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00:00:21  <creationix>the shim works, but is much slower than a native version could be
00:00:28  <pfraze>creationix: I'd like that
00:00:55  <creationix>I’d like that too, or at least an async version of localStorage that’s binary safe
00:01:11  <creationix>my needs for js-git are pretty minimal
00:01:15  <substack>creationix: that would be nice but leveldb is somewhat coupled to node abstractions
00:01:21  <substack>like streams and callbacks
00:01:33  <substack>which I quite like but es6 is going their own direction
00:01:38  <creationix>it doesn’t have to be the leveldown/levelup API
00:01:45  <creationix>I just like the set of features in leveldb
00:01:54  <creationix>just enough to implement real databases easily
00:01:54  <substack>oh yes that is a good set I agree
00:02:02  <substack>iterators are the big thing
00:02:07  <substack>and everything async
00:02:29  <creationix>So es6 promises are set in stone, what’s the status of whatwg streams? @Domenic_
00:02:34  <substack>blob storage as the default would be great too
00:02:45  <jjjohnny>Domenic_: uhg "Maintaining compatibility is the highest priority"
00:03:09  <creationix>I say deprecate it like they did with websql and just put in leveldb
00:03:18  <creationix>how’s that for compatibility
00:03:35  <creationix>(or leave it there, I don’t care really)
00:03:36  <substack>Domenic_: I pasted the link into ##leveldb hopefully rvagg and ogd can chime in
00:04:36  <creationix>I slightly prefer node callbacks over ES6 promises, but I can live with either, especially if all APIs standardized on one
00:04:37  <substack>the nice thing about level is that it's a pretty small set of functionality that has been proven to be able to implement real primitives on top of
00:04:48  <creationix>substack: exactly
00:04:57  <substack>you might possibly be able to get more simple but should definitely not go bigger
00:05:23  <jjjohnny>i'll never use promises, nobody can make me, so stupid
00:05:25  <creationix>possibly, though just about every feature there is hard to implement in userspace
00:05:26  <substack>and also we could re-purpose all the existing level documentation and ecosystem if the level api was mostly compatible
00:05:30  <substack>that would be a huge ecosystem win
00:06:04  <creationix>level + unified streams + unified control-flow + unified modules
00:06:08  <creationix>that would be awesome
00:07:22  <jjjohnny>are they gonna make me do control flow a specific way, im scared
00:07:57  <creationix>my personal favorite control-flow was known as shotgun continuables back in 2010, but it got nowhere when ryah chose the current format instead for node
00:08:12  <creationix>action(arg1, arg2, …)(onSuccess, onError)
00:08:13  <Raynos>creationix: yes, a lot
00:08:17  <Raynos>like a lot a lot
00:08:34  <pfraze>huh, that's interesting
00:08:35  <Raynos>substack: leveldown is not coupled to streams
00:08:50  <substack>Raynos: oh!
00:09:21  <creationix>shotgun continuables from 2010 http://howtonode.org/do-it-fast
00:09:30  <creationix>see the section “we can `do` better"
00:10:01  <owen1>jjjohnny: just found require('q'); in my codebase ):
00:11:15  <creationix>after a few years I changed my continuables to be more node compatable and that’s what Raynos has been pushing for
00:11:16  <jjjohnny>owen1: YIELD
00:12:00  <pfraze>creationix: seems like a lighter mental load compared to promises
00:12:02  <Raynos>continuables are interesting with yield & gens
00:12:07  <Raynos>because then you can use them without using them
00:12:11  <jjjohnny>see what i dont get about promises... are they for control flow, or callback flow. two different things
00:12:17  <creationix>pfraze: that’s the idea. It’s a promise, just a very light-weight one
00:12:35  <Raynos>so promises are pretty bad
00:12:42  <Raynos>but thats a seperate sailed ship
00:12:53  <creationix>jjjohnny: depends on who you ask
00:13:01  <jjjohnny>too bad it wasnt a flaming ship to Valhala
00:13:12  <creationix>A+ adds a *lot* of stuff that makes their scope huge
00:13:12  <Raynos>the very problem promises solves is the very thing thats bad about it
00:13:50  <creationix>Raynos: when I cry at night about promises I dream of someday finishing Jack language and using that to write all my js
00:14:02  <Raynos>i want to work on js-- :P
00:14:02  <creationix>I was originally onboard with coffeescript before it got bloated
00:14:14  <creationix>yeah, candor, jack and js— are have similar goals
00:14:26  <Raynos>except mine has 100% back compat with json :P
00:14:49  <creationix>jack works with JSON too
00:14:53  <creationix>just not JS
00:15:11  <creationix>the data files in tedit are actually JON (Jack Object Notation), but JON is a struct superset of JSON
00:15:15  <pfraze>creationix: does Do have a lift function?
