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01:05:23  <defunctzombie>Raynos: is counter exposed like that?
01:06:40  <defunctzombie>ah, it is called "count" and not documented haha
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01:58:37  <ogd>jesusabdullah: browserify-cdn on wzrd.in doesn't seem to be culling anything, i tried cat logs/cdn.log | grep culling but didnt get any results
01:58:56  <ogd>jesusabdullah: it never gets to here https://github.com/jesusabdullah/browserify-cdn/blob/master/bundler/npm-cull.js#L26
02:01:06  <ogd>jesusabdullah: also it looks like that file is missing var semver = require('semver')
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02:06:51  <jesusabdullah>ogd: Yeah looks like it. Wonder why it never crashed before?
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02:07:12  <jesusabdullah>ogd: I have a migraine right now, sorry :(
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02:23:08  <ogd>jesusabdullah: ahh that sucks
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05:27:34  <Raynos>timoxley: ping
05:33:09  <timoxley>Raynos: ping
05:33:32  <Raynos>timoxley: I'm working on a web workshopper ( https://github.com/Raynos/http-works/ )
05:33:49  <Raynos>timoxley: since you've written a really good workshop, would you be interested in reviewing my problem descriptions
05:33:58  <timoxley>Raynos: absolutely
05:34:09  <Raynos>cool :)
05:34:28  <Raynos>Added you as a collaborator
05:34:32  <timoxley>sweet
05:34:34  <Raynos>I'll be working on them more tomorrow
05:34:35  <timoxley>thanks
05:34:49  <Raynos>started using the new workshopper api from rvagg its quite nice
05:34:58  <Raynos>s/nice/easy :p
05:36:47  <timoxley>Raynos: agree, with a bit of documentation I think it's going the right direction
05:37:15  <Raynos>:)
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06:18:44  <DTrejo>defunctzombie: my PR to `required` now has tests, ready for your eyes
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06:33:24  <kumavis>how do you all do data binding for your dom? backbone? I'm looking for a module solution over a framework solution
06:36:20  <Raynos>kumavis: depends
06:36:32  <Raynos>how do you want to approach it ?
06:36:40  <Raynos>like which DSL
06:37:00  <Raynos>I've done https://github.com/Colingo/populate before
06:37:00  <kriskowal>commonjs stand alone binding system https://github.com/montagejs/frb
06:37:27  <kumavis>my main requirement is that it goes both way
06:37:38  <Raynos>Ah, I dont do two way data binding ever >_<
06:37:51  <kriskowal>frb does <-> :P
06:38:03  <kumavis>Raynos: whys that?
06:38:16  <Raynos>because its not needed
06:38:26  <Raynos>I prefer a single pipeline of DOM event -> changes state -> render screen
06:38:35  <Raynos>rather then a circle of change state -> render screen -> change state
06:38:41  <kriskowal>but making dom nodes observable takes a bit of finesse. there's a dom.js there that partially monkey patches certain domness to be observable, but it's generally advisable to do the dom sync logic on animation frames.
06:39:12  <kumavis>I guess I dont need live every-char-you-type bindings, but if I could get away with not parsing a form I've filled in with their current values via a data binding already, that would be nice
06:39:58  <kumavis>"not parsing" means me not writing (much) code for it ; )
06:40:13  <kriskowal>aye
06:40:37  <Raynos>so I've used https://github.com/Colingo/form-data-set for parsing a form
06:40:48  <owen1>Raynos: great slides from your talk and promising workshop
06:40:55  <Raynos>owen1: thanks :)
06:41:00  <Raynos>working on the workshop atm
06:41:33  <owen1>added myself as watcher
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06:41:46  <owen1>and will try to give feedback
06:42:28  <Raynos>cool
06:42:53  <DTrejo>kriskowal: that is a long readme, im both impressed and scared hah
06:43:03  <owen1>i went to a Go workshop on the weekend. the creator of Martini gave a quick talk about creating website with it. it's express/sinatra-like framework.
06:43:47  <owen1>i felt it's not a good idea for the audience to learn how to use a framework before trying to use the core libs of the language.
