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| <rowbit1> | /!\ ATTENTION: (default-local) toshi@... successfully signed up for developer browserling plan ($20). Cash money! /!\ |
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| <rowbit1> | /!\ ATTENTION: (default-local) paid account successfully upgraded /!\ |
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| <dguttman> | ogd: https://vimeo.com/65042246 |
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| <dguttman> | looks like a similar talk he gave at JS.LA |
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| <terinjokes> | i've talked with him a few times |
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| <ogd> | hughsk: man its confusing that atom has its own package manager but uses package.json and node modules |
| 01:08:26
| <ogd> | hughsk: e.g. i have the nodei.co-chrome extension installed and it shows a badge on https://github.com/hughsk/atom-npm-install for https://www.npmjs.org/package/npm-install |
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| <mikolalysenko> | ogd: what? I thought atom was built on npm....?! |
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| <mikolalysenko> | why would they do it that way? |
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| <terinjokes> | i thought apm was just a wrapper around npm? |
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| <rowbit1> | substack, pkrumins: Encoders down: 184.106.106.46 (dev-ie8-1) |
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| <hughsk> | ogd: I know right! Have the same extension too – would've be nice to just use npm directly, though imagine they've done it that way to make it easier for newcomers |
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| <jesusabdullah> | http://www.reddit.com/r/javascript/comments/1zkepg/tired_of_having_to_write_correct_identifiers_us/ |
| 02:00:20
| <jesusabdullah> | apparently /r/javascript hates fun |
| 02:00:29
| <jesusabdullah> | (I see 0 votes) |
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| <rowbit1> | substack, pkrumins: Encoders down: 50.57.174.105 (dev-ie8-2) |
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| <defunctzombie> | ogd: package.json existed before npm did tho I am not 100% positive on that |
| 03:04:36
| <defunctzombie> | ogd: also, I don't think it is correct to assume that package.json will always and forever be npm only |
| 03:04:46
| <defunctzombie> | it is just too generic a name and placement of the file |
| 03:05:09
| <defunctzombie> | for instance debian packages have a debian folder |
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| <defunctzombie> | ogd: http://williamnewton.co/blog/ui-hacking-in-the-browser/ <-- you should tell them about requirebin |
| 03:11:05
| <defunctzombie> | great way to do ui with modules in the browser! |
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| <ogd> | windows question: what is the best shell to use for running npm install |
| 04:01:00
| <ogd> | git shell? |
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| <ogd> | or cmd.exe? or powershell? i dont even know |
| 04:02:29
| <ogd> | (windows 8) |
| 04:03:17
| <substack> | ogd: http://win-bash.sourceforge.net/ |
| 04:03:46
| <ogd> | substack: do you know if `npm` will be in the path if the user did the windows installer from nodejs.org? |
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| 04:05:09
| <substack> | I'm not sure |
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| <substack> | Domenic_ might now if he's awake |
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| <pkrumins> | ogd: it will be |
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| <Raynos> | substack: I plan to use tape at uber soon |
| 04:29:29
| <Raynos> | I'll prob make a bunch of cleanup PRs |
| 04:30:02
| <Raynos> | substack: how open are you about breaking some of the lib files out into npm ? |
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| <Raynos> | substack: also make the TAP formatter swappable, so that I can iterate on a better reporter with more meta data without breaking back compat |
| 04:30:57
| <Raynos> | I want to do a study of multiple testing frameworks and how they report errors |