00:15:23  <creationix>pfraze: what’s lift do?
00:15:45  <creationix>and I never touched Do after the proposal was rejected
00:15:59  <pfraze>nothing to a continuable, wraps a non-continuable in an identity continuable so it can be used consistently
00:16:01  <creationix>as a library author, it was better to use what the platform nativly used
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00:16:16  <jjjohnny>creationix: is not a struct superset of a js object a js object?
00:16:27  <creationix>pfraze: oh, like when in Q?
00:16:34  <pfraze>creationix: yeah
00:16:46  <pfraze>also, there's always room for insurgency
00:16:54  <creationix>pfraze: the only problem there is continuables look like functions
00:17:05  <creationix>their constructor is Function
00:17:09  <pfraze>perhaps flag them with a nonenumerable
00:17:15  <pfraze>__continuable__=true
00:17:27  <creationix>sure, but that’s ultra ugly
00:17:34  <creationix>there is no continuable construction library
00:17:40  <creationix>and I like it that way
00:17:46  <pfraze>good point
00:18:26  <creationix>jjjohnny: JON is struct superset of JSON, but not subset of JS
00:18:36  <creationix>JON is subset of Jack, JSON is subset of JS
00:18:44  <creationix>JSON is the only syntax they all have in common
00:19:29  <creationix>Raynos: what’s the value of keeping same syntax as JS?
00:19:33  <jjjohnny>creationix: isn't a struct an object?
00:19:39  <creationix>isn’t that the same as just a lint tool or ultra strict mode?
00:19:57  <creationix>jjjohnny: not “struct”, “strict"
00:20:10  <jjjohnny>:^P
00:20:44  <ogd>Domenic_: is there any way to view all messages in this thread on one page? http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2014AprJun/0149.html
00:21:53  <ogd>Domenic_: e.g. how google groups, gmail display threads
00:22:01  <Raynos>creationix: thats the problem im solving
00:22:09  <Raynos>i want JS
00:22:15  <Raynos>i just want a more aggressive linter
00:22:28  <Raynos>creationix: JS-- is a compile to JS language that is like `echo`
00:22:37  <creationix>well, in that case, you don’t need to write your own compiler or vm :)
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00:23:00  <Raynos>creationix: im basically writing a linter and a doc saying "this is the minimum possible subset of JS that can be used"
00:23:10  <creationix>but I really dislike certain parts of js syntax. Too much 1960’s and 1970’s baggage
00:23:24  <Raynos>creationix: its a pre-emptive reaction to ES6 doubling the syntax of the language
00:23:29  <creationix>lol
00:23:35  <Raynos>fuck syntax. delete delete delete
00:23:47  <Raynos>no anonymous functions, no named function expressions, only function declarations
00:23:50  <Raynos>always semi colons
00:23:55  <Raynos>things like this, remove choice.
00:24:05  <creationix>always function declarations is fun
00:24:21  <creationix>I’m seriously considered that for Jack, but I’m attached to my ultra terse function expression
00:24:24  <Raynos>ill allow inner function declarations because closures are important
00:24:31  <creationix>{arg1,arg2|body}
00:24:42  <Raynos>i dont really care about -> or => im not optimizing for loc
00:25:05  <creationix>for sure, nested function statements is how I often write my complex async callback code
00:25:13  <creationix>it helps to clean things up even if it makes the code taller
00:25:26  <jjjohnny>noting exemplifies the idiocy and daftness of the es6 board than the new equal to / greater than syntax => =>
00:26:06  <creationix>you mean fat-arrow function?
00:26:28  <jjjohnny>creationix: what? i thought it was greater than equal to!
00:26:51  <rowbit1>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 3, free: 13]
00:27:00  <Raynos>creationix: also things like "get rid of ternaries, just use if"
00:27:13  <creationix>except if is not an expression in js
00:27:27  <jjjohnny>and ternaries are sweet
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00:27:53  <creationix>Jack has just if..elif..else..end and the whole thing is an expression
00:28:28  <creationix>sorry, no “end”, I have required braces around the body
00:28:44  <creationix>but no parens around the expression since it’s not needed with required braces
00:29:09  <creationix>I wish Brendan’s proposal to change JS that way went through
00:29:31  <creationix>`if expr { body }` is much better than if (expr) body; gotofail;
00:42:21  <Raynos>?
00:47:09  <creationix>Raynos: https://brendaneich.com/2010/11/paren-free/
00:47:28  <chrisdickinson>Raynos: have you played with jsl, re: linting?