06:44:02  <owen1>especially go which has really nice http library.
06:44:02  <kriskowal>DTrejo: i am occasionally thorough.
06:44:12  <DTrejo>:)
06:44:39  <kumavis>kriskowal: does https://github.com/montagejs/frb work with browserify?
06:44:51  <kriskowal>i believe so. tell me if it doesn't.
06:45:29  <kriskowal>it is designed for mr and mop, which have a lot of the same requirements as browserify and use the same package.json browser config
06:46:33  <kriskowal>mr does refresh to reload without a build step in dev, mop is like browserify but does whole package transformation
06:46:52  <kriskowal>so you use mr in dev, then mop the package without alternation for prod
06:47:08  <kriskowal>but browserify is sweet and should work too
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06:48:03  <kumavis>kriskowal: Raynos thanks, I hadn't heard of either of those previously, will investigate
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06:50:45  <Raynos>does anyone have a CLI pagination thing
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09:16:07  <Raynos>If I implement `unix-less` which 5 features are the most important ?
09:16:13  <Raynos>re-implementing unix less in node.js
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13:05:00  <pkrumins>woow so many new signups
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13:34:57  <defunctzombie>kumavis: https://github.com/component/reactive
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18:06:04  <mikolalysenko>weird, every time I try to access my twitter profile it says internal server error...
18:06:34  <mikolalysenko>must be down
18:07:34  <jjjohhny>mikolalysenko: yeah my session is out
18:11:51  <kumavis>i was just noticing issues as well
18:13:12  <creationix>I finally finish my medium post and post it to twitter, and it goes down. :(
18:13:37  <creationix>if anyone is interested https://medium.com/p/b91192841950
18:15:05  <jjjohhny>ogd: do you typically use 360 degrees when talking longitude?
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18:16:25  <jjjohhny>ogd: cuz geojosn-utils.drawCircle returns longs in 360
18:18:10  <jjjohhny>creationix: what is your hourly?
18:20:31  <creationix>jjjohhny, see pm
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18:27:51  <pfraze>mikolalysenko - got a chance to finish your posts. Good read, really stretched me on the math but I think I made it. Strichmond's comments on the consistency post reflect almost everything I had to say
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18:29:34  <pfraze>in addition to finding a good framework for applying local perception filtering with other techniques, I wonder if there are specific use-cases in which, used alone, LPF gives the ideal results
18:30:28  <pfraze>to that end, I think about less realtime-sensitive environments, like shared GUI environments. This may be especially likely in VRUI
18:33:42  <pfraze>so you might investigate some of those use-cases. It seems like a pretty original idea, so I think pursuing it might lead to some novel products
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18:39:43  <mikolalysenko>pfraze: glad you liked it
18:40:20  <mikolalysenko>I'm currently considering a few other applications
18:40:44  <mikolalysenko>one thing that is maybe not emphasized well, but I think still very important is that the causality bounds are actually a bit more general
18:40:56  <mikolalysenko>I think they should generically apply to any distributed simulation
18:41:18  <mikolalysenko>so you can probably figure out something about how easy it is to parallelized a simulation based on how fast the speed of light is within the system
18:41:36  <mikolalysenko>or if it has interactions that are instantaneous, then it may be hopeless to turn it into a distributed simulation
18:42:15  <mikolalysenko>this would explain for example why rigid body dynamics is so difficult to implement over a network: you have to accept some amount of latency or else face inconsistency
18:42:25  <marcello3d>creationix: it's kind of unclear from the medium post where geographically you want to work
18:42:37  <creationix>marcello3d, remote
18:44:47  <pfraze>mikolalysenko, to help me understand some of the implications, answer me: what would happen if you tied the speed of light to the speed of latency? By that I mean, in a sim, is the speed of light tied in someway to the physical speed of information between nodes, or is it more of an upper-cap on the amount of change a property can experience in a given timestep?
