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01:43:21  <ogd>substack: im working on a conceptual redesign of browserify.org, early screenshot http://i.imgur.com/VhZdm5t.png
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01:53:02  <eugeneware>ogd: nice!
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04:59:05  <rowbit1>substack, pkrumins: These encoders are STILL down: 50.56.32.168(dev4)
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05:08:40  <ogd>WIP http://maxogden.github.io/browserify-website/
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06:08:35  <groundwater>ogd that's great
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06:24:34  <eugeneware>ogd: Have you considered a career as a front-end developer? :-)
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14:07:06  <rowbit1>substack, pkrumins: At least 10 people waiting in the queue for free servers! (Waiting: 10)
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15:05:46  <creationix>Domenic_, howdy
15:06:00  <Domenic_>creationix, sup
15:06:18  <creationix>I was wondering if you knew why promises aren't lazy be default
15:06:25  <creationix>that's one of the things I love about continuables
15:06:27  <Domenic_>hmm
15:06:51  <creationix>coglan's article about using lazy promises to solve dependency graphs is great
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15:07:49  <Domenic_>part of the issue is that .then() is traditionally a transformation
15:07:58  <Domenic_>it's weird that if you have doXHR().then(...) that does the XHR
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15:08:14  <Domenic_>but then when you write getJSON(...) { return doXHR().then(JSON.parse); }
15:08:19  <Domenic_>you lose the laziness
15:08:35  <Domenic_>(does that make sense? I can write it out a bit clearer if desired.)
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15:08:50  <creationix>so basically lazy is hard to compose
15:08:57  <creationix>that's a shame
15:08:58  <Domenic_>well, not necessarily
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15:09:10  <Domenic_>you need to introduce a second function, e.g. .force(onFulfilled, onRejected)
15:09:20  <Domenic_>and turn .then() into a pure transformer that doesn't fire the work
15:10:26  <Domenic_>i think that model has a lot of potential promise
15:10:38  <Domenic_>i guess to fit with current paradigms you'd like .then() be the forcer and add e.g. .transform()
15:10:40  <creationix>or keep then as-is, but add a new function that is transform only
15:10:45  <creationix>lol, exactly
15:11:07  <creationix>My biggest issue with promises has always been the overhead
15:11:11  <Domenic_>but as for why it has not been implemented, i am sad to say probably history. nobody has experimented with it to the extent they have with existing promises
15:11:28  <creationix>I don't mind the abstraction. The syntax is meh, but I'm not sure you can do much better in JS
15:11:35  <Domenic_>i am hopeful that since i spent so much time ensuring ES6 promsies are subclassable we will be able to do these kinds of experiments very easily in the future.
15:11:59  <creationix>so w3c promises looks a little different than Q right?
15:12:11  <Domenic_>much fewer methods really
15:12:19  <creationix>yeah, I like that actually
15:12:30  <Domenic_>i still am sad we couldn't get .finally in.
15:12:36  <Domenic_>that's the only one i'm really missing
15:12:44  <creationix>what did that do?
15:13:23  <Domenic_>.finally(cb) is kind of like .then(cb, cb) except it has the same kind of error-propagation semantics as try/finally
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15:13:35  <creationix>oh, I see
15:13:40  <Domenic_>https://github.com/domenic/promises-unwrapping/issues/18
15:13:52  <creationix>so you just duplicate your "finally" code in the current API
15:14:02  <Domenic_>well and you lose some benefits of a proper finally
15:14:03  <creationix>I rarely use try/finally in practice since I never think of it
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15:15:00  <Domenic_>mainly because try/catch isn't so useful in JS :P
15:15:10  <Domenic_>generators will save us though
15:15:45  <creationix>I'm still trying to wrap my head around error handling in generators
15:15:59  <creationix>but yes, they do make try/catch actually useful again in async code
15:17:05  <creationix>Domenic_, https://twitter.com/mattpodwysocki/status/444491385052606464
15:18:39  <Domenic_>tbh i don't think that works so well in Rx
15:18:49  <Domenic_>it's always one of the hardest things to explain and get right
15:19:10  <Domenic_>i don't have much rx experience but given how every rx talk i see opens with carefully trying to guide the listener through the difference, it seems like a bad fit.
15:19:50  <creationix>well, as long as it's easy to create a lazy promise, then the module example is simple
15:20:07  <Domenic_>yeah, that should definitely be doable
15:21:13  <creationix>Domenic_, so is there a good polyfill for w3c promises in node? The latest 0.11.12 release doesn't seem to have them yet.