| 04:35:55
| <substack> | Raynos: I'm not sure how breaking the lib files into separate modules will help much |
| 04:36:25
| <substack> | Raynos: you can test.createStream({ objectMode: true }) to get the raw data and render it however you want |
| 04:36:39
| <Raynos> | substack: it will allow for re-use |
| 04:37:02
| <substack> | but it forces you to use a particular runner |
| 04:37:14
| <substack> | I like the simplicity of doing node test.js |
| 04:37:17
| <Raynos> | if the assertion code & the only code & the nested children code & tap rendering code lived in individual modules you can build your "own tape" like you can build your "own browserify" |
| 04:37:19
| <substack> | and then it spits out tap output |
| 04:37:27
| <Raynos> | i like node test.js as well |
| 04:38:36
| <mikolalysenko> | I'm glad that tape is getting more popular |
| 04:39:03
| <substack> | Raynos: I'm somewhat open but there would need to be a clear use-case I think |
| 04:39:06
| <Raynos> | substack: https://gist.github.com/Raynos/8700797 |
| 04:39:25
| <Raynos> | For example the whole test & child test & only() and uncaught exception and pre exit hooks blabla bla |
| 04:39:37
| <Raynos> | can be seperate from the thing that just writes TAP to a stream when you assert.equal() |
| 04:39:43
| <Raynos> | thats the biggest use case for me |
| 04:39:59
| <Raynos> | it seems tape does both an assert interface for writing TAP and a flow control library for test authoring |
| 04:40:12
| <substack> | Raynos: what if there was just a different entry point in the tape module for just the api without creating a default harness? |
| 04:40:30
| <Raynos> | that could work |
| 04:40:33
| <substack> | require('tape/harness') or whatever |
| 04:40:42
| <substack> | and that wouldn't have any default handlers set up |
| 04:41:05
| <substack> | but it's also tricky because tape wraps around process.on('exit', fn) in node |
| 04:41:06
| <Raynos> | substack: https://github.com/Raynos/assert-tap I tried this btw |
| 04:41:27
| <Raynos> | substack: https://github.com/Raynos/assert-tap/blob/master/index.js#L1-L2 |
| 04:41:30
| <substack> | to make sure there weren't planned assertions that didn't get run |
| 04:41:54
| <Raynos> | it used lib/default_stream and lib/results |
| 04:42:12
| <Raynos> | substack: see I dont want the .plan() feature, i never use it. |
| 04:42:42
| <Raynos> | I think what I really want is all the things in lib :P |
| 04:43:05
| <Raynos> | but sure we can do this by having multiple entry points & better docs rather then multiple github repos + npm packages |
| 04:43:18
| <substack> | Raynos: you can just require('tape/lib/blah') directly |
| 04:43:37
| <substack> | index.js doesn't have very much |
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| <Raynos> | This is true. |
| 04:44:18
| <substack> | most of it is setting up the process exit handlers |
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| 04:48:01
| <Raynos> | substack: breaking things out of lib will force better documentation / apis / versioning / seperation though |
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| <jlord> | ceejbot: are you slides from the workshop online somewhere? |
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| 06:20:58
| <anvaka> | isaacs: would it be possible to support CORS on registry.npmjs.org? |
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| 06:21:21
| <substack> | no more open issues on tape! |
| 06:22:28
| <anvaka> | substack: congratulations :) |
| 06:26:56
| <ogd> | anvaka: couchdb supports cors now |
| 06:27:08
| <ogd> | anvaka: it just has to be turned on |
| 06:27:20
| <anvaka> | ogd it does, but still registry.npmjs.org has it off |
| 06:27:46
| <anvaka> | and jsonp is not working there https://github.com/npm/npmjs.org/issues/157 |
| 06:31:44
| <ogd> | anvaka: what about https://fullfatdb.npmjs.com/ |
| 06:32:18
| <anvaka> | ogd: let me check... I checked only jsonp there, which was disabled |
| 06:32:41
| <ogd> | anvaka: couch has jsonp + cors settings that both default to off, and only admins can see the state of the settings IIRC |
| 06:34:01
| <anvaka> | I must be doing something wrong with fullfatdb |
| 06:34:15
