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00:47:19  <rowbit1>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 0, free: 11]
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00:56:16  <rowbit1>substack, pkrumins: These encoders are STILL down: 184.106.106.66(dev-ie7-1)
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01:27:16  <rowbit1>substack, pkrumins: Encoders down: 50.56.27.70 (dev-ie6-1)
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02:23:34  <defunctzombie>groundwater: should just add asyncListeners support to superstack ;)
02:23:49  <groundwater>defunctzombie what is superstack?
02:24:03  <defunctzombie>https://github.com/defunctzombie/node-superstack
02:24:28  <defunctzombie>built from a coffeescript project that did the same thing (but I wanted js not cs)
02:24:30  <groundwater>defunctzombie wow me and ogd were just talking about this, check out npmjs.org/stackup
02:24:45  <defunctzombie>yea
02:24:50  <defunctzombie>I saw it on my github feed
02:24:54  <defunctzombie>that is why I pinged you :)
02:24:58  <groundwater>defunctzombie awesome, ahha
02:25:05  <groundwater>though it just uses the AL pollyfill right now
02:25:10  <groundwater>what's the overhead of superstack?
02:25:14  <defunctzombie>that is cool
02:25:19  <defunctzombie>I didn't know about that polyfill
02:25:25  <defunctzombie>certainly makes the code cleaner
02:25:29  <groundwater>yah, async-listener
02:25:46  <groundwater>defunctzombie the AL api is likely being held back from 0.12
02:25:54  <defunctzombie>ah
02:25:55  <groundwater>it was not ready
02:26:01  <defunctzombie>tragic
02:26:05  <defunctzombie>the overhead
02:26:07  <groundwater>no, trust me
02:26:07  <defunctzombie>there is some
02:26:11  <groundwater>but good stuff will happen
02:26:14  <defunctzombie>but I guess it just depends what your needs are
02:26:25  <groundwater>and will happen soon
02:26:33  <defunctzombie>my current use cases prefer the longer stack traces over any minor overhead
02:26:42  <defunctzombie>the overhead is basically a new error created
02:26:43  <groundwater>yah
02:26:50  <groundwater>i think stackup incurs 2x latency overhead
02:26:53  <defunctzombie>for all the calls
02:26:58  <defunctzombie>I benched it once
02:27:00  <groundwater>from the other modules i've heard, that's like a 100x improvement
02:27:02  <defunctzombie>I don't think it was 2x
02:27:19  <defunctzombie>https://github.com/defunctzombie/node-superstack/blob/master/perf.js
02:27:37  <defunctzombie>tho I must admit the benchmark is probably shitty haha
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02:28:05  <groundwater>lol
02:28:25  <groundwater>yah, though if you're running an express app the overhead gets gobbled up in the noise of running express
02:28:38  <defunctzombie>somewhat
02:28:46  <defunctzombie>we don't carry too much overhead in express
02:29:05  <defunctzombie>I would say almost no overhead really for a thin route
02:29:15  <defunctzombie>so I ran perf and I get about 1.2x slower
02:29:30  <defunctzombie>on the perf numbers with whatever that is perfing haha
02:29:33  <groundwater>that's impressive
02:29:46  <defunctzombie>it could be a shitty perf test tho as I said haha
02:29:51  <groundwater>lol
02:29:55  <defunctzombie>but it would be nice to create a perf suite for libs like this
02:30:02  <defunctzombie>and just run it against various ones
02:30:09  <groundwater>yah, or just perf suite for node in general
02:30:17  <defunctzombie>they have some
02:30:19  <groundwater>there is a lack of high-level benchmarking
02:30:30  <groundwater>and IMHO an over-focus on micro-benchmarking
02:30:41  <defunctzombie>and we *kinda* perf a few things in express, but really it isn't an issue
02:30:49  <defunctzombie>for non-cpu things
02:30:59  <defunctzombie>things like parsers benefit from perf more
02:31:08  <defunctzombie>and those don't typically use event/io stuff
02:31:18  <defunctzombie>so this doesn't really slowdown their fastpaths
02:32:55  <groundwater>defunctzombie does your long-stack module just monkeypatch the world too?
