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01:41:41  <mmckegg>substack: on my way to raglan roast!
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02:02:14  <ahdinosaur>mmckegg substack: i'll join you there, that's real close to where i am now.
02:02:51  <mmckegg>ahdinosaur: sweet!
02:04:02  <mmckegg>bus is taking ages. nearly made it to courtney place.
02:04:12  <substack>groovy
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02:06:24  <ahdinosaur>domanic: a stop-gap solution would be for the groups to be their own peers in the network and they forward to their members. because more than multi-keys, i'm not sure how the peers can know what address to connect to if they are sending to the members but don't know who they are.
02:07:26  <jjjohnny>domanic, there is yet another way: if u can disappear your peers...
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02:09:23  <domanic>ahdinosaur, that would require a central computer for the group
02:09:43  <domanic>which is something I'd want to avoid
02:09:49  <ahdinosaur>domanic: yeah
02:09:59  <ahdinosaur>hence "stop-gap"
02:10:30  <domanic>right.
02:10:45  <domanic>to some degree you don't need to make a group a exact entity
02:11:08  <domanic>like stackvm
02:13:01  <ahdinosaur>depends on the group. some people may want to mask behind a collective identity, for all kinds of reasons.
02:13:07  * therealkoopajoined
02:13:55  <ahdinosaur>Anonymous comes to mind, but also nations and their flags, leaders, and stuff.
02:15:00  <domanic>sure. but most of those groups are centralized anyway
02:15:19  <domanic>so they already have systems
02:15:41  <domanic>I'm more interested in decentralized groups ;)
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02:16:13  <ahdinosaur>likewise, those are bad examples then. maybe a decentralized software worker coop?
02:16:25  <domanic>yes.
02:16:27  <jjjohnny>if memebrs want to me masked by a group identity, then they need to share that identity
02:16:33  <jjjohnny>s/me/be
02:16:48  <jjjohnny>like signing in as the same user
02:16:54  <domanic>It might be easier to think through simpler systems and build up to those
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02:17:29  <domanic>you could have a group discussion by just encrypting everything with a shared key
02:17:51  <domanic>to add someone to the group, you encrypt the secret to their public key
02:18:20  <domanic>to boot someone from the group, you encrypt everyone else but them a new secret
02:18:56  <domanic>unfortunately this means everyone with write access to the group can invite anyone
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02:19:25  <jjjohnny>create a new group whenever there is a new member
02:19:39  <ahdinosaur>it would be great if it were possible that m of n members had to agree to add a new member
02:19:47  <domanic>but it would probably be good enough for say, organizing a surprize birthday party for someone
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02:20:14  <domanic>also, groups like this are about trust
02:20:15  <jjjohnny>or no new members
02:20:40  <domanic>so you don't really need a crypto system to enforce the rules. the humans can do that.
02:20:48  <ahdinosaur>domanic: :)
02:20:54  <domanic>you only need a crypto system to define the bounds of the group.
02:21:28  <jjjohnny>should trust groups interoperate at the network level?
02:21:33  <ahdinosaur>or give the group a bag of tools
02:21:45  <jjjohnny>to move data?
02:21:48  <domanic>keeping a immutable record would be enough. signatures give you non-repudatability
02:22:19  <domanic>you can certainly have trust relationships between members of different groups.
02:22:35  <domanic>and within a group there should be very strong trust.
02:23:08  <jjjohnny>i mean at an anonymous level, should everybody be moving everyone's data, or only amongst those in your trustogynous zones?
02:23:13  <domanic>so if you trust a few members, you'd also trust the other members, because a friend of a friend is also a friend.
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02:23:37  <domanic>jjjohnny, you only move the data of your friends and their friends.
02:23:48  <domanic>so your "outer circle"
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02:24:01  <jjjohnny>that is a weak network tho
02:24:04  <jjjohnny>weaker
02:24:20  <domanic>jjjohnny, no it really is very strong
02:24:31  <domanic>each node will have thousands of connections
02:25:14  <domanic>if you have 100 friends, and they all have 100 friends, that is 10,000 friends of friends.
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02:26:12  <jjjohnny>10 thousand is a number. do you know what would be another number? priceless.
02:26:55  <jjjohnny>oh wait, no, isNaN(priceless) is true, the movie got it wrong
02:28:01  <jjjohnny>sry, for those of you who missed that discussion: https://twitter.com/johnnyscript/status/496706048724434946
02:28:18  <domanic>jjjohnny, ahdinosaur the way I see it, #stackvm needs to have tens of thousands of "employees" like google does, except writing open source ;)
02:28:57  <domanic>jjjohnny, what is the truth-table of the butt operator?