| <anvaka> | ogd: I don't see cors header here https://fullfatdb.npmjs.com/ |
| 06:34:35
| <anvaka> | ogd: https://fullfatdb.npmjs.com/registry/_design/scratch/_view/byField?limit=10 - this returns this method may not be used |
| 06:34:51
| <ogd> | anvaka: im guessing it needs to get the cors flag turned on in the couchdb configuration |
| 06:35:22
| <anvaka> | ogd: right... who can do this? |
| 06:35:36
| <ogd> | anvaka: probably isaacs |
| 06:35:36
| <anvaka> | indexzero or isaacs? |
| 06:36:02
| <anvaka> | ogd: got it... thank you! |
| 06:36:46
| <anvaka> | ogd: Do I understand it correctly that isaacs.iriscouch.com is just one of many npm mirrors behind registry.npmjs.org? |
| 06:36:53
| <anvaka> | or is it totally wrong? |
| 06:37:32
| <ogd> | anvaka: http://blog.npmjs.org/post/75707294465/new-npm-registry-architecture |
| 06:37:47
| <anvaka> | right... downstream mirror |
| 06:37:49
| <ogd> | anvaka: i think *.npmjs.com is recommended going forward |
| 06:38:04
| <anvaka> | yep... which does not support cors :) |
| 06:38:05
| <indexzero> | depends who is making the recommendation ogd ;) |
| 06:38:41
| <anvaka> | indexzero: :) |
| 06:38:43
| <ogd> | right, recommended re: that blog post |
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| 06:39:29
| <ogd> | anvaka: i have asked @jasonsmith to turn on cors many times for isaacs.iriscouch.com but AFAIK it never got enabled, not sure why exactly |
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| 06:39:37
| <ogd> | anvaka: i think cors support landed in couchdb 1.3.0 |
| 06:39:56
| <ogd> | anvaka: are you by chance working on client side module loading? |
| 06:40:39
| <anvaka> | ogd: I'm thinking about client side browserify :)... But currently it's mostly work on this visualization |
| 06:40:45
| <anvaka> | http://www.yasiv.com/npm#view/browserify |
| 06:40:53
| <indexzero> | ogd: core is on isaacs.iriscouch.com |
| 06:40:56
| <indexzero> | I just double checked |
| 06:41:01
| <indexzero> | enabled_cors = true |
| 06:41:05
| <ogd> | indexzero: oh sweetness |
| 06:41:09
| <indexzero> | … errr "enable_cors" |
| 06:41:25
| <anvaka> | indexzero, ogd isaacs.iriscouch.com has jsonp enabled as well |
| 06:41:32
| <anvaka> | but it was super unstable recently |
| 06:41:40
| <anvaka> | usually during presentations :) |
| 06:41:45
| <ogd> | anvaka: i think it is totally feasible to unpack tarballs from npm on the client side |
| 06:41:52
| <indexzero> | anvaka: how did you get that byField thing working? I used to remember |
| 06:41:52
| <anvaka> | right |
| 06:42:02
| <ogd> | anvaka: i was gonna go down that road but ended up using browserify-cdn instead |
| 06:42:04
| <anvaka> | ogd it's jsonp now |
| 06:42:33
| <ogd> | anvaka: i mean for the actual code, not the json |
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| 06:43:00
| <anvaka> | oh sorry. I thought ogd was asking about by field |
| 06:43:15
| <anvaka> | indexzero: byField works via jsonp with isaacs.iriscouch.com |
| 06:43:41
| <indexzero> | sure, but it should also work w/o jsonp |
| 06:43:52
| <indexzero> | right? |
| 06:43:52
| <indexzero> | it's just a view |
| 06:44:02
| <anvaka> | indexzero: right, if you are outside of a browser :) |
| 06:44:12
| <anvaka> | indexzero: I'm in a browser where cross-domain rules are too strict |
| 06:44:19
| <indexzero> | oh ok |
| 06:44:51
| <anvaka> | indexzero: so enabling cors (just one header) would let me use registry.. |
| 06:45:03
| <indexzero> | No, that's weird. It works in a browser on the iriscouch downstream no problem |
| 06:45:04
| <indexzero> | http://isaacs.iriscouch.com/registry/_design/scratch/_view/byField?limit=10 |
| 06:45:23
| <indexzero> | maybe I'm derping here |
| 06:45:56
| <anvaka> | indexzero: sorry, I was unclear. You cannot make ajax request to that endpoint from a different domain |
| 06:46:59
| <anvaka> | indexzero: you can open that page directly without problems |
| 06:47:15
| <anvaka> | indexzero: cross-domain ajax fails |
| 06:47:19
| <rowbit1> | Hourly usage stats: [developer: 0, free: 42] |
| 06:47:42
| <indexzero> | Right, but not from fullfatdb.npmjs.com … trying to understand the difference |
| 06:47:49
| <indexzero> | maybe a config is different I guess |
| 06:48:51