18:45:53  <mikolalysenko>pfraze: you could do that, but really the speed of light is a property of the game or simulation you are running
18:46:20  <mikolalysenko>essentially if you have instant interactions then you have to synchronize everything at each time step
18:46:34  <mikolalysenko>this forces the system to run as slow as the slowest node in the network
18:47:09  <mikolalysenko>so in the model I was assuming, you have objects that move with bounded maximum velocity and interact locally
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18:47:24  <mikolalysenko>so speed of light = fastest possible speed an object can move
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18:53:07  <pfraze>mikolalysenko: hmm, ok. So it seems you're constructing a set of abstractions which have parameters (eg lightspeed) that might be fiddled in distributed state in order to guarantee order while minimizing the impact of latency even within a single node
18:53:27  <mikolalysenko>yeah
18:53:39  <mikolalysenko>in a sense, the speed of light determines how flexible that "order" is
18:53:56  <mikolalysenko>if light is very slow, then you have more flexibility reorder how you perceive events
18:54:01  <mikolalysenko>and so you can get more parallelism
18:54:12  <mikolalysenko>if light is very fast, then you have stronger requirements on consistency
18:55:27  <mikolalysenko>though I have been working on a generalization where the speed of light can effectively vary throughout the simulation
18:55:42  <mikolalysenko>or more importantly, the rate at which time progresses is spatially adaptive
18:56:03  <mikolalysenko>the reason you might want to do that is to throttle back on updates if you have many concurrent users crowded in some small space
18:56:24  <mikolalysenko>so rather than have the game crash due to congestion you just slow down time within a region around the players
18:56:57  <mikolalysenko>I talked about this in this post a bit, but didn't work out the details fully: http://0fps.net/2014/03/09/replication-in-network-games-bandwidth-part-4/
18:57:13  <mikolalysenko>one weird consequence though is that if you distort time in this way it will impact the rules of the game
18:57:29  <mikolalysenko>so trajectories of particles and so on will be deformed by this type of time warping
18:57:45  <pfraze>mikolalysenko: similar to eve online's time dilation, right?
18:57:48  <mikolalysenko>yeah
18:58:00  <mikolalysenko>except eve is split into disjoint regions
18:58:07  <pfraze>yeah, whereas this is continuous
18:58:09  <mikolalysenko>yes
18:58:27  <mikolalysenko>the idea is kind of simple, but the consequences are a little tricky to work out
18:58:43  <mikolalysenko>but it could be very useful in massive multiplayer games as a way to ensure availability
18:59:43  <mikolalysenko>theoretically you would have no upper limit on players, but the game might eventually tick so slowly that it is practically unplayable anyway...
18:59:55  <mikolalysenko>but that latter situation is probably better than just crashing outright
19:01:23  <pfraze>so I have a sense of this for physics simulations (games) and now I'm trying to apply the ideas to distributed data-processing. I would suppose, if you can map the processing events spatially, might you be able to enforce total order? This isn't my specialty, so I'm making a somewhat wild guess
19:02:05  <mikolalysenko>well, most data processing in applications is not spatial so none of this stuff really applies
19:02:28  <mikolalysenko>but it could be useful for things like big numerical simulations or vr type applications
19:05:45  <pfraze>yeah. Ok, interesting stuff, thanks for sharing
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19:06:10  <mikolalysenko>pfraze: thanks for reading!
19:06:48  <pfraze>mikolalysenko: have you had a look at http://verse.github.io/ ?
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19:10:59  <mikolalysenko>pfraze: hmm, is it like some kind of serialization thing?
