams
21:00:59  <domanic>ba and bc
21:01:19  <nathan7>domanic: I thought it was odd
21:01:28  <nathan7>domanic: one concept I want to try though
21:01:34  <nathan7>domanic: is implementing spanning trees
21:02:12  <nathan7>domanic: oh right
21:02:18  <nathan7>domanic: the thing I wanted to have
21:02:34  <nathan7>domanic: "am I synchronised with node x that I am directly connected with, as of timestamp y'
21:02:48  <nathan7>domanic: so you send node x a header
21:03:41  <nathan7>domanic: and wait for a SYNC
21:04:01  <nathan7>domanic: also, test/meta.js requires multiple header support
21:05:25  <domanic>hmm, spanning trees sounds complicated
21:05:57  <domanic>the nice thing about CRDTs etc, and this approach to replication is that you don't need anything like that.
21:14:29  <domanic>ednapiranha, have been listing to the music you have been tweeting.
21:14:35  <domanic>that pink one was good!
21:14:46  <ednapiranha>domanic: i know
21:14:48  <ednapiranha>i hate myself for liking it
21:14:49  <ednapiranha>but
21:14:53  <ednapiranha>i like it
21:14:55  <ednapiranha>lol
21:15:35  <domanic>it was pink but still edgy
21:15:56  <ednapiranha>domanic: there are others
21:15:58  <ednapiranha>it appears to be a troupe
21:16:24  <ednapiranha>domanic: https://soundcloud.com/pcmus/attachment
21:16:34  <ednapiranha>https://soundcloud.com/pcmus/broken-flowers
21:16:54  <domanic>oh yeah this sounds like the stuff my nz friends make
21:17:23  <ednapiranha>domanic: that's it
21:17:25  <ednapiranha>i'm moving there
21:17:32  <ednapiranha>you guys have all the good music going on
21:19:17  <domanic>some links: http://crystalmagic.org/
21:19:31  <domanic>http://crystalmagic.org/album/larp-of-luxury
21:19:45  <domanic>http://lenolovecraft.bandcamp.com/
21:20:09  <ednapiranha>domanic: so i discovered this only a few days ago through mu-ziq's podcast mix
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21:20:21  <ednapiranha>and i went from disgust -> confusion -> obsession
21:20:24  <ednapiranha>in 2-3 days
21:22:39  <domanic>http://crystalmagic.org/album/opportunity
21:22:56  <ednapiranha>domanic: nice!!
21:23:44  <ednapiranha>domanic: this is kind of amazing
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21:29:31  <domanic>ednapiranha, isn't it!
21:29:37  <ednapiranha>domanic: so.. im curious
21:29:53  <ednapiranha>is this a genre that started in australia/nz?
21:29:54  <ednapiranha>or
21:29:57  <ednapiranha>london?
21:30:05  <ednapiranha>i guess it's at least a year old maybe
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21:30:21  <ednapiranha>domanic: this is a great article talking about it http://noisey.vice.com/en_uk/blog/the-weird-and-wonderful-world-of-pc-music
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21:31:30  <domanic>oh hmm, well my friends have all been making stuff like this for 10 years or more
21:31:34  <domanic>there are US examples
21:31:36  <domanic>too
21:31:40  <ednapiranha>ohh yeah
21:31:46  <ednapiranha>yeah this is..
21:31:49  <ednapiranha>the one mix i posted on twitter..
21:31:54  <ednapiranha>it's like post-happy hardcore
21:31:58  <ednapiranha>which really weirds me out
21:34:32  <domanic>ednapiranha, you've heard the term "vapor wave", right?
21:34:42  <ednapiranha>domanic: only recently :)
21:34:56  <domanic>ednapiranha, it's like dance music or something, but cynical like grunge
21:35:10  <ednapiranha>oh yeah
21:35:15  <ednapiranha>wait yeah someone was showing me these videos
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21:36:39  <ednapiranha>domanic: lol https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtCsda6tJqI
21:37:14  <ednapiranha>domanic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9aR-sDe0wk
21:38:14  <ednapiranha>domanic: im really into oneohtrix point never (not really related but sort of) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqlKiC7fD6E
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21:44:42  <domanic>haha, is "why do you telephone" a smiths sample?