| <anvaka> | fullfatdb currently returns this method may not be used on all my requests |
| 06:48:53
| <anvaka> | https://fullfatdb.npmjs.com/registry/_design/scratch/_view/byField?limit=10 |
| 06:49:18
| <anvaka> | https://skimdb.npmjs.com/registry/_design/scratch/_view/byField?limit=10 - this works |
| 06:50:05
| <anvaka> | https://skimdb.npmjs.com/registry/_design/scratch/_view/byField?limit=10&callback=foo - this does not wrap body into callback 'foo', which does not work for jsonp |
| 06:52:08
| <indexzero> | hmmm … ok |
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| <substack> | o_O |
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| <calvinmetcalf> | substack: https://github.com/isaacs/readable-stream/pull/83 |
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| <calvinmetcalf> | not **just** bitching about stuff on twitter |
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| <creationix> | so I think I finally realized my problem with tiny npm modules and large npm modules |
| 18:16:00
| <creationix> | I agree that function-level modularity is ideal for code reuse, but the overhead of creating a package is way too high for such a granular approach |
| 18:16:49
| <creationix> | I would love an editor where I just created a new module (like I create a new file today) marked it with some metadata like the signature, tags, topic group, etc |
| 18:17:17
| <creationix> | then whenever I need that code, I search for it locally and it inserts the proper require for it. |
| 18:17:26
| <Raynos> | thlorenz: https://github.com/thlorenz/doctoc/pull/29 |
| 18:17:27
| <Raynos> | :D |
| 18:18:08
| <thlorenz> | Raynos: did you edit this in github? |
| 18:18:16
| <Raynos> | yes >_>; |
| 18:19:11
| <thlorenz> | thanks |
| 18:19:13
| <thlorenz> | pulled |
| 18:19:24
| <creationix> | Raynos, ever tried editing in tedit yet? |
| 18:19:34
| <Raynos> | not yet |
| 18:19:41
| <Raynos> | there is not "edit in tedit" button on github :P |
| 18:19:54
| <creationix> | nope, there's an edit github button in tedit |
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| <Raynos> | thlorenz: how does https://github.com/thlorenz/doctoc/blob/master/lib/transform.js#L116-L119 work ? |
| 18:26:29
| <anvaka> | creationix: I built a generator to automate that overhead https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKsmKs9DzsE |
| 18:27:07
| <creationix> | anvaka, but you still need to name the modules and publish them to npm and github right? |
| 18:27:35
| <anvaka> | creationix: that's right |
| 18:27:38
| <thlorenz> | Raynos: stupidly right now, I need to fix it so it works more like docme via https://github.com/thlorenz/update-section |
| 18:27:50
| <Raynos> | thlorenz: I'm writing something that should help :) |
| 18:27:50
| <thlorenz> | Raynos: at this point the toc has to be at the top of your file ;( |
| 18:27:58
| <thlorenz> | just use update-section |
| 18:28:02
| <creationix> | anvaka, yeah, that's still way too much overhead for the kind of workflow I'm looking for |
| 18:28:09
| <thlorenz> | that'll do it, I just haven't had the time to do it yet |
| 18:28:19
| <Raynos> | thlorenz: no, I'm using a markdown parser + magic :D |
| 18:29:19
| <thlorenz> | ah, cool, I'll except PRs as long as all tests pass |
| 18:29:43
| <thlorenz> | but for replacing update-section would be sufficient |
| 18:31:54
| <Raynos> | im not sure how I want to do this atm |
| 18:33:50
| <thlorenz> | Raynos: ok, maybe I'll hack it once I'm in SFO |
| 18:34:04
| <thlorenz> | the parsing can change independently of it |
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| <Raynos> | thlorenz: https://github.com/thlorenz/doctoc/pull/30 :D |
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| <creationix> | Ok, I'll give medium a try, gists don't seem to work well for explaining concepts |
| 18:56:55
| <creationix> | https://medium.com/p/d8313c437fe4 |
| 18:57:09
| <creationix> | my idea (roughly) about micro modules with low overhead |
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| <Raynos> | thlorenz: i cant do it my way because I have no markdown serializer :( ( https://gist.github.com/Raynos/9374532 ) |
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| <chrisdickinson> | creationix: one nit: in chrome/v8 you can hot-rewrite functions |