02:29:11  <jjjohnny>andbutt
02:30:06  <ahdinosaur>domanic: well then let's make it happen :)
02:30:22  <jjjohnny>the truth table for andbutt is: is and also is not, and this achieved with an implicit switching of context
02:30:42  <jjjohnny>i dont have 100 friends :^(
02:31:20  <jjjohnny>implicit contextual switches are bitches brew
02:33:31  <domanic>jjjohnny, yes but your 10 friends are totally awesome
02:34:07  <domanic>worth 10 regular friends each!
02:34:08  <jjjohnny>ah yes, the yesbutts
02:34:19  <domanic>no butts
02:35:52  <jjjohnny>im pretty sure we'remostly yesbutts
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02:36:58  <ahdinosaur>domanic: to start we need a structure for distributing resources, information, and control, such as an open source worker coop. i'm very wary of corps involved in open source, like google it's only a matter of time.
02:37:51  <jjjohnny>the truth table for yesbutt is: is andbuttalso is
02:38:10  <domanic>yesbutt === !!butt?
02:39:03  <jjjohnny>the truth table for andbuttalso is: is or is not, what im saying is
02:39:31  <jjjohnny>domanic: that is true probably
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02:41:26  <domanic>ahdinosaur, so one thing I'm quite interested in to build atop secure scuttlebutt is a refural/reputation system. people can trade ious and do favors for each other, but build up concrete proof of your skills, and *most importantly* your reliability
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02:42:24  <domanic>which is what is actually valuable in a community, but to scale this information to a larger level than can be acomplished with meatputers
02:42:29  <jjjohnny>teh truth table for butt is: is, but now what?
02:43:19  <ahdinosaur>domanic: sweet, well then we're on the same page.
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02:44:03  <domanic>yes! glad to have you on the team!
02:44:21  <domanic>(i.e. the swarm of individuals that are all moving in the same direction ;)
02:44:35  <ahdinosaur>:)
02:45:15  <jjjohnny>domanic: that's now a team, its a gang
02:45:28  <jjjohnny>a gang of gangs is called a threat
02:46:03  <ahdinosaur>domanic: i'm part of a swarm at https://www.loomio.org/g/exAKrBUp/openapp
02:46:59  <jjjohnny>a gang of threats is a school, a threat of gangs is a ghetto
02:47:46  <ahdinosaur>domanic: we're also focused on interoperability between systems, as there are far too many cool ideas silo'd away.
02:48:22  <jjjohnny>jjjohnny delimited conversation files
02:49:46  <jjjohnny>ideas need to be moving faster rn
02:50:18  <jjjohnny>in the direction of downstream
02:50:57  <jjjohnny>and so I present, my startup, the theatre of ideas
02:51:39  <jjjohnny>we'll be performing original ideation, and also do shakespeare in rep
02:53:42  <domanic>bbiab
02:55:22  <jjjohnny>as there are too few women in tech, men will be playing many female oriented gender roles withn the group, unconsciously and unawares
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02:58:39  <jjjohnny>tickets available here, doors that way, and the blood flows out over there
02:59:47  * jjjohnnyimplicitly switches contexts
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03:14:42  <mk30>jjjohnny i think you should have men dressed up as women performing the roles of women in tech
03:14:49  <mk30>like in greek(?) plays
03:15:16  <mk30>is that what you were already saying? did i totally misunderstanda?
03:15:20  <mk30>i think i did >_<
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03:50:46  <jjjohnny>mk30, that's a good idea for a Theatre of Ideas Sketch!
03:51:32  <jjjohnny>scene: meeting room, mid sized startup
03:52:41  <jjjohnny>"ok everyone, the deadline for obamacare is up, and we don't have enough women working here to be at parity with reality.
03:54:07  <jjjohnny>"the law is about to go into effect whereby we must take turns playing the many various gender roles missing from our group.
03:54:37  <jjjohnny>"does anybody know what those are?
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03:56:21  <jjjohnny>scene: males performing stereotypes in front of state gender inspector
03:56:58  <jjjohnny>mk30, maybe you should write it "\
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04:01:49  <mk30>jjjohnny i gift you the idea - it's all yours!
04:06:56  <jjjohnny>nerd aside: the revoltuion has begun! tehc workers will play steers AND queers!!! THE SYSTEM CANNOT HANDLE WHAT IT HAS ACCEPTED!