19:12:08  <pfraze>mikolalysenko: it appears to be - perhaps for optimizing within available bandwidth, based on what their simulation is illustrating
19:14:46  <mikolalysenko>I guess it is nice, but not exactly something I am super interested in unless it makes coding way easier (see the bikeshed remark on the serialization section)
19:16:34  * lmedgidovajoined
19:16:51  <guybrush>i highly recommend against JSON.stringify() when it comes to such things like serializing states of entities in a game
19:18:23  <guybrush>just inline all leaves of the object in a function and put all the things into typed arrays to transfer it over the network
19:18:47  <pfraze>ok, to be honest, I hadn't looked in a lot of depth, which is why I mentioned it. I had it on my list of options in if I'm ever in need of sim-distribution
19:19:40  * phatedquit (Remote host closed the connection)
19:19:54  <mikolalysenko>json.stringify is fine if you are just starting out
19:20:11  <guybrush>oh right
19:20:15  <mikolalysenko>but once you have more stuff going on, eventually you want to switch to roll-your-own or do some schema based thing
19:20:20  <guybrush>but its good to keep in mind where you want to go
19:20:28  <mikolalysenko>yeah
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19:20:39  <mikolalysenko>as long as you keep all the serialization stuff localized it isn't too bad
19:20:46  <guybrush>i was at a point where json.serialize was the biggest bottleneck
19:20:52  <guybrush>or rather i am haha
19:21:05  <mikolalysenko>well, that can be misleading
19:21:36  <mikolalysenko>since sometimes json.stringify might seem like the bottleneck when really the design of other components is what is causing it to use so much bandwidth
19:21:41  <guybrush>its just very expensive
19:21:53  <mikolalysenko>it is always going to be the point that looks expensive
19:22:06  <mikolalysenko>but the real goal should be to just serialize less stuff total
19:22:19  <mikolalysenko>which will make json.stringify run faster
19:22:22  <guybrush>but i need to keep stuff in sync :D
19:22:26  <guybrush>so i have to
19:22:33  <mikolalysenko>so, think about other ways you could maybe do that
19:22:51  <mikolalysenko>and how much data you really need to send in order to keep them in sync
19:22:57  * calvinfoquit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
19:23:00  <mikolalysenko>and how often those updates need to be propagated
19:23:03  <guybrush>like planetery annihilation? :)
19:23:21  <mikolalysenko>planetary annihilation doesn't actually replicate that much stuff
19:23:36  <mikolalysenko>they just send coordinates on curves for network relevant entities
19:23:38  * thealphanerdquit (Quit: thealphanerd)
19:23:44  <guybrush>no maybe its another game, i mean the thing where you just sync curves
19:23:52  <guybrush>oh right it wos that game
19:23:54  <mikolalysenko>yeah, it is the one
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19:24:43  <mikolalysenko>you can also do stuff like use local perception filters to render remote objects backward in time
19:24:57  <guybrush>i am at a point where everything just works so im pretty much against trying anything new for some time hahaha
19:25:01  <guybrush>after lots of rewrites
19:25:19  <mikolalysenko>if that is the case, then maybe pushing serialization makes sense
19:25:34  <mikolalysenko>but beware though, since once you go down that route you will get locked in
19:25:46  <guybrush>but i really enjoy thinking about other ways, though they dont make much sense for me yet
19:25:47  <mikolalysenko>serialization is a pain in the ass, and easy to mess up
19:26:07  <guybrush>hm the hardest problem for me is to keep stuff in sync
19:26:26  <guybrush>that is by far the hardest problem
19:26:50  <mikolalysenko>well, you can just do the easy thing like: wait for all inputs, send state to clients
19:27:00  <mikolalysenko>it will be slow but it should work without much trouble
19:27:01  <guybrush>for me anyway and maybe i need to keep going longer to run into even harder problems
19:27:46  * peutetrejoined
19:28:37  <guybrush>for example im predicting fireballs which destroy terrain
19:28:51  <guybrush>if something goes wrong
19:29:03  <guybrush>i need to check everything
19:29:17  <mikolalysenko>then the solution is don't use prediction!
19:29:18  <guybrush>like is the terrain exactly what it should be
19:29:24  <mikolalysenko>for those events make it all synchronous
19:29:34  <guybrush>but that feels not good
19:29:39  <mikolalysenko>why?