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02:33:07  <defunctzombie>yep
02:33:13  <defunctzombie>absolutely
02:33:22  <defunctzombie>monkey patching is awesome :D
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02:35:34  <groundwater>haha
02:35:53  <groundwater>yah, stackup is kinda just a demo app i whipped up to work with ALs
02:36:40  <defunctzombie>I'm excited about potential better error handling in the future but haven't been keeping any tabs on it
02:36:51  <defunctzombie>focus on other stuff for now.. so I hope it just appears one day :)
02:37:21  <groundwater>error handling was never part of ALs original design
02:37:35  <groundwater>but better error handling is definitely required
02:37:56  <groundwater>or at least teaching people how to do errors better
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03:47:19  <rowbit1>Daily usage stats: [developer: 150, free: 40]
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04:38:43  <groundwater>ogd added badges to https://github.com/groundwater/node-lib-http-rpc and https://github.com/groundwater/node-lib-job-queue
04:47:19  <rowbit1>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 0, free: 9]
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04:59:16  <rowbit1>substack, pkrumins: These encoders are STILL down: 50.56.32.168(dev4)
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05:11:16  <rowbit1>substack, pkrumins: Encoders down: 50.56.32.168 (dev4)
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05:26:39  <dominictarr>rvagg, ping?
05:31:45  <ogd>groundwater: now put em on stackup
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05:39:15  <dominictarr>ogd, what is stackup?
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05:47:19  <rowbit1>Hourly usage stats: [free: 21]
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06:50:58  <rowbit1>/!\ ATTENTION: (default-local) odwyerrob@... successfully signed up for developer browserling plan ($20). Cash money! /!\
06:50:58  <rowbit1>/!\ ATTENTION: (default-local) paid account successfully upgraded /!\
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06:57:00  <rook2pawn>my weekend project -> http://curlpaste.com ... made with hyperstream and a forked version of ecstatic that takes streams
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06:59:37  <rook2pawn>if anyone had a minute, the last bit of HTML gets cut off when i pipe hyperstream out to res
06:59:45  <rook2pawn>https://github.com/rook2pawn/node-ecstatic/blob/mysweet-passthrough-pull-request/lib/ecstatic.js#L203-L206
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07:03:16  <gildean>rook2pawn: i'm guessing it's the res.end call that you make immidiately after the fileStream emits 'end'
07:03:49  <gildean>while at that moment there might still be data going through the passthrough stream
07:04:26  <gildean>so the end gets called before all the data has gone through the passthrough
07:04:44  <gildean>that's my theory from a quick look
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07:47:20  <rowbit1>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 1, free: 26]
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08:47:19  <rowbit1>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 1, free: 47]
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09:14:36  <rowbit1>substack, pkrumins: testling server safari6 (osx, browserling1 user) is down!
09:14:46  <rowbit1>substack, pkrumins: testling server android (osx, browserling1 user) is down!
09:24:10  <rowbit1>substack, pkrumins: testling server iphone6, ipad6 (osx, browserling1 user) is down!
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09:47:19  <rowbit1>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 0, free: 38]
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10:47:20  <rowbit1>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 1, free: 36]
11:06:17  <rowbit1>substack, pkrumins: These encoders are STILL down: 50.56.32.168(dev4)
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11:47:19  <rowbit1>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 0, free: 48]
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14:12:38  <navaru>What is this all about: Hourly usage stats: [developer: 0, free: 25]?
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14:47:20  <rowbit1>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 2, free: 71]
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15:11:18  <rowbit1>substack, pkrumins: At least 10 people waiting in the queue for free servers! (Waiting: 10)
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15:22:55  <pkrumins>navaru: it's browserling usage statistics
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15:32:50  <navaru>pkrumins: thanks
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17:06:18  <rowbit1>substack, pkrumins: These encoders are STILL down: 50.56.32.168(dev4)
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17:25:27  <terinjokes>defunctzombie_zz: do you have a rough idea for handling reporters?
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17:47:20  <rowbit1>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 2, free: 42]
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18:47:19  <rowbit1>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 3, free: 55]
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18:53:49  <rowbit1>substack, pkrumins: A developer is waiting in the queue for explorer/9.0
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19:11:36  <defunctzombie>terinjokes: ?
