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| <Domenic> | hmm i don't think i knew that |
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| <Domenic> | sounds like "close" <=> "destroy() has done its thing" |
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| <Raynos> | Domenic: yes, except "close" will emit when you call end() and the stream ends naturally, i.e. it emits for both hard ends and natural ends |
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| <Raynos> | also "close" is deprecated wrt streams2 since its redundant for Writable streams |
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| <Raynos> | SUCH NUANCE |
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| <LOUDBOT> | DIAMONDS ARE FOREVER WHICH IS WHY I JUST GAVE YOU SOME BEADS INSTEAD |
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| <thealphanerd> | anyone going to maker faire this weekend? |
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| <rowbit> | substack, pkrumins: Encoders down: 184.106.99.27 (dev-ie7-3) |
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| <rowbit> | substack, pkrumins: These encoders are STILL down: 184.106.106.66(dev-ie7-1) |
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| <rowbit> | substack, pkrumins: Encoders down: 166.78.114.172 (dev-ie11-2) |
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| <rowbit> | substack, pkrumins: These encoders are STILL down: 184.106.99.27(dev-ie7-3) |
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| 09:42:23
| <ogd> | Raynos: would it be antithetical to mercury's philosophy to use html templates as the basis for the initial app state (as opposed to doing only h())? |
| 09:42:38
| <Raynos> | ogd: no. server side rendering is fine |
| 09:42:53
| <Raynos> | ogd: I was looking into a handlebars -> function (opts) { return h(...) } compiler btw |
| 09:43:39
| <Raynos> | ogd: note that you still want to use h() for anything interactive, and that syncing a virtual tree into a server rendered DOM tree that are NOT identical is non trivial |
| 09:45:20
| <Raynos> | ogd: what are you trying to achieve, the performance of server side rendering or a html based templating system instead of h() ? |
| 09:46:47
| <Raynos> | ogd: btw mercury's philosophy is both "truly modular" as in it allows all opinions and "truly opinionated" as in it has a default set of FRP opinions. |
| 09:46:49
| <ogd> | Raynos: i generally like to have my app templates be plain html files |
| 09:47:12
| <Raynos> | for static things or for interactive things? |
| 09:47:21
| <ogd> | both |
| 09:47:55
| <ogd> | Raynos: so if i had a rendered dom tree |
| 09:48:05
| <ogd> | Raynos: and i wanted to create a virtual tree from it |
| 09:48:22
| <Raynos> | there's no function to turn dom into virtual yet |
| 09:48:37
| <Raynos> | there's an open issue ( https://github.com/Matt-Esch/virtual-dom/issues/49 ) |
| 09:48:40
| <ogd> | ah cool |
| 09:48:48
| <ogd> | yea that would be sweet |
| 09:48:58
| <ogd> | cause then i could make a UI component module that has plain css, html files |
| 09:49:22
| <substack> | Raynos: why is hyperscript baked in? |
| 09:49:39
| <substack> | mercury.h seems somewhat anti-modular |
| 09:50:05
| <Raynos> | ogd: note that having a virtual tree wont do much |
| 09:50:05
| <Raynos> | to apply any changes you need a function that generates a new virtual tree |
| 09:50:05
| <Raynos> | and if you have one you might as well generate the initial virtual tree from the raw data instead of the rendered dom tree |
| 09:51:15
| <ogd> | Raynos: but what if my 'raw data' is just a html file? |
| 09:51:39
| <Raynos> | substack: https://github.com/Raynos/mercury/blob/master/index.js#L5-L29 |
| 09:51:45
| <ogd> | Raynos: e.g. <input value=3>hello</input>, couldn't that be equivalent to h('input', 3) or whatever |
| 09:51:50
| <Raynos> | substack: mercury is supposed to be an opinionated meta model |
| 09:52:17
| <Raynos> | ogd: how do you plan to add interactivity to this static html |
| 09:52:22
| <Raynos> | meta package* |
| 09:52:56
| <Raynos> | substack: "normal" web developers want a more batteries included meta package. "modular" developers can use the individual modules directly |
| 09:55:24
| <ogd> | Raynos: i am trying to write a mercury app now that has a lot of html but only some of it is interactive, so i would ideally be able to load the html and then declare which parts should be interactive, in a similar way to how e.g. https://github.com/Raynos/mercury/blob/master/examples/bmi-counter.js#L51-L56 is declared, but rather than it implicitly creating |
| 09:55:24
| <ogd> | the html it would just augment existing html |
| 09:56:03
| <Raynos> | ogd: so you can write many small mercury apps each anchored to a container elements |
| 09:56:11
| <Raynos> | so you can have a static html page with 5 "interactive" containers |
| 09:56:32
| <ogd> | ahh interseting |
| 09:56:37
| <ogd> | interesting* |
| 09:56:49
| <Raynos> | ogd: there was talk of the notion of a "tombstone", being able to mark a dom element in the dom tree as invisible to mercury |
| 09:56:51
| <Raynos> | so it would skip it |