19:29:50  <guybrush>when i hit a button i want to see the fireball immediately :D
19:29:59  <mikolalysenko>so you can use local perception filters
19:30:05  <guybrush>when i hit "w" i want to move forward immediately
19:30:19  <mikolalysenko>so you get to see it immediately on your machine, and it does no prediction at all
19:30:30  <guybrush>im not sure, need to read more into it
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19:31:04  <mikolalysenko>you can also mix things up a bit, like make some things like player movement predicted and other things like fireball impacts synchronous
19:31:09  <guybrush>its not like i dont believe what you say, i just dont understand it yet haha
19:31:53  <guybrush>i mean i know its about running things faster/slower depending on how far they are from you
19:32:01  <mikolalysenko>yeah
19:32:13  <mikolalysenko>but, getting back to the point about json.stringify being slow
19:32:32  <mikolalysenko>one possibility it is slow is that you are just trying to serialize too much stuff
19:32:41  <mikolalysenko>so if that is the problem there are two ways to attack it:
19:32:56  <mikolalysenko>1. build a faster stringify yourself, taking into account your own problem specific knowledge
19:33:03  <mikolalysenko>2. send less stuff
19:33:03  * fuzjoined
19:33:09  <mikolalysenko>the better solution is always 2
19:33:21  <mikolalysenko>but it requires you to think about the problem at a higher level
19:33:41  <mikolalysenko>option 1 may work in the short term, but it will inflict serious damage on your code
19:33:43  <guybrush>im already sending only stuff that changes and without keys
19:33:53  <guybrush>[,,,,,,,3,,,,,,]
19:34:02  <mikolalysenko>hmm
19:34:05  <guybrush>position x changed from 2 to 3
19:34:11  <mikolalysenko>what if you sent something different than that?
19:34:14  <guybrush>but its only from server to client
19:34:28  <guybrush>between server and server im sending the whole thing :D
19:34:30  <mikolalysenko>like { changedIndex: [10], changedValue: [3] }
19:34:44  * fuzquit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
19:35:00  <mikolalysenko>since you are still sending O(n) stuff
19:35:19  * fuzjoined
19:35:41  <mikolalysenko>anyway, I am not saying that you should rule out option 1
19:35:48  <guybrush>hmm i have to look into all the possibilities
19:35:49  <mikolalysenko>but it is not something you should just jump right into
19:36:00  <mikolalysenko>really it is the optimization of last resort
19:36:11  <mikolalysenko>kind of like rewriting a function in asm
19:36:35  <mikolalysenko>only do it once you are 100% sure you aren't going to need to change it later
19:36:55  <guybrush>so with perception-filters, i think a huge problem is that the whole world feels weird
19:37:04  <guybrush>like stuff just moves faster and slower all the time
19:37:26  <mikolalysenko>guybrush: it is true, though it is a separate issue from bandwidth
19:37:38  <guybrush>right
19:37:40  <mikolalysenko>also, prediction correction feels weird too
19:37:57  <mikolalysenko>and strict consistency just feel laggy
19:38:18  <mikolalysenko>so you have to accept some amount of weirdness to get around the fact that you have lag
19:38:24  <mikolalysenko>or else put up with slow controls
19:39:09  <mikolalysenko>prediction correction can actually look even worse, since you get stuff like players passing through doors or teleporting around
19:39:35  <mikolalysenko>and there are different ways to select the local perception filter that can make time dilation effects less noticeable
19:39:47  <guybrush>well being able to do easier syncing might be worth to look deeper into trying to fix the weird stuff
19:39:56  <mikolalysenko>if the slopes are shallower you the dilation is less noticeable
19:41:04  <guybrush>haha it was so easy to just predict/interpolate 2 cubes that dont really interact with each other :p
19:41:14  <guybrush>it was a trap
19:42:02  <mikolalysenko>yeah, it is difficult
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19:42:15  <mikolalysenko>though there are still some advantages to prediction/correction
19:42:30  <mikolalysenko>since it gives you the lowest possible latency
19:42:46  <mikolalysenko>the downside is that you *will* have consistency problems
19:43:11  <mikolalysenko>for some games though, maybe this is acceptable
19:43:17  <guybrush>hmmm somehow i am still thinking that one can build a solid game with prediction/correction once you really understand how to handle all the different scenarios
19:43:51  <guybrush>things like motion of a player is different than the healthbar for example
19:44:07  <mikolalysenko>it gets hard when you have interactions
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19:44:41  <guybrush>right, right now i just look at when the terrain get changed how
19:44:43  <mikolalysenko>consider a scenario where you shoot a railgun at a different player
19:45:03  <guybrush>and if it is not what it should be i just reload the whole part of that terrain
19:45:17  <mikolalysenko>it is possible (and even likely) for players to disagree over whether the shot connected
19:45:49  <guybrush>oh right i know what you are talking about, i did play a lot of counterstrike :D
19:46:18  <mikolalysenko>that is just the easiest example though, and you can trivially construct lots of other scenarios where things go wrong
19:46:25  * rosanaquit (Remote host closed the connection)
19:46:39  <mikolalysenko>like I place a block, and you place a different block at the same time - which block gets put on the ground?