04:07:47  <jjjohnny>meanwhile, two other nerds have an aside on the other side of the table room.
04:08:11  <jjjohnny>"Eureka!" they both say, swiveling to their asides.
04:08:40  <jjjohnny>their asides occupy the same space, however, and they butt heads.
04:08:48  <jjjohnny>the end
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04:09:22  <jjjohnny>late seating is this way, please...
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04:32:34  <jjjohnny>ahem
04:33:15  <domanic>jjjohnny, <3 your Theater of ideas sketch
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04:33:40  <domanic>but okay - so yes - crypto and secure scuttlebutt
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04:34:05  <domanic>so crypto can be used two ways - encrypting (privacy) and authenticating (security)
04:34:28  <domanic>privacy means no one can read it, security means no one can interfer with it.
04:34:39  <domanic>you can have security without privacy
04:35:03  <domanic>like imagine a glass vault.
04:35:24  <domanic>secure-scuttlebutt is mainly about authentication
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04:36:10  <jjjohnny>i understand now
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04:36:18  <jjjohnny>let me recap
04:36:23  <domanic>you certainly *could* (and probably should) replicate via a secure channel - which would mean no evesdroppers would hear your messages
04:36:34  * sorribas_changed nick to sorribas
04:37:03  <domanic>but you have still copied your data to other people's computers, so it's maybe mid way on the privacy scale
04:37:17  <jjjohnny>so there's the network topology part and the encryption part
04:37:38  <jjjohnny>on top of the secure part
04:40:31  <jjjohnny>if you add encryption, then you can allows holoni to transport data for other holoni
04:40:46  <jjjohnny>and create the true holone
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04:46:33  <domanic>jjjohnny, yes. you can also add encryption _inside_ the database
04:46:41  <domanic>i.e. security
04:46:51  <domanic>like I am now talking to you in a public channel
04:47:03  <domanic>but i could also embed coded messages inside this channel.
04:47:03  <domanic>naheou
04:47:10  <domanic>aokrebkroackrpochkrpoahkntbmeknoacphirc',hrtxmylrxkylrcdg.l,bc,rucm.,pch.,rihntbkuentuhionhiontehirpcg.l,'p
04:47:11  <domanic>etc
04:47:59  <domanic>if you wanted to distribute a single encrypted message that would be quite a good way to do it
04:48:48  <domanic>an evesdropper could see the message - but no one would know who the message is actually for.
04:49:43  * domanicwas compiling list of places worth going to because there is a good song, and am filing this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oBLDbboG7I under "Outer Space"
04:52:50  <domanic>Night All!
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04:53:25  <jjjohnny>thanks you and good night!
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07:35:34  <feross>wow, this is fascinating. there's a site called tip4commit where people can put up bitcoin bounties on github repos
07:35:59  <feross>and whenever there's a commit on the repo, the committer gets 1% of the total pool of BTC
07:37:20  <feross>someone put up like $100 of BTC for webtorrent
07:37:41  <feross>but there are already bad actors going around making trivial commits to get free BTC
07:38:20  <feross>this guy, in particular, https://github.com/benhc123 made 3 separate super trivial commits to webtorrent
07:38:32  <thealphanerd>substack: did you get a chance to check out the brfs pr?
07:38:45  <feross>i already merged 1 of his PRs before i checked out his profile and noticed that he's opened tons of issues today
07:38:57  <feross>all trivial, and all on projects that have tip4commit bounties available
07:39:18  <feross>his 46 PRs for today all all hilariously trviial
07:39:51  <thealphanerd>feross: trivial or not.. adding stuff to license is somewhat reasonable
07:40:08  <thealphanerd>changing license to license.txt is pretty trivial though :P
07:40:35  <feross>these PRs are hilarious: https://github.com/WhisperSystems/TextSecure/pull/1794
07:40:40  <feross>https://github.com/jquery/jquery/pull/1638
07:40:50  <feross>i like how he gets shut down by moxie marlinspike
07:41:50  <feross>this one is funny too: "Renamed licence to license (American English) (https://github.com/loadavg/loadavg/pull/13)
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07:56:22  <substack>feross: bounty sites are a cesspool anyways
07:57:40  <thealphanerd>substack: thanks for responding to the pull request
07:57:51  <thealphanerd>I had a feeling that checking for .css was not the appropriate solution
07:58:07  <thealphanerd>do you have time to take a look at the project causing the problem?