| 09:57:10
| <Raynos> | this way you can have one mercury app and mark all static container elements as tombstoned |
| 09:57:33
| <ogd> | but then I would still have to have a 1:1 relationship between the virtual dom declaration and the static dom (written in html) |
| 09:57:47
| <ogd> | whereas i really want the virtual dom (in js) to be an 'overlay' |
| 09:58:05
| <ogd> | a sparse overlay, e.g. only declare the interactive parts |
| 09:58:21
| <ogd> | and have the virtual dom module fill in the pieces i didn't declare by reading the html |
| 09:58:34
| <ogd> | (fill in it's virtual tree) |
| 09:58:56
| <ogd> | that way i dont have to write 100% of my app's html in JS, i can just use html for html |
| 09:59:00
| <Raynos> | ogd: no you need a 1:1 relationship between the interactive parts of the static dom and the virtual dom, and mark all the parts that are ingnored in the virtual dom as tombstones |
| 10:00:01
| <Raynos> | ogd: but tbh, i think you can get a lot of milage for just doing `mercury.app($('#thingy'), smallStateA, smallRenderA); mercury.app($('#tingy2'),smallStateB, smallRenderB);` |
| 10:00:23
| <ogd> | yea i'll try that for now |
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| <Raynos> | ogd: you might run into minor perf issues as i havnt done the optimization of having multiple apps share a raf loop yet |
| 10:01:43
| <Raynos> | this will probably not be a big deal |
| 10:02:06
| <rowbit> | Hourly usage stats: [developer: 0, free: 40] |
| 10:03:57
| <substack> | domanic: been using npmd a lot lately while traveling, has been working very well! |
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| 10:05:53
| <domanic> | substack, sweet! |
| 10:06:15
| <substack> | including during a talk |
| 10:08:06
| <domanic> | wow at nodebp? |
| 10:09:54
| <substack> | yep |
| 10:10:12
| <substack> | that projector was nothing but trouble but many of my demos still worked at least |
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| <domanic> | substack, the best thing at jsconf au was that the projector was weird for everyone on mac, |
| 10:13:59
| <domanic> | but when I plugged it in it worked straight away |
| 10:14:15
| <domanic> | So I was like "Linux, it Just Works" |
| 10:14:47
| <Raynos> | ogd: open issues / tweet / let me know if you get stuck |
| 10:15:04
| <Raynos> | ogd: there might be some rough edges of "oh i never thought of that" |
| 10:15:12
| <ogd> | Raynos: cool will do, i'm trying to port this couchapp i wrote 3 years ago to use mercury http://max.iriscouch.com/music/_design/recline/_rewrite |
| 10:16:31
| <Raynos> | ogd: is that a couch database gui or a web app ? |
| 10:16:53
| <ogd> | its a client side app that lets you manage tabular data in couch |
| 10:17:23
| <ogd> | its how i edit the music in my crappy itunes clone http://music.pouch.io/ |
| 10:18:13
| <ogd> | but i need it to work like google spreadsheets where it's live updating |
| 10:18:27
| <ogd> | (and this time it will be on top of dat and not couch) |
| 10:18:29
| <rowbit> | substack, pkrumins: These encoders are STILL down: 184.106.106.66(dev-ie7-1) |
| 10:21:01
| <Raynos> | ogd: cool :) |
| 10:21:19
| <Raynos> | ogd: if you do the whole github + PRs thing, cc me on PRs and ill code review things |
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| <rowbit> | substack, pkrumins: These encoders are STILL down: 166.78.114.172(dev-ie11-2) |
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| <substack> | domanic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cAdJ3Ns1gE |
| 11:50:49
| <domanic> | substack, nice! |
| 11:57:27
| <substack> | domanic: I've also been working on a trick for getting pull-stream style reading from ordinary streams2 streams |
| 11:59:27
| <domanic> | substack, interesting, how does it work? |
| 12:00:54
| <substack> | you can save the buf and next from the _writer callback |
| 12:00:57
| <substack> | *_write |
| 12:01:38
| <substack> | and then when you want to pull you check this._buffer to see if it is already defined and if so you call the supplied callback with cb(buf, next) |
| 12:02:06
| <rowbit> | Hourly usage stats: [developer: 0, free: 46] |
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| <substack> | or probably it should just kick off the next() automatically at that point and call _pull when it wants another chunk |
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| <substack> | and if the chunk hasn't arrived yet it gets scheduled |
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| <ogd> | Raynos: any particular reason why you only exposed require('geval/multiple') and not also require('geval')? |
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| 13:23:59
| <ogd> | Raynos: also why is _diff on my data if I edit it |
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| <ogd> | Raynos: in my render function I ended up having to put special code in to ignore _diff |
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| <rowbit> | substack, pkrumins: These encoders are STILL down: 184.106.99.27(dev-ie7-3) |