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19:47:01  <guybrush>that one that got first to the server :p
19:47:09  <guybrush>but one hast to be corrected
19:47:14  <guybrush>and it sums up
19:47:19  <rowbit1>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 5]
19:47:23  <guybrush>i mean the scenarios sum up
19:47:44  <guybrush>and every scenario needs its own correction-function
19:48:02  * fuzjoined
19:48:11  <mikolalysenko>yeah, though that gets very messy
19:48:20  <mikolalysenko>and you will still see glitches
19:48:35  <mikolalysenko>like teleporting players and so on
19:48:37  <guybrush>if not even worse things
19:48:53  <guybrush>like being dead in the next moment without seeing it coming
19:49:07  <mikolalysenko>yeah
19:49:16  <guybrush>and that is not funny when its a game with hardcore-mode :)
19:49:34  <mikolalysenko>or item duplication if the consistency resolution is not handled correctly
19:49:57  <mikolalysenko>this gets especially hairy when you are interacting with lots of different systems that do correction in their own way
19:50:00  <guybrush>hm right its just a very huge surface for bugs
19:50:10  <mikolalysenko>like placing a block at the boundary of a chunk loading zone
19:50:14  <mikolalysenko>with multiple players
19:50:29  * airportyhjoined
19:50:33  <mikolalysenko>now, if you just work at it enough you can maybe get it to a playable/stable point
19:50:51  <mikolalysenko>but this is something that big game devlopment companies hire teams of people to work on for years at a time
19:50:57  <mikolalysenko>and they still ship with bugs
19:51:22  <airportyh>defunctzombie: ping
19:52:34  <defunctzombie>airportyh: pong
19:53:09  <airportyh>defunctzombie: do you use the "View Pattern"? https://github.com/component/reactive#view-patterns
19:53:24  <defunctzombie>airportyh: yea
19:53:39  <defunctzombie>airportyh: lets me wrap up everything in a nice container for a "view"
19:53:47  <defunctzombie>usually each view lives in a file as well
19:53:53  <defunctzombie>next to its template
19:53:59  <defunctzombie>(the way I do it)
19:54:17  <guybrush>mikolalysenko: i have to look deeper into perception filters :) thank you for doing all the hard work and putting the infos online, im really learning a lot
19:54:36  <airportyh>ok, and usually you have delegate set the 'this' like that example?
19:55:29  <airportyh>Also, why call the view el? That's a reactive view object, is it "like" an element?
19:56:18  <mikolalysenko>guybrush: you're welcome!