08:00:32  <substack>just don't use brfs in global mode and it should be fine
08:00:41  <thealphanerd>it wasn’t being used in global mode
08:01:01  <substack>and loading css with require() is kind of a bad idea
08:01:06  <substack>and jade and the rest
08:01:41  <thealphanerd>I was attempting to load a css file from a node module
08:01:44  <thealphanerd>using cssify
08:01:57  <thealphanerd>how would you advise packaging css dependencies with a module?
08:03:22  <substack>I don't know
08:03:35  <substack>I haven't done cross-package css loading
08:04:10  <thealphanerd>I’ve been trying to design an architecture for components such as widgets
08:04:13  <thealphanerd>require slider
08:04:58  <feross>substack: what do you think of gittip? i like it because it's simple and doesn't feel evil
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08:05:10  <substack>feross: it's not bad
08:05:13  <thealphanerd>it was actually loading the css file from the node_modules folder that was making weird stuff happen
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08:06:06  <substack>feross: it got weird though with the "radical openness" about how it's run just inviting useless controversy
08:08:18  <feross>substack: how is/was that controversial?
08:08:32  <feross>substack: without knowing the context, it seems purely positive to me
08:09:34  <substack>it got nasty
08:10:53  <substack>https://medium.com/building-gittip/i-resent-you-a6beb5ce19d6 http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Gittip_crisis
08:11:32  <substack>chad was retweeting and acknowledging toxic criticism in such a way that it seemed to others as an endorsement
08:12:51  <substack>a much more productive approach would have just been to disengage but the radical openess ideology got in the way of that
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14:10:16  <substack>https://gist.github.com/substack/f14db666fb0bc04014f6
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15:10:58  <guybrush>can you recommend some module to parse rss-feeds?
15:12:43  <guybrush>this looks cool https://www.npmjs.org/package/feedparser
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15:54:05  <ogd>guybrush: I have a module called xml-json that probably works
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16:53:44  <jjjohnny>substack: https://gist.github.com/substack/f14db666fb0bc04014f6
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17:12:28  <substack>jjjohnny: those are great!
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17:32:35  <yoshuawuyts_>haha, wow
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17:46:31  <jjjohnny>substack: studio.substack been down for me lately
17:46:39  <jjjohnny>also thx!
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18:17:06  <Kesla>domanic: https://github.com/dominictarr/log-bench/pull/1
18:19:13  <yoshuawuyts_>haha, this made me look twice -- https://github.com/dominictarr/log-bench/blob/master/pummel.js#L5
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19:44:46  <owen1_>thealphanerd: take a look at rcss
19:45:08  <owen1_>it injects css into the head of your DOM
19:45:53  <thealphanerd>thanks ow!
19:45:58  <thealphanerd>owen1_ !
19:46:37  <owen1_>thealphanerd: and if u want to see a complete example of a component that uses it - https://github.com/Raynos/mercury/tree/master/examples/login-form
19:46:43  <owen1_>(mercury component)
19:47:23  <owen1_>thealphanerd: join #virtualdom if u like mercury
19:48:02  <thealphanerd>club Raynos !!!
19:48:03  <thealphanerd>:P
19:48:08  <owen1_>pretty much
19:48:17  <thealphanerd>I’ve been playing with ampersand a bit lately
19:49:09  <owen1_>mercury is similar but instead of OO it's FRP. inpired by react and ELM
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19:51:16  <guybrush>im getting "ReferenceError: crypto is not defined" from https://github.com/dominictarr/crypto-browserify/blob/master/rng.js#L7 inside a webworker, anyone else has the same probleme?
19:51:39  <guybrush>in ff31
19:51:47  <guybrush>and nightly
19:57:46  <guybrush>ok i see there is already an open issue https://github.com/dominictarr/crypto-browserify/issues/46
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20:08:50  <Raynos>owen1_: thealphanerd: mercury and ampersand are related
20:09:02  <Raynos>Both modular, both flexible
20:09:10  <thealphanerd>I figured they could probably play nicely together
20:09:19  <Raynos>but differences of opinions at the app architecture level
20:09:20  <thealphanerd>ampersand model + routing with mercury views
20:09:44  <thealphanerd>I got to have a pretty long chat with Henrick at cascadia
20:09:47  <Raynos>thealphanerd: that can work.
20:10:12  <thealphanerd>Raynos: hows ma jumper :P
20:10:17  <Raynos>because both mercury and ambersand give you this flexibility
20:10:20  <thealphanerd>taking good care of it :D
20:10:32  <Raynos>thealphanerd: let me give you your jumper back
20:10:56  <thealphanerd>scp jumper myles@famo.us:~/desk
20:11:16  <thealphanerd>are you coming to the meetup on wednesday?