21:45:24  <ednapiranha>lol yes
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21:48:27  <domanic>ednapiranha, really - this is all the same idea as meatspace, except expressed musically
21:48:37  <ednapiranha>domanic: i know.. so
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21:48:41  <ednapiranha>i have a story relating to this
21:49:02  <ednapiranha>my meatspace friend ryan was showing me all these videos and was talking about how he liked the glitch video/art
21:49:10  <ednapiranha>and i was like.. let me make a decentralized service API project
21:49:24  <ednapiranha>but it has a central hub where it just assigns an api token per bundle of services
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21:49:32  <ednapiranha>runs media through the beginning to the end
21:49:41  <ednapiranha>and you get some random output
21:50:39  <ednapiranha>haha this is amazing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKdLhwy4HEM domanic
21:53:02  * therealkoopajoined
21:53:22  <domanic>ednapiranha, wow the video is great too
21:54:33  <domanic>ednapiranha, so an online effects pipeline that is randomly routed?
21:54:48  <ednapiranha>domanic: well i guess i could do random routes!
21:54:55  <ednapiranha>originally i figured it would be intentionally routed
21:54:58  <ednapiranha>but random might be fun
21:55:13  <ednapiranha>domanic: http://revisit.link/
21:55:28  <ednapiranha>it's work in progress.. i had it mutating text but i think i am going to focus on image buffers first
21:56:06  <nathan7>domanic: you don't /need/ it
21:57:21  <domanic>nathan7, what would a spanning tree help with?
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22:45:31  <domanic>nathan7, hey we can fix the header test, and then it should work
22:46:40  <domanic>you just need to merge this commit: https://github.com/dominictarr/scuttlebutt/commit/a5cd59e4c451ea28700c31875a550d3ae085cdcb
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23:51:58  <domanic>pfraze, wondering if we should make attachments a direct part of secure-scuttlebutt
23:52:09  <domanic>I guess I should try fitting it in to see how that goes
23:52:23  <pfraze>domanic, what do you have in mind?
23:52:56  <domanic>I'm also working on the fs/path assignment thing we talked about the other day - this will be useful also just as experience building something on top of ssb
23:53:15  <pfraze>yeah
23:53:22  <domanic>pfraze, I guess the implication is to make it a part of the replication protocol
23:54:54  <domanic>it depends on how the attachment replication thing works\
23:55:13  <pfraze>domanic, can't hurt to try it out. The alternatives in my mind are bit-torrent and http
23:55:30  <pfraze>http's kinda the, if we've got nothing better
23:55:45  <domanic>http won't be very good in full p2p
23:55:57  <pfraze>yeah, would probably need cache hosts
23:56:02  <domanic>maybe wantlist for files < 10mb is best
23:56:02  <pfraze>supernodes
23:56:12  <domanic>and bittorrent for over that?
23:56:20  <pfraze>that seems sensible
23:56:36  * therealkoopajoined
23:57:22  <pfraze>you thinking attachments are pulled after seeing a reference in the stream?
23:57:26  <domanic>so you use torrent for video files but not photos or packages
23:57:34  <domanic>pfraze, yes exactly
23:57:48  <domanic>depending if the app actually wants it
23:58:08  <domanic>maybe the app adds that to a "wantlist" and it's then replicated when it can be
23:58:22  <domanic>or maybe that is sent out as an ephemeral message?
23:58:31  <domanic>or maybe there are hints about who might have it?
23:58:48  <domanic>but what is the simplest thnig that might work
23:58:52  <pfraze>problem is that I know we're in bit-torrent territory, but I dont know that protocol well enough
23:59:01  <pfraze>need to use it as a reference
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23:59:27  <domanic>there are others here that know A LOT about bittorrent mafintosh and feross
23:59:28  <pfraze>needs to be node independent and easy to detect & repair errors
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