| 19:28:45
| <creationix> | cool |
| 19:28:45
| <chrisdickinson> | (pause execution, rewrite, cmd + s, resume execution) |
| 19:28:53
| <chrisdickinson> | (works with node as well!) |
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| <creationix> | chrisdickinson, added a note to the post |
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| <jez0990> | creationix: you saw williamcotton's corslit stuff, right? |
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| <jez0990> | http://williamcotton.com/another-way-to-publish-code |
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| <jez0990> | function-level modularity and versioning is totally the right approach in the long term |
| 19:56:25
| <creationix> | jez0990, nice, I haven't come back to this since he was starting it |
| 19:57:57
| <jez0990> | I'm not sure it will have changed much, but asides from the amd design-decision it's a pretty compelling prototype |
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| <creationix> | right, it's not hard at all to scan for require calls |
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| <jez0990> | even that's too much, it would be better to visually represent the dependency graph at the same time |
| 20:02:29
| <jez0990> | perhaps even using icons / drawings for the modules... |
| 20:02:39
| <creationix> | yeah, I'm all for graphical and automatic dependency graphs |
| 20:03:00
| <creationix> | code is data is code |
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| <creationix> | that's why I've been playing with using git as a database |
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| <creationix> | like, a normal database, not a code revision control system |
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| <jez0990> | you mean you've building a pouchdb competitor? |
| 20:09:21
| <jez0990> | I strongly believe that nearly all human-inputted data should be stored immutably anyway |
| 20:09:28
| <jez0990> | *you've been |
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| <creationix> | more like finding creative ways to use git, I don't care about competing with existing DBs |
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| <jez0990> | naturally, competition is orthogonal to the hacker ethos |
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| <creationix> | though it turns out that hacker ethos works better if you have another existing source of income |
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| <jez0990> | creationix: you mean more than just in practical terms? |
| 20:26:12
| <creationix> | I mean, I've been working on open source fill-time for the last year, and despite writing enough code to be easily worth over $250k and giving it away for free, I don't have a way to pay my bills next month. |
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| <creationix> | donations and crowd-funding aren't enough |
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| <creationix> | ideally, I would write code that's worth value and the people who benifit from the code would share the cost so I can keep writing more |
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| <creationix> | but that's not the world we live in |
| 20:28:51
| <creationix> | though I do believe we'll get there some day |
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| <ogd> | i forget, if i am a transform stream and i have an error, am i supposed to do me.emit('error', err) and me.destroy() ? |
| 20:29:50
| <ogd> | or do i just do me.emit('error', err) |
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| <substack> | ogd: just emit error |
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| <chrisdickinson> | ogd: i think destroy is handled for you |
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| <ogd> | mmk sweet |
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| <jesusabdullah> | yo thlorenz it sounds like we're gonna be chillin' Thurs/Fri |
| 21:32:51
| <jesusabdullah> | and figuring out how to make our API work for you... should be EXCITING |
| 21:33:10
| <thlorenz> | jesusabdullah: cool, I'm gonna be in SFO though :) |