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| <substack> | ogd: one of your talks should be about binary and close to the metal and feature a metal solo |
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| <djcoin> | </quit |
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| <Raynos> | ogd: mercury exposes a subset of its dependencies to reduce the bundle size, if you want more things you can require them directly |
| 17:02:28
| <Raynos> | ogd: although im thinking of exposing geval directly |
| 17:02:44
| <ogd> | ahh gotcha |
| 17:02:56
| <ogd> | its just weird to have to do ['foo'] when you only have one event |
| 17:02:59
| <Raynos> | ogd: _diff is a special property that tells you what the set() operation was that causes the data to change |
| 17:03:18
| <Raynos> | I think I need to make _diff non-enumerable |
| 17:03:24
| <ogd> | ahh yea |
| 17:03:49
| <Raynos> | _diff is useful for debugging, `window.state(function (s) { console.log('op', s._diff) })` |
| 17:05:16
| <Raynos> | ogd: so i would expose geval directly on mercury but i dont know what to call it :P .event() and .input() are already taken |
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| <Raynos> | ogd: btw, I have two non trivial examples hidden on branches ( https://github.com/Raynos/mercury/pull/33 , https://github.com/Raynos/mercury/pull/34 ). In case you wanted to look at other examples |
| 17:11:19
| <ogd> | Raynos: oh cool |
| 17:11:24
| <ogd> | Raynos: i think i 'get' it now, mostly |
| 17:11:37
| <ogd> | still getting used to the event triggering |
| 17:12:24
| <Raynos> | the concept of components ( https://github.com/Raynos/mercury/tree/github-issues/examples/github-issues-viewer/components , http://jsfiddle.net/4RUxn/1/ ) |
| 17:12:36
| <Raynos> | is one not shown anywhere else in examples on master currently |
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| <domanic> | Raynos, what is geval? |
| 17:22:11
| <Raynos> | domanic: https://github.com/Raynos/geval#what-about-dominictarrobservable- |
| 17:22:25
| <Raynos> | like observable that don't have a notion of "current state" |
| 17:22:32
| <Raynos> | geval is the dutch word for "event" |
| 17:24:56
| <domanic> | oh I see. the api looks good! |
| 17:25:23
| <domanic> | my dutch isn't very good though, so I thought it was something about evaling |
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| <Raynos> | ogd: I think ill make mercury.input() with no args return a geval and mercury.input([]) return an empty object |
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| <pfraze> | domanic, still digging into that "no deadlocks" claim |
| 18:16:46
| <pfraze> | the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deadlock wiki lists the coffman conditions, which are 4 conditions which must all be true to cause a deadlock. Remove one, apparently the deadlock cant happen |
| 18:17:26
| <pfraze> | in page 64 of http://soft.vub.ac.be/~tvcutsem/talks/presentations/T37_nobackground.pdf, it talks about what the event-loop model of elang does |
| 18:18:06
| <domanic> | aha, it just so happens that I have an erland expert sitting next to me! |
| 18:18:29
| <pfraze> | oh yeah? can he answer this for us? |
| 18:19:20
| <pfraze> | (to finish my thought: as far as I can guess, the event-loop removes either conditions 1 or 2 of coffman's conditions, though I'm not totally sure yet) |
| 18:19:35
| <pfraze> | that is, the event loop + async messaging |
| 18:20:05
| <domanic> | aha, so he says it IS possible to deadlock erlang |
| 18:20:30
| <domanic> | except that it's quite obvious and easy to ignore |
| 18:22:31
| <pfraze> | domanic, it was originally E-lang making this "no deadlocks" claim - but I think erlang has an identical async-messaging and event-loop model, yes? |
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| <Raynos> | ogd: btw there is a `#virtualdom` room for mercury / virtual-dom related questions |
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| <domanic> | oh yes - so it's possible for two nodes to simultaniously send a request to the other |
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| <domanic> | and then block while waiting for the response |
| 18:33:25
| <domanic> | but there are libraries that prevent you from making this simple mistake. |
| 18:34:11
| <pfraze> | could you point me to one or two of them? |
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| <domanic> | pfraze, http://www.erlang.org/doc/man/gen_server.html |
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| <pfraze> | domanic, thanks |
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| <nrw> | anyone know what causes testling to try tests in one browser and then give up? https://ci.testling.com/nrw/level-commit |
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| <nrw> | build is successful. ie 8 tests time out. no other tests run. |
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| <groundwater_> | can i require('https') in browserify? |
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| <groundwater_> | my first attempt didn't work, but i might just be doing it wrong |
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| <groundwater_> | ogd: substack ^ |