20:11:33  <thealphanerd>Also… if anyone in here is inteerested I can get you tickets to the Famous meetup wednesday, open bar!
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20:44:07  <jjjohnny>woe is streams
20:45:05  <jjjohnny>idk why i would use through2 instead of through
20:46:08  <chrisdickinson>prevents going into old mode
20:46:20  <chrisdickinson>(which is less of a big deal in streams3, thankfully!)
20:46:48  <chrisdickinson>https://github.com/joyent/node/blob/v0.10/lib/_stream_readable.js#L743-L790
20:47:22  <chrisdickinson>(in streams2, transitioning to flowing mode is a pretty intense experience for a stream!)
20:50:32  <jjjohnny>idk why i would use through2 instead of through "/
20:50:37  <jjjohnny>i guess we gotta sympathise with em
20:50:44  <jjjohnny>oops
20:51:09  <jjjohnny>seems to me u implement a new stream when you need one
20:51:18  <jjjohnny>why implement one and then wait for it to flow?
20:51:56  <jjjohnny>well anyway i rarely ever push the envelope in enterprise coding
20:52:45  <jjjohnny>so many use cases are jus not needed when you aint working with all manner of crazy crap
20:53:41  <jjjohnny>by the time my apps needs all that real programming, everything will be unixified
20:54:00  <jjjohnny>shutup jjjohnny
20:59:32  <chrisdickinson>sorry, was distracted!
21:01:23  <chrisdickinson>streams2 optimizes for not wiggling between "reading!" and "not reading!", or "writing!" and "not writing!" states on the various sides of streams
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21:01:50  <chrisdickinson>putting a stream in that pipeline into flowing mode *can* negate that optimization, as i understand it
21:02:02  <chrisdickinson>(in streams 2, at least)
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21:29:41  <domanic>brianloveswords, hey whats up! we should hang out some time soon!
21:29:53  <brianloveswords>OH YES domanic, what are you doing this evening?
21:30:23  <domanic>brianloveswords, I don't know yet maybe coming to brooklyn?
21:30:27  <domanic>;)
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21:34:50  <brianloveswords>domanic niceeeee lemme just finish up some stuff right quick and then we'll figure out something!
21:35:43  <domanic>cool!
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21:51:07  <brianloveswords>domanic: okay! Where are you now?
21:51:31  <brianloveswords>Oh hey mafintosh thanks for the comment on my gist
21:52:36  <mafintosh>brianloveswords: np :) interesting discussing
21:53:03  <mafintosh>i've been using trailing headers as well actually with a x-status message to indicate the actual status
21:53:24  <brianloveswords>Ah, x-status isn't a bad idea.
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21:55:49  <mafintosh>brianloveswords: we should put that in the gist
21:57:33  <domanic>brianloveswords, midtown
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21:59:40  <domanic>but I can catch the subway somewhere
21:59:53  <domanic>ps. i am hungry
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22:04:32  <brianloveswords>domanic: how do you feel about the Lower East Side? Some of my pals are playing a show around there later tonight and I was thinking about going, so that'd be convenient for me.
22:04:48  <brianloveswords>What kind of food are you thinkin' about?
22:06:28  <domanic>brianloveswords, sounds good - I could eat just about anything
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22:08:24  <domanic>I had a vegan lunch though... so maybe something meaty to compensate
22:09:36  <brianloveswords>domanic: http://themeatballshop.com/ sound good?
22:09:47  <domanic>yes
22:11:06  <brianloveswords>domanic: Okay, it's the 84 Stanton St location, http://themeatballshop.com/locations/#84-stanton
22:12:13  <brianloveswords>domanic: you gonna head out now/soonish?
22:12:25  <domanic>according to google it will take me about 20 min, soonish is okay.
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22:13:51  <brianloveswords>Okay! Let's aim for 6:45ish
22:17:12  <domanic>brianloveswords, cool see you there!
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23:53:29  <jjjohnny>ah, another connection made
23:54:07  <jjjohnny>camera pulls back from the scene to reveal the commentator surveiling said scene
23:55:25  <jjjohnny>commentator: two young people connect over an non mainstream chat service
23:55:40  <jjjohnny>"we see this all the time
23:56:43  <jjjohnny>"you're watching secret cianema
23:57:51  <jjjohnny>"im your host. but really you are the host, and I am the parasite
23:58:14  <jjjohnny>"nonetheless, i am your host, which makes you a parasite on your own parasite
23:59:11  <jjjohnny>"we're all parasites to the system