| 21:33:15
| <jesusabdullah> | oh crap |
| 21:33:17
| <jesusabdullah> | that's right |
| 21:33:18
| <jesusabdullah> | talk? |
| 21:33:22
| <jesusabdullah> | conf, rather? Which? |
| 21:33:24
| <thlorenz> | yes |
| 21:33:28
| <thlorenz> | jsfest |
| 21:33:35
| <thlorenz> | speaking at rejectjs |
| 21:33:47
| <terinjokes> | thlorenz: oh, right you're here? |
| 21:34:02
| <thlorenz> | terinjokes: not yet coming in tomorrow afternoon around 3 |
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| <terinjokes> | thlorenz: nice! |
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| <pkrumins> | new blog post about how we deploy code at browserling/testling with ploy: http://www.catonmat.net/blog/ploy-deployment-at-browserling/ |
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| <marcello3d> | who all here is going to jsfest? just relearned about it (saw it a few months back but forgot)---trying to see if I can get tickets but not sure what things to go to |
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| <marcello3d> | alright. picked TEoE, SUaD, DHTMLConf, and RejectJS |
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| <terinjokes> | thlorenz: going to DHTMLConf? |
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| <DTrejo> | marcello3d: I am! |
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| <marcello3d> | right on! which ones? |
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| <mikolalysenko> | rvagg: I want to get started on building a workshopper for glslify/gl-modules |
| 22:45:00
| <mikolalysenko> | do you have any recommendations on how to get workshopper running within a browser window? |
| 22:45:16
| <mikolalysenko> | ie, is there some sort of in browser testing harness that works nicely with workshopper? |
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| <dominictarr> | substack, ogd hey anyone want to ride bikes to mexico after nodeconf? |
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| <chrisdickinson> | mikolalysenko: i'd like to help with that process |
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| <chrisdickinson> | are you thinking that the workshop would operate entirely in browser? |
| 23:11:00
| <chrisdickinson> | (i.e., no CLI outside of "start running the workshopper!") |
| 23:13:05
| <chrisdickinson> | or would it be a mixed mode -- where verify pops open a browser window with your code and runs a canvas-verify module of some sort? |
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| <mikolalysenko> | chrisdickinson: I'm open to ideas |
| 23:18:59
| <mikolalysenko> | chrisdickinson: I was thinking about something kind of like a beefy interface |
| 23:19:12
| <mikolalysenko> | though maybe it could be integrated into a webpage and hosted on modules.gl |
| 23:19:38
| <mikolalysenko> | (also I need to revisit the dns hosting records for that and somehow get it working on gh-pages) |
| 23:19:47
| <chrisdickinson> | i was thinking along the beefy lines too -- i.e., `gl-workshopper verify program.js` would run beefy and pop open a window |
| 23:19:55
| <mikolalysenko> | yeah |
| 23:20:08
| <chrisdickinson> | and the verification bits would be "render into this offscreen canvas at a known h/w", perhaps, and compare |
| 23:20:27
| <mikolalysenko> | right, though it might be fun to have it draw some stuff to the browser window |
| 23:20:33
| <mikolalysenko> | so people could see the effects of their code |
| 23:20:40
| <chrisdickinson> | oh yeah |
| 23:20:48
| <chrisdickinson> | maybe have it mirror the commands to both somehow? |
| 23:20:54
| <chrisdickinson> | or only do the offscreen drawing on verify? |
| 23:20:57
| <mikolalysenko> | that could be neat |
| 23:21:10
| <mikolalysenko> | so I'm kind of two minds on the issue |
| 23:21:17
| <mikolalysenko> | on the one hand, editing text files in a browser sucks |
| 23:21:36
| <mikolalysenko> | and so it is better to let people just do that stuff using whatever system they like on their local computer |
| 23:21:45
| <mikolalysenko> | especially so they can save and review their progress |
| 23:22:02
| <mikolalysenko> | on the other hand though, it would be nice to have an in browser tutorial of some form |
| 23:22:18