15:22:15  <creationix>I hope o.12 final gets them. (I'd also like generators without needing a flag, but that's doubtful)
15:23:19  <Domenic_>creationix: ES6 promises (ES6 via TC39, not W3C) but yeah, https://github.com/jakearchibald/es6-promise/ is pretty good
15:23:35  <Domenic_>not quite as fast as Bluebird but the RSVP guys hold their own. Faster than most others.
15:24:09  <Domenic_>(it is extracted as a subset of RSVP, is why I mention that.)
15:25:11  <creationix>so the new es6 promises have nothing to do with w3c then?
15:25:19  <Domenic_>indeed
15:25:34  <creationix>fair enough. I'll adjust my language
15:25:44  <Domenic_>Well, W3C APIs are starting to adopt them, I guess.
15:26:13  <creationix>I can't even begin to imagine all async apis being changed to use promises. That's a huge breaking change
15:27:25  <creationix>I wonder why promises made it through V8 so fast, but generators are still behind a flag
15:27:35  <creationix>is it politics or promises simply being easier to implement?
15:27:40  <Domenic_>I think promises will still be behind a flag in V*
15:27:49  <creationix>they are not in latest chrome
15:27:53  <Domenic_>but *Blink* has their own implementation
15:28:03  <creationix>ahh, so that's not v8
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15:28:35  <Domenic_>yeah, kind of a weird split, but apparently the whole event-loop bridging story hasn't been totally figured out
15:28:44  <Domenic_>since V8 doesn't have much notion of an event loop I guess?
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15:28:58  <Domenic_>or at least wasn't figured out when they started imlementing
15:28:58  <creationix>promises need some sort of nextTick/asap thing right?
15:29:02  <Domenic_>yeah
15:29:09  <creationix>that makes sense
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15:29:44  <creationix>two things I would add to the language, asyncListener style hook and fast nextTick style feature
15:29:55  <creationix>though the second could be implemented with the first
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15:30:05  <creationix>and you know how much I hate adding things
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15:30:41  <Domenic_>zomg we seriously need fast nextTick
15:31:01  <rowbit1>/!\ ATTENTION: (default-local) dmorgan@... successfully signed up for developer browserling plan ($20). Cash money! /!\
15:31:01  <rowbit1>/!\ ATTENTION: (default-local) paid account successfully upgraded /!\
15:31:08  <Domenic_>there's enough people that want it we'll definitely get it on the ES7 train (finalized early 2015 is the plan)
15:31:28  <Domenic_>asyncListener would be sweet, I'll put that on my list. i guess the node api is still being iterated on though
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15:32:48  <creationix>Domenic_, I'm not set on the asyncListener API. I just want a way to hook into *all* event sources
15:32:59  <creationix>so many things are possible with that in place
15:33:06  <creationix>the trick though is making it fast
15:33:28  <Domenic_>yeah, exactly, i feel like if we can make node figure out the balance there, we can just yoink it
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15:34:07  <creationix>I wish node had added this years ago. It would have been a little slower, but we would have gotten used to having it and know more about it
15:34:22  <creationix>but ryan was afraid it would hurt his benchmarks and that was top priority
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16:59:07  <rowbit1>substack, pkrumins: These encoders are STILL down: 50.56.32.168(dev4)
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17:33:56  <groundwater>rvagg you should put a "fork me" banner on http://openopensource.org/
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17:45:57  <ogd>i manually openopensourced 2 or 3 repos yesterday, it felt good
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17:48:42  <groundwater>ogd that's the spirit
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18:18:27  <ogd>substack: is there a list available of all modules on testling?
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18:18:53  <creationix>chrisdickinson, does it look like pako's low-level inflate APIs will work for packfile streams?
18:19:01  <creationix>I assume real git uses zlib, so it should be possible
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18:20:11  <chrisdickinson>i haven't looked to closely
18:20:14  <chrisdickinson>s/to/too/g
18:20:26  <chrisdickinson>but if they're mimicing zlib, it should work
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18:37:32  <ogd>Raynos: can we get a short pro-browserify quote from you as a representative of Uber for the new browserify website?
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18:37:49  <Raynos>ogd: we dont use browserify >_>
18:37:53  <ogd>Raynos: really?