19:59:58  <defunctzombie>airportyh: yea, delegate is usually this or "self"
20:00:10  <defunctzombie>airportyh: that is a typo
20:00:22  <defunctzombie>airportyh: I actually do "self.view = reactive( ... )"
20:00:25  <airportyh>defunctzombie: ok
20:00:46  <defunctzombie>airportyh: tho it seems weird to have a "view" property inside of a "View" class like that
20:00:51  <airportyh>defunctzombie: I can send you a PR for that, I plan to do a bit of clean up to the readme
20:00:53  <defunctzombie>I found the consistency is nice
20:01:01  <defunctzombie>absolutely welcome :)
20:01:40  <defunctzombie>airportyh: I also typically use the (!(this instanceof)) pattern for all my constructors, but that gets into more opinionated territory
20:01:48  <airportyh>yeah, also I looked through the code and it was interchanging the terms "delegate" and "view"
20:02:04  <airportyh>a little confusing, I think you are in the midst of some refactoring
20:02:37  <airportyh>defunctzombie: yup, oh JavaScript :)
20:03:14  <airportyh>defunctzombie: a couple other things I found 1) you have to implement nested properties in the model adapter
20:03:23  <airportyh>as in "items.length"
20:04:27  <defunctzombie>airportyh: yea, delegate is a new term I made for the options object
20:04:40  <defunctzombie>airportyh: internally it is still called "view" in most places
20:04:56  <defunctzombie>airportyh: yes, if you want to support nested properties you gotta add them to the adapter
20:05:02  <airportyh>defunctzombie: 2) currently the each binding is design to work only with arrays, so would take some work to work with Backbone.Collection or something like it
20:05:02  <defunctzombie>airportyh: it depends on how your model layer handles it
20:05:14  <defunctzombie>that is why it is left to the model layer
20:05:21  <defunctzombie>yes, that is also true
20:05:29  <airportyh>defunctzombie: bamboo handles it or the bamboo adapter handles it?
20:05:37  <defunctzombie>I welcome ideas on how to work with Backbone collections
20:05:37  <airportyh>defunctzombie: meant the nested properties
20:05:48  <defunctzombie>the adapter handles the nested properties for bamboo
20:06:02  <defunctzombie>cause bamboo exposes basic object like access via defined properties
20:06:10  <defunctzombie>and bamboo doesn't do anything with arrays
20:06:19  <defunctzombie>or have any special array things that I use
20:06:25  <defunctzombie>when I need arrays, I just make arrays
20:06:52  <airportyh>I think for handling collection, there'll need to be another interface for intercepting access like the model adapter
20:06:58  <airportyh>or roll into the model adapter
20:06:58  * fuzquit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
20:07:49  <defunctzombie>long time ago I thought about using events for array stuff
20:08:01  <defunctzombie>but then played with just shimming the methods
20:08:06  <defunctzombie>and it works much simpler
20:08:19  <defunctzombie>cause you can just pass in arrays to it and then add to those arrays later
20:08:19  <airportyh>a good test is getting it to work with Backbone.Collection and something like https://github.com/matthewmueller/array
20:08:23  <defunctzombie>without having to wrap them in things
20:08:49  * peutetrequit (Quit: peutetre)
20:09:01  <defunctzombie>if that array component behaves like an array it is probably already supported
20:09:12  <airportyh>yeah, but duck punching seems dirty
20:09:32  <airportyh>I feel a little violated when you duck punched my array
20:09:36  <defunctzombie>heh
20:09:37  <defunctzombie>good
20:09:41  <defunctzombie>you should feel violated
20:10:12  <defunctzombie>it is dirty, or it isn't, just depends who you ask on what day of the week
20:10:45  <airportyh>I don't like the idea of it because if more than one lib you use happen to use that technique, it just get hairy
20:10:51  <airportyh>could get unexpected results
20:10:58  <airportyh>and then debugging gets hard
20:11:49  <airportyh>if the user knows it's happening up front, it alleviates some of it
20:12:38  <defunctzombie>sure
20:12:51  <defunctzombie>I have so far liked it
20:13:26  <defunctzombie>I don't modify the original array, just use the patches to know when it is modified
20:15:38  <airportyh>I understand the tradeoffs. It's simpler from the user persecutive because he doesn't have to change his default behavior of using the native array
20:16:33  <defunctzombie>yea
20:17:28  * phatedjoined
20:20:28  <tim_smart>My app has a massive memory leak of some sort :( What tools on linux should I use to track it down?
20:21:11  <jjjohhny>calvinfo1: same calvin?
20:21:50  <jjjohhny>calvin of metcalf
20:23:37  <jjjohhny>tim_smart: put the innertube in a bucket of water
20:24:11  <tim_smart>jjjohhny: No bucket, just linux unfortunately!