| <mikolalysenko> | that could also work as a way to introduce people to glslify etc. |
| 23:22:27
| * chrisdickinson | nods |
| 23:22:29
| <mikolalysenko> | since you could just run some of the early examples in a page |
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| <chrisdickinson> | what about using something like exterminate? |
| 23:22:58
| <mikolalysenko> | hmm, how does that work? |
| 23:23:09
| <chrisdickinson> | where the workshopper runs entirely in browser, but the default interface is just a shell |
| 23:23:35
| <chrisdickinson> | that way verify could just plop iframes into the current window running the code |
| 23:23:39
| <mikolalysenko> | ah, I see |
| 23:23:45
| <mikolalysenko> | that could be really cool |
| 23:24:05
| <chrisdickinson> | the one downside i can see is that it distances folks from "how do i run this code" |
| 23:24:09
| <mikolalysenko> | yeah... |
| 23:24:14
| <mikolalysenko> | maybe simpler is better here |
| 23:24:32
| <mikolalysenko> | just have them run the workshopper, it pops up a window and draws some stuff |
| 23:24:39
| <mikolalysenko> | the results get read back from a local server |
| 23:25:12
| <mikolalysenko> | at least it gives us something to work from |
| 23:25:17
| * chrisdickinson | nods |
| 23:25:33
| <mikolalysenko> | and if the test cases are written against a generic interface, the rest of the details shouldn't matter too much if we change them |
| 23:25:51
| <mikolalysenko> | the other issue is the order in which to present the material |
| 23:25:56
| <chrisdickinson> | the bit that would be neat is to have (at the end of this) a way to test glslify modules |
| 23:26:00
| <mikolalysenko> | yeah |
| 23:26:04
| <mikolalysenko> | exactly what I was thinking |
| 23:26:22
| <mikolalysenko> | basically first do a set of lessons that just introduce glsl/glslify |
| 23:26:38
| <mikolalysenko> | starting from basic syntax and types, etc. |
| 23:26:48
| <mikolalysenko> | then writing fragment -> vertex shaders -> using modules |
| 23:27:04
| <mikolalysenko> | once that is done, then introduce the webgl modules |
| 23:27:32
| * chrisdickinson | nods |
| 23:27:36
| <chrisdickinson> | "here's how you draw a triangle" |
| 23:27:44
| <chrisdickinson> | should we grab prior art from nehe, perhaps? |
| 23:28:01
| <mikolalysenko> | nah, not sure if nehe is a great idea |
| 23:28:19
| <chrisdickinson> | well, to rephrase: borrow the progression of lessons from nehe |
| 23:28:47
| <mikolalysenko> | not really a huge fan of that, I think nehe follows gl1.0 too closely and goes off into the weeds pretty quickly |
| 23:29:23
| <mikolalysenko> | probably a saner progression is to start with shaders and related syntax, introduce buffers and basic drawing commands, then move onto textures, fbos, etc. |
| 23:29:41
| <mikolalysenko> | just focus on explaining the capabilities of the drawing api before getting into 3d matrix math |
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| <chrisdickinson> | interesting |
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| <chrisdickinson> | i.e., start with fragment shaders, then vertex, then drawing commands? |
| 23:30:17
| <mikolalysenko> | yep |
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| 23:30:21
| <chrisdickinson> | sounds good |
| 23:30:30
| <chrisdickinson> | gets people drawing things immediately |
| 23:30:32
| <mikolalysenko> | make sure everyone understands basic 2d drawing 100% before introducing 3d concepts |
| 23:30:35
| <mikolalysenko> | yeah |
| 23:30:48
| <mikolalysenko> | since really before you can understand 3d you need to understand all the basics first |
| 23:30:49
| <chrisdickinson> | and sets up fragment shaders as "this is how you draw onto a surface" |
| 23:31:09
| <mikolalysenko> | yeah, or more to the point think of fragment shader as tiny programs that run on the gpu |
| 23:31:17
| * chrisdickinson | nods |
| 23:31:21
| <mikolalysenko> | it is also good to get used to the weirdness of shaders right away |
| 23:31:32
| <mikolalysenko> | the main sticking point is that all computations in shaders are finite |
| 23:31:38
| <mikolalysenko> | so no loops and no dynamic memory |
| 23:31:46
| <chrisdickinson> | it might be good to have a glsl linter module by then |