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20:33:46  <terinjokes>defunctzombie: i was looking at creating another reporter for zuul, rather than just the current print-to-terminal
20:33:55  <terinjokes>didn't know if you had any thoughts on that
20:34:12  <defunctzombie>don't really have thoughts on it
20:34:18  <defunctzombie>all the print to terminal stuff should be in bin/zuul
20:34:19  <defunctzombie>iirc
20:34:28  <terinjokes>defunctzombie: yes, it is
20:34:36  <defunctzombie>there was talk of making a better ncurses based reporter
20:34:42  <defunctzombie>so you just had a line per browser or something
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20:34:51  <defunctzombie>but I haven't spent any time on it
20:35:14  <defunctzombie>cause I am happy with the current reporting, but certainly open to considering suggestions
20:35:33  <terinjokes>defunctzombie: yea, it gets the job done
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20:35:56  <terinjokes>we just have an additional business requirement, and figured i could use the time to do an alternative reporter
20:36:12  <terinjokes>if you don't have any ideas, i'll run with it and get back to you for a review
20:36:58  <defunctzombie>yep, but certainly could be better
20:37:10  <defunctzombie>sounds good
20:38:01  <terinjokes>the only one i have against the current reporter is not handling the case where a browser doesn't spin up
20:38:06  <terinjokes>which i opened a ticket for
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22:14:21  <dominictarr>http://microship.com/resources/gonzo-engineering.html
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22:52:46  <pfraze>thlorenz, spinup looks interesting, by versions you mean like branches?
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22:57:33  <pfraze>dominictarr, good article. What's the routing work you're doing for cyphernet?
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22:59:04  <jjjohhny>dominictarr: i dont think wheel work on water, and those wings will never fly
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23:01:21  <dominictarr>pfraze, so, my new idea is basically a secure version of scuttlebutt
23:01:42  <dominictarr>it's very much like a distributed twitter.
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23:02:15  <dominictarr>each node can create it's own personal "blockchain"/feed and other nodes can "follow" that
23:03:49  <dominictarr>so you replicate the data of anyone you are following... which means that followers can get your data from either you, or someone who follows you.
23:05:02  <dominictarr>(need to do a simulation to estimate whether this will work for users with large follower counts, etc)
23:05:19  <pfraze>ok, so is it: because cyphernet's addressing is global, this narrows how much of the global corpus you replicate?
23:06:20  <rowbit1>substack, pkrumins: These encoders are STILL down: 50.56.32.168(dev4)
23:06:27  <dominictarr>um, this is a related but fairly separate idea to cyphernet
23:06:35  <pfraze>ok
23:06:37  <dominictarr>cyphernet is document/app/dataset focused
23:06:47  <dominictarr>but this is user/author focused
23:07:13  <dominictarr>but I think this is a good match for how people actually build apps these days. everything is basically just twitter + something.
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23:08:01  <dominictarr>my goal is to create a totally distributed protocol that is easy to build on top of
23:08:09  <pfraze>ok, so might this be more like a social bit-torrent (but not bit-torrent) network?
23:08:18  <dominictarr>yeah
23:08:31  <pfraze>gotcha
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23:08:41  <dominictarr>problem with bit torrent is it only replicates a static dataset
23:09:00  <dominictarr>at the other end of the scale bitcoin replicates a global dataset
23:09:13  <dominictarr>(as a linked list)
23:09:18  <pfraze>ah, yes, ok
23:09:31  <dominictarr>this is in the middle - replicate linked lists per author
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23:10:54  <dominictarr>look at how people are building lots of crazy stuff on top of the bitcoin protocol. most of it is stupid, but it forms a hackable basis for totally distributed systems.
23:11:13  <pfraze>would ideas like, say, namecoin be implementable with this?
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23:12:00  <dominictarr>sure, easy. except name coin is global - but with this you could do a friends and family version of namecoin
23:12:20  <dominictarr>or you could do a mini search engine.
23:13:04  <dominictarr>I'd index the part of the internet that I use, and share Cool Links, and index the parts of the web that my friends share
23:13:20  <dominictarr>then I could search my local index of the web that we all use
23:14:07  <dominictarr>If I followed people who are share my interests, id get the parts of the web they use
23:14:39  <pfraze>interesting. You could probably do in-place updating as well, yes?
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23:15:03  <dominictarr>what do you mean by "in-place updating"?
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23:15:38  <pfraze>as in, a document that changes over time or is superceded by versions
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23:16:15  <pfraze>I'm thinking now about the replicated web application
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23:16:43  <dominictarr>pfraze, don't do that.
23:16:49  <dominictarr>make it immutable
23:16:52  <dominictarr>where possible
23:17:11  <dominictarr>immutability makes replication and security way way way easier
23:17:23  <pfraze>ok
23:17:29  <jjjohhny>we will not be silences
23:17:31  <jjjohhny>d
23:17:35  <dominictarr>it's possible to do "updates" immutably
23:17:56  <pfraze>updating pointers?
23:18:09  <dominictarr>yeah, exactly. you just have a linked list of changes/snapshots (like in git)
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23:18:50  <dominictarr>better to put that in the application layer though, because there any too many ways you can do that.