20:25:17  <jjjohhny>you probably gotta profile it from within the app
20:28:21  * mikolalysenkoquit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
20:29:56  <calvinfo1>jjjohhny: nah, different calvin :)
20:31:06  <jjjohhny>o/
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20:47:19  <rowbit1>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 234, free: 25]
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20:57:35  <jjjohhny>pegman
20:57:53  <jjjohhny>i knew your cousin paperclipartman
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21:07:08  <robertkowalski>i have a ticket for nodeconf.eu!
21:07:23  <robertkowalski>who else?
21:07:50  <robertkowalski>last years nodeconf.eu was so awesome!
21:10:50  <defunctzombie>tim_smart: node app? or cpp app?
21:10:58  <tim_smart>defunctzombie: node app
21:11:03  <defunctzombie>tim_smart: if you have a native module leak use valgrind
21:11:32  <defunctzombie>tim_smart: maybe try to see if this will work: http://mrale.ph/blog/2013/02/17/release-the-irhydra.html
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21:11:45  <defunctzombie>I think it can do good things but is complicated :)
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21:37:20  <rowbit1>/!\ ATTENTION: (default-local) ozbie616@... successfully signed up for developer browserling plan ($20). Cash money! /!\
21:37:20  <rowbit1>/!\ ATTENTION: (default-local) paid account successfully upgraded /!\
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21:47:19  <rowbit1>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 8, free: 19]
21:49:25  <ogd>jesusabdullah: here we go https://gist.github.com/maxogden/e248ce2e69deedb2a072
21:49:38  <ogd>jesusabdullah: i guess it just crashes so infrequently that i didnt notice
21:52:13  <tim_smart>defunctzombie: Thanks. Might have to recompile node I guess
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21:54:41  <defunctzombie>GITHUB IS DOWN
21:54:41  <LOUDBOT>YOU ARE APPARENTLY THE EXPERT MISTER I SPEAK LANGUAGES THAT YOU DON'T
21:56:31  <jesusabdullah>ogd: ahhh
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22:02:37  <ogd>jesusabdullah: i commited a fix but cant push cause github is down
22:04:47  <marcello3d>a common excuse ;)
22:04:50  <defunctzombie>GITHUB IS STILL DOWN
22:04:51  <LOUDBOT>I MUST HAVE SOME BOOZE. I DEMAND TO HAVE SOME BOOZE.
22:05:30  <marcello3d>probably due to their dependence on ruby
22:06:27  <defunctzombie>will be ironic when the post-mortem says it was a node issue
22:09:16  <marcello3d>probably lack of type safety
22:16:59  <jjjohhny>loudbot quoted one of my favorite films http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withnail_and_I
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22:31:41  <ogd>jesusabdullah: ok deployed my fix, we'll see if it culls correctly now
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22:47:22  <rowbit1>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 7, free: 23]
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22:58:27  <tim_smart>defunctzombie: Found out the app is leaking buffers somewhere
22:58:44  <defunctzombie>tim_smart: how did you find out?
22:58:55  <tim_smart>defunctzombie: heap dump diffs
22:58:58  <groundwater>hey, who has the node sticker hexagon template?
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23:00:18  <tim_smart>defunctzombie: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/37659629/2014-03-12-115955_1386x911_scrot.png
23:02:32  <ogd>groundwater: http://dat-data.com/stickers see bottom
23:02:38  <ogd>groundwater: not a template per se but has instructions
23:04:22  <defunctzombie>tim_smart: so somewhere you aren't cleaning up references?
23:04:37  <tim_smart>defunctzombie: somewhere, or in my dependencies
23:04:55  <AvianFlu>SOCIAL MEDIA CIRCLE JERK FUNHOUSE: THE MUSICAL
23:04:55  <LOUDBOT>NOT USING EMACS? THATS A PADDLIN
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23:14:52  <jesusabdullah>ogd: cool thanks
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23:47:19  <rowbit1>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 5, free: 26]
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