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| <rowbit> | substack, pkrumins: These encoders are STILL down: 184.106.99.27(dev-ie7-3) |
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| <rowbit> | substack, pkrumins: At least 10 people waiting in the queue for free servers! (Waiting: 10) |
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| <Raynos> | substack, domanic, ogd, feross, defunctzombie: I wrote a thing about web components based ( https://gist.github.com/Raynos/f055082c473e0484e9d5 ). I tried to figure out what they bring to the table for small modules people. |
| 22:49:23
| <phated> | defunctzombie: I was looking through the zuul commit history and there used to be a programatic API, is that gone now? |
| 22:49:36
| <defunctzombie> | phated: it is still there |
| 22:49:44
| <defunctzombie> | phated: not really documented much but if you look at the tests |
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| <defunctzombie> | you will see how it is used |
| 22:49:52
| <defunctzombie> | also the bin/zuul file uses it |
| 22:50:13
| <phated> | defunctzombie: cool, related, i just want to run zuul on a directory of tests, is that possible with the cli? |
| 22:50:29
| <defunctzombie> | phated: yea |
| 22:50:37
| <defunctzombie> | should accept *.js |
| 22:50:39
| <defunctzombie> | just fine |
| 22:51:02
| <phated> | awesome, thanks |
| 22:51:19
| <phated> | is that globbing from node or *nix command line? |
| 22:51:20
| <Raynos> | if anyone has any other questions / ideas / concepts about web components would be cool to brainstorm, maybe provide feedback |
| 22:51:33
| <defunctzombie> | Raynos: I don't understand the custom elements stuff |
| 22:51:44
| <defunctzombie> | phated: command line iirc |
| 22:51:48
| <phated> | thanks |
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| <Raynos> | defunctzombie: it allows you to say export bootstrap modal component as a widget so designers can just `<bootstrap-modal>` in their prototype static html things |
| 22:52:23
| <defunctzombie> | I see |
| 22:53:12
| <defunctzombie> | modal is weird tho because you might want to create custom modals so it has a combination of templating (maybe) and js interaction |
| 22:54:02
| <defunctzombie> | my thoughts on web components is that there won't be a one size fits all approach :/ |
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| <defunctzombie> | the topic is just too complex and still heavily debated and contested |
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| <defunctzombie> | shadow dom is cool with the only real benefit being that you can limit the scope of custom css |
| 22:54:55
| <Raynos> | defunctzombie: agreed but you can do <bootstrap-tab> </bootstrap-tab/> |
| 22:55:09
| <Raynos> | so it's like a more self documenting thing then the html / css you copy psate from bootstrap docs |
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| <Raynos> | defunctzombie: it also allows you to refactor internal css classes without rbeaking changes |
| 22:55:32
| <Raynos> | defunctzombie: and other things, its a good export format just like UMD |
| 22:56:58
| <defunctzombie> | I haven't given the web components spec stuff too much thought yet |
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| <defunctzombie> | or read over anything written about it other than shadow dom |
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| <domanic> | Raynos, In this bit: import a WC written in angular without having to "suffer" from the "design decisions" of angular. |
| 23:03:45
| <domanic> | you shouldn't quote "suffer" and "design decisions" |
| 23:03:57
| <domanic> | that lessens your scarcasm |
| 23:04:29
| <domanic> | it's more pjerotive if you only scare-quote "design decisions" |
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| <Raynos> | domanic: Sorry, i got cocky |
| 23:05:46
| <domanic> | haha, now I see you scare quoting stuff like "HTML" |
| 23:06:48
| <Raynos> | domanic: i need to de-opinion / de-asshole this entire gist |
| 23:06:49
| <domanic> | if you want to be even more scarcastic than "scare quotes" you can say so-called "scare quotes" |
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| <Raynos> | ok i edited to remove some lulz |
| 23:11:44
| <mikolalysenko> | the shadow dom actually seems like a pretty good idea, but maybe there are horrible consequences I've not realized yet |
| 23:12:20
| <mikolalysenko> | the main reason is interoperability/framework independence of web components |
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| <domanic> | Raynos, your article needs a conclusion |
| 23:15:46
| <domanic> | Raynos, I think the main requirement for modules is encapsulation and nesting - it seems like web components promise that, but do they deliver? |
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| <Raynos> | domanic: i guess i can use a conclusion |
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| <jjjohnny> | tbh i dont see what web components do that a div with a class and an id didnt |
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