| 23:31:52
| <chrisdickinson> | so we can give folks intelligent feedback |
| 23:31:52
| <mikolalysenko> | once you understand that and get used to the syntax it is easy to compute with them |
| 23:32:13
| <mikolalysenko> | a linter could be nice, but maybe lower priority |
| 23:32:24
| <chrisdickinson> | (since you can loop, but you have to be looping up to a constant) |
| 23:32:45
| <mikolalysenko> | right |
| 23:32:49
| <mikolalysenko> | all loops must terminate in glsl |
| 23:33:03
| <mikolalysenko> | same with recursion and so on |
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| 23:34:04
| <mikolalysenko> | I think if you just stick to glsl you can introduce all the basic stuff, like the different types, texture memory, and possibly even basic gpgpu stuff |
| 23:34:20
| <substack> | I think agda or coq is the same way |
| 23:34:21
| <mikolalysenko> | like the final exercise for glslify could be to implement a gpu based game of life or similar cellular automata |
| 23:34:27
| <substack> | enforcing non-halting behavior |
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| 23:35:39
| <chrisdickinson> | hmm |
| 23:36:08
| <chrisdickinson> | i think a lot of it should be in glsl, but it'd be desirable to move out of it after about 2-3 lessons and show how things are wired up at the js level |
| 23:36:23
| <mikolalysenko> | eventually yes |
| 23:36:46
| <chrisdickinson> | it'd be cool for the final lesson to be wiring up your own voxel clone :) |
| 23:36:55
| <mikolalysenko> | but I think learning how to use things before learning how to wire them up might be easier |
| 23:37:06
| <mikolalysenko> | since you only have to learn one thing at a time instead of two |
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| <mikolalysenko> | by the end of the glslify workshop, they should have a basic enough understanding to create stuff on shader toy for example |
| 23:38:37
| <mikolalysenko> | or at least get some crude examples working |
| 23:41:22
| * substack | built an implicit surface solver once in glsl using macros >:D |
| 23:41:57
| <substack> | still on github but I would be hard-pressed to find it |
| 23:43:04
| <substack> | mikolalysenko: hah when I search "implicit surface" something you made is #1 in the results |
| 23:44:13
| <mikolalysenko> | substack: haha |
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| <mikolalysenko> | I just tried it, but #1 is some irrelevant thing |
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| <mikolalysenko> | chrisdickinson: so thinking about glslify from the perspective of glsl first, it might be fun to have students first do a full set of glsl activities, then in the second part go through and hook up their solutions to handle all the webgl plumbing |
| 23:56:39
| <mikolalysenko> | like part 1 = glslify tutorial, just write shaders |
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| <mikolalysenko> | and part 2 = take stuff from part 1 and glue it all together |
| 23:57:11
| <chrisdickinson> | that would be neat |
| 23:57:39
| <mikolalysenko> | that way they would only have to debug one thing at a time as they are writing their code |
| 23:58:03
| <chrisdickinson> | i think one thing i liked about nehe (from way, way, *way* back) was that often the lessons were springboards for things i wanted to build anyway |
| 23:58:03
| <chrisdickinson> | in particular "here's how you do fps controls" was pretty rad |
| 23:58:29
| <chrisdickinson> | but having a few of those mixed into the latter workshop would be grand, and i think it would get people excited to take what they learned and build on it |
| 23:58:34
| <mikolalysenko> | yeah |
| 23:58:51
| <mikolalysenko> | I think somewhere in there we have to talk about clip coordinates |
| 23:58:53
| <chrisdickinson> | re: the glslify tutorial, how would you go about integrating the vertex shader? |
| 23:59:05
| <mikolalysenko> | just have them write two shaders |
| 23:59:18
| <chrisdickinson> | ah, cool |
| 23:59:29
| <mikolalysenko> | it might also be the right time to bring in clipping/transformations |
| 23:59:50
| <mikolalysenko> | vertex shaders also introduce the concept of attributes and varying variables |
| 23:59:56
| <chrisdickinson> | yep |