00:47:42  <Raynos>i dont get why you would want paran-free
00:47:55  <Raynos>chrisdickinson: havnt played with it
00:47:59  <chrisdickinson>npm.im/jsl -- it comes with some built-in rules, but it's designed to be a "build your own linter"
00:48:08  <chrisdickinson>it's an AST-aware linter (like eslint)
00:48:09  <Raynos>Im actually going to just build a parser for my js--. i.e. a spec in code & tests :)
00:48:16  <Raynos>my backend for js-- will just be trivial
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01:17:53  <rowbit1>substack, pkrumins: Encoders down: 184.106.99.27 (dev-ie7-3)
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02:46:27  <Domenic_>creationix: we're trying to nail down whatwg streams asap, but nothing's set in stone yet
02:47:33  <creationix>it’s probably more complex than I would like I’m guessing
02:47:41  <creationix>not that it’s a bad thing, more a reflection of my tastes
02:47:53  <creationix>I’m sure it’s better than whatever W3C would have come up with
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05:13:56  <jjjohnny>do any the browsers use libuv?
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05:42:25  <rowbit1>substack, pkrumins: These encoders are STILL down: 50.57.171.229(dev-ie6-2)
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05:54:51  <jjjohnny>the answer is no, so they'll never be as evented as node
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06:03:38  <jjjohnny>exxcept in one important place
06:03:41  <jjjohnny>between processes
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13:12:57  <rowbit1>substack, pkrumins: These encoders are STILL down: 184.106.99.27(dev-ie7-3)
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16:45:20  <Domenic_>creationix: I think the complexity comes mostly as a result of wanting the same perf as node streams, e.g. allowing sync data flow. comments welcome though, especially ones that simplify what's there instead of starting over with something entirely new.
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17:42:28  <rowbit1>substack, pkrumins: These encoders are STILL down: 50.57.171.229(dev-ie6-2)
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18:33:04  <thlorenz>shortest module name ever: https://github.com/thlorenz/1t
18:33:11  <thlorenz>at least for me
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18:41:49  <ogd>ok i have two processes that both want to access the same leveldb
18:42:08  <ogd>so i have the first one start a server, and the second is a client (over a http long lived rpc request)
18:42:34  <ogd>i also have a CLI API for my thing
18:43:15  <ogd>so if i wanna do something like `cat | write` where `cat` is process A (the server) which reads all the data from leveldb, and `write` is B (the client) which writes data to a leveldb write stream
18:43:33  <ogd>i have this crazy case now where A has to wait for all connections to close to exit, since its the server
18:43:47  <ogd>and B connects to A to send the data piped to B to leveldb to get written
18:44:25  <ogd>B is getting data on stdin from A, but A never exits to stdin never closes
18:44:39  <ogd>so stdin.on('end never fires for B, meaning B has no way of knowing when A is done writing
18:44:58  <ogd>so B can't close it's rpc request, meaning A's server never unrefs
18:45:11  <ogd>anyone have a suggestion? do I have to send a null byte or something?
18:45:13  <ogd>substack: o/
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19:04:11  <thlorenz>feross: btw aware this is a joke, but playing along to make it more fun :)
19:07:13  <feross>thlorenz: actually, it seems pretty real: http://www.fastcoexist.com/3028933/these-backpacks-for-cows-collect-their-fart-gas-and-store-it-for-energy#1
19:09:13  <thlorenz>feross: not convinced: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/30/cow-burps-not-cow-farts-t_n_193935.html
19:10:37  <ogd>re: my question above, solved by manually closing stdout via `fs.close(1)`, https://github.com/maxogden/dat/commit/12d4a7b64aab
19:12:49  <thlorenz>ogd: you should probably blog about that - that's kinda tricky
19:12:58  <rowbit1>substack, pkrumins: These encoders are STILL down: 184.106.99.27(dev-ie7-3)
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19:26:52  <rowbit1>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 0, free: 46]
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20:26:52  <rowbit1>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 0, free: 26]
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20:54:53  <pfraze>bobalice133@hushmail.com9Qnaaumg1YEBQnC9btSq
20:54:59  <pfraze>wow
20:55:02  <pfraze>that was very unfortunate
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20:55:42  <pfraze>careful with keepass's autoentry...
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21:25:27  <Raynos>pfraze: you need a new thing :)
21:26:51  <rowbit1>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 2, free: 19]
21:27:25  <pfraze>aye, going to have to ditch that address :)
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22:50:43  <Raynos>jesusabdullah, ogd: would love some brain power on https://github.com/jesusabdullah/browserify-cdn/issues/75
22:51:36  <jesusabdullah>one sec Raynos
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23:05:33  <jesusabdullah>Raynos: commented
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23:42:28  <rowbit1>substack, pkrumins: These encoders are STILL down: 50.57.171.229(dev-ie6-2)