18:37:58  <ogd>Raynos: i was fed false information :(
18:38:04  <Raynos>im not sure
18:38:05  <Raynos>hmm
18:38:09  <Raynos>i think its only AMD
18:38:29  <Raynos>let me check
18:38:49  <mrmrs>ogd: from yesterday - g; and g, backward/forward in change list (see with :changes) CTRL-O CTRL-I will move forwards/backwards through :jumplist
18:41:24  <ogd>mrmrs: whoa you are in stackvm, awesome
18:41:52  <ogd>mrmrs: would that be CTRL+SHIFT+i or just CTRL+i
18:41:57  <mrmrs>ogd: osmosis is the best
18:42:02  <mrmrs>just CTRL-i
18:42:08  <ogd>k sweet
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18:43:20  <mrmrs>I feel like those commands doubled my navigation speed
18:43:38  <mrmrs>no data to back that though :)
18:44:01  <ogd>haha
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18:56:38  <Raynos>ogd: I do full time node here, I want to get browserify + frontend fixed but there's only one of me
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19:23:32  <chrisdickinson>Raynos: my favored path to that is "we can just use browserify as the bundler for these AMD files so we get easy source maps and transforms"
19:23:43  <chrisdickinson>and then "oh look at all of these other features, isn't that a neat thing"
19:28:23  <ogd>chrisdickinson: do you guys use browserify at UA?
19:28:40  <chrisdickinson>ogd: we've got it running behind a feature flipper, soon, soooon it'll be in prod
19:29:25  <ogd>chrisdickinson: oh nice
19:29:36  <chrisdickinson>at that point i'd love to do a post about how we've gone from no modules -> AMD/require.js -> browserify
19:29:38  <ogd>chrisdickinson: im working on a new browserify website and am collecting testimonials
19:29:46  <chrisdickinson>i saw!
19:29:52  <chrisdickinson>i'd love to help out with browserify docs too
19:30:02  <ogd>chrisdickinson: if its cool with UA can you PM me a one sentence pro-browserify statement? :P
19:30:06  <ogd>brb
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19:47:19  <rowbit1>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 3, free: 26]
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20:47:19  <rowbit1>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 6, free: 38]
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20:53:20  <Raynos>chrisdickinson: I do zero frontend at uber
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20:53:47  <Raynos>If I did any I would either rewrite to browserify or do none
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21:10:35  <Raynos>Who uses tape a lot?
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21:19:35  <chrisdickinson>Raynos: i do -- saw your tweet -- i have mixed feelings about prettifying the defaults
21:19:53  <Raynos>only for TTY !
21:19:57  <Raynos>I have mixed feelings too
21:20:10  <chrisdickinson>i suppose that might work.
21:20:27  <chrisdickinson>(a CI system wouldn't report as TTY)
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21:21:15  <chrisdickinson>I think the primary reason for folks not using tap{e,} isn't ansicolors though
21:21:40  <chrisdickinson>it's that they're used to having stack traces when things go wrong
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21:42:04  <ogd>chrisdickinson: any idea why this isnt triggering forme? http://requirebin.com/?gist=9557480
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21:47:14  <ogd>chrisdickinson: ahh it works on a standalone page
21:47:19  <rowbit1>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 1, free: 33]
21:47:22  <ogd>chrisdickinson: might be an iframe issue, but i thought hughsk_ fixed that
21:47:29  <ogd>chrisdickinson: also ignore the css stuff i was just experimenting
21:47:41  <chrisdickinson>ogd: it's an iframe issue
21:47:52  <chrisdickinson>if you do `kb(document.body, { ...` it'll work
21:47:58  <ogd>ahhh
21:48:07  <chrisdickinson>i think https://github.com/chrisdickinson/kb-controls/blob/master/index.js#L11-L13 is failing silently
21:48:15  <ogd>oh yea nice
21:48:56  <ogd>cool, fixed http://requirebin.com/?gist=9557700
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22:47:19  <rowbit1>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 0, free: 24]
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22:53:37  <Raynos>chrisdickinson: then we should fix tape to print stack traces
22:53:45  <Raynos>chrisdickinson: raise an issue, ill PR it
22:59:07  <rowbit1>substack, pkrumins: These encoders are STILL down: 50.56.32.168(dev4)
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23:03:57  <Raynos>chrisdickinson: https://github.com/substack/tape/issues/68
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23:06:39  <pkrumins>ogd: there is a list of all modules on testling available
23:06:55  <pkrumins>ogd: http://ci.testling.com/commits.json
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23:16:12  <Domenic_>People should come to this http://lanyrd.com/2014/extensible-web-summit/
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23:28:02  <Raynos>yes !
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23:29:44  <rowbit1>/!\ ATTENTION: (default-local) andy@... successfully signed up for developer browserling plan ($20). Cash money! /!\
23:29:44  <rowbit1>/!\ ATTENTION: (default-local) paid account successfully upgraded /!\
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