23:19:18  <dominictarr>it's a bad idea to favor one of them
23:19:50  <pfraze>yeah. Ok well this is interesting, keep me updated
23:20:44  <dominictarr>will do, it's a backburner at the moment. Trying to get a few old projects moving along first. sturdy foundations and all that!
23:22:33  <pfraze>yes indeed :)
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23:26:31  <dominictarr>pfraze, I also have another idea I should discuss with you
23:26:46  <dominictarr>it's about a graphics protocol
23:26:53  * anoemijoined
23:27:17  <dominictarr>we need a protocol that is as flexible as the terminal, but graphical
23:28:02  <dominictarr>but graphics is nearly always generated by a program linked to a library and doing calls that create the graphics, etc
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23:28:32  <dominictarr>there are file formats... so you can generate graphics by creating a svg or html file
23:28:37  <dominictarr>and then opening it
23:29:08  <dominictarr>but if you want to change that in realtime... you have to have a program (i.e. javascript) that runs in it's context and updates it.
23:29:11  <dominictarr>...
23:30:09  <dominictarr>but the interesting thing about the terminal, is that it can send changes to the rendering in realtime - the "file format" is append only & duplex!
23:30:39  <dominictarr>like, you can do `vim | tee out` in one terminal
23:31:06  <dominictarr>and then do `tail -f out` in another, and you have got a realtime copy of vim!
23:31:38  <dominictarr>an instant shared desktop, that just falls out of the protocol!
23:32:06  <dominictarr>but getting the web to do that would require some serious hacks
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23:34:13  <pfraze>dominictarr, funny you mention that, that's one of my projects
23:34:49  <dominictarr>pfraze, yeah - you have something like this for guipedia, right?
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23:35:31  <pfraze>dominictarr, yes, though the guipedia project was canned after a design change invalidated the idea
23:36:28  <pfraze>or, rather, made a lot of guipedia did superfluous
23:36:28  <dominictarr>right - but, it's a part of the big idea which guipedia was a facet of
23:36:28  <pfraze>yes yes- this: http://httplocal.com/
23:37:38  <pfraze>and a more related example would be https://github.com/pfraze/nquery
23:37:55  <dominictarr>pfraze, what does agent(..).follow(..) do?
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23:38:40  <pfraze>it sends a head request to the url given to agent() so that it can retrieve the Link header. Follow queries the links by attribute, then produces a new agent at the matching link's location
23:39:27  <dominictarr>that doesn't make sense, what is it _for_?
23:39:28  <pfraze>follows can be chained, and the resulting agent then has ajax calls run from it
23:39:49  <pfraze>endpoint discovery
23:40:12  <dominictarr>so, it finds the local servers?
23:40:13  <pfraze>links are typed and include metadata attributes
23:40:29  <pfraze>yes, or remote as well
23:40:40  <dominictarr>can http local push realtime changes to the UI?
23:40:46  <pfraze>if given a URL, it can issue a HEAD request and look for the "self" link to learn what it is
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23:40:56  <pfraze>yes
23:41:11  <dominictarr>how does that work? does it need polling?
23:43:10  <dominictarr>can I have an element that is updated or deleted without having to run custom JS to do that?
23:43:21  <pfraze>no polling. HTTP request and response objects emulate the behavior of http between functions without necessarily putting the data through a socket. If sending a request from one function to another, it's like a gussied-up event-emitter.
23:43:31  <pfraze>yes
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23:44:21  <dominictarr>so, how does it update some element? what does that look like over the wire?
23:45:13  <pfraze>nquery gives an example of that
23:45:35  <pfraze>the readme shows the wire
23:46:35  <pfraze>in that case, it doesn't take much advantage of http, saving the use of request transactions to determine the lifetime of jquery cursors
23:47:19  <rowbit1>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 0, free: 35]
23:47:55  <pfraze>but the premise is the same: a server function would act as the interface between network messages and dom operations
23:48:26  <dominictarr>aha! yes
23:48:35  <dominictarr>that is very much like what I'm thinking
23:48:51  <dominictarr>and append only json protocol
23:49:22  <dominictarr>where you can declaratively update the interface
23:51:38  <dominictarr>pfraze, can I use nquery over websockets? and a standard js on the client? without using your VM stuff?
23:52:17  <pfraze>yep
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23:54:01  <pfraze>websocket support isn't in there out-of-the-box, but writing it in would take me an hour at most. There's a setprocess for adding new messaging channels
23:54:05  <pfraze>set process*
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