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00:02:07  <brycebaril>ogd: awesome, all merged & published! thx
00:02:30  <ogd>w00t
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00:40:14  <substack>defunctzombie_zz: won't require('./node_modules/util') in your assert library break if npm factors the util module up a directory?
00:40:54  <substack>also it does Object.keys()
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01:58:28  <Raynos>substack: https://github.com/defunctzombie/commonjs-assert/commit/a5ca50babecb0db624a497c57f7de34e7e2c743d
01:58:32  <Raynos>use the latest version of util
01:58:35  <Raynos>of assert*
01:59:45  <substack>whaaa
01:59:59  <substack>oh cool
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02:18:56  <Nexxy>browserling.com seems down ._.
02:21:19  <substack>whoops
02:22:21  <substack>one of the processes is pegged at 90+% cpu
02:22:37  <ogd>sorry i was running a bitcoin miner in a testling test
02:22:41  <ogd>actually dogecoin
02:22:57  <AvianFlu>SO DOGE, SUCH VENICE
02:24:04  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 0, free: 3]
02:24:09  <substack>Nexxy: seems to have fixed itself!
02:24:38  <Nexxy>nice
02:24:54  <Nexxy>lol ogd
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02:48:01  <thlorenz>Raynos: that's a neat little trick that "path trick" someone should blog about it
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03:03:11  <thlorenz>Raynos: defunctzombie_zz woop de doo: http://thlorenz.com/blog/local-modules-path-trick
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03:31:36  <grncdr>I'm coming back to Oakland! In roughly Feb.
03:31:55  <ogd>w00t
03:32:28  <grncdr>we're going to ditch the trailer this time
03:32:37  <grncdr>do an airbnb to stay in the city more
03:33:10  <grncdr>things I have figured out. staying in a trailer for 6 months is too long
03:33:14  <grncdr>:P
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03:35:14  <ogd>streams2 question: if i make a transform stream (via through2 or whatever) e.g. var x = makeATransformStream()
03:35:33  <ogd>then i do x.push(buffer); x.push(anotherBuffer);
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03:35:41  <ogd>it only emits the first buffer
03:35:52  <ogd>because i think transform streams expect you to only push from the _transform callback
03:36:18  <ogd>but since i'm pushing externally there is no callback to call
03:37:00  <ogd>question is: how do I get a transform stream to emit data from outside the _transform function
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03:44:15  <ogd>i asked here https://github.com/rvagg/through2/issues/6
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03:47:25  <grncdr>hm, does it work with a plain readable stream?
03:47:53  <ogd>yea
03:48:10  <grncdr>weird
03:49:42  <grncdr>the push method on Through is inherited from Readable… so I'm not sure why it would behave differently
03:49:56  <grncdr>but the various stream constructors are kind of crazy :\
03:53:52  <ogd>oh i think i can do
03:54:09  <ogd>stream._transformState.afterTransform()
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04:24:04  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [free: 17]
04:24:19  <ogd>nvm seems im crazy and it works
04:24:23  <ogd>i just had stupid test code
04:24:54  <ogd>also this is some of the craziest code i've written lately https://github.com/maxogden/multiplex/blob/master/index.js
04:25:14  <defunctzombie>where are all the colons?
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04:26:31  <ogd>in the for loop where they belong
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04:43:24  <grncdr>I like it
04:43:34  <grncdr>read it, felt like I understood what was going on
04:43:46  <grncdr>+1 would read again ;)
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04:57:45  <defunctzombie>feels so naked
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05:09:05  <substack>new browserify things: --bare
05:09:10  <substack>in 3.5.0
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05:54:08  <jesusabdullah>--bare ? what does that do ?
05:55:52  <ogd>doesnt do any of the node shims
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06:00:50  <substack>dominictarr: browserify --bare
06:01:02  <substack>turns the shims off
06:01:52  <substack>so you can use browserify for bundling node code much more easily now
06:03:21  <dominictarr>substack, nice!
06:04:01  <ogd>dominictarr: i made this in homage to you https://github.com/maxogden/multiplex
06:04:21  <dominictarr>ogd, I saw! does it do back pressure?
06:04:45  <ogd>dominictarr: i havent implemented duplex yet actually but its using through2 so should be fine
06:06:23  <dominictarr>I think it's more complicated in this case... you probably should send backpressure messages, or something
06:06:37  <dominictarr>hmm, mux-demux does that, but not very well, to be honest.
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06:07:12  <ogd>ah i see what you mean
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06:14:07  <dominictarr>ogd, you might do a pull style, where each substream sends a message to request more data (which is how zeromq works) or send a nak/ack to prevent more data, which is how tcp works.
06:14:21  <dominictarr>needless to say, this will make your module a lot more complex.
06:15:16  <dominictarr>ogd, I think you need to handle a few edgecases at least: like what happens if a substream is still reading, but the parent stream ends?
06:16:07  <dominictarr>mux-demux emits end on the substream, unless you create MuxDemux with {error: true} option.
06:16:45  <dominictarr>if multiplex handled provided that too we could just drop it into, say, multilevel
06:18:37  <substack>johnkpaul: I'm thinking about how we can have better first-class support for splitting things into separate bundles
06:19:31  <dominictarr>substack, did you see: https://github.com/dominictarr/lamport
06:20:34  <substack>neat!
06:21:50  * substackalso scampering to finish up testling-server
06:21:56  <substack>so we can turn on the money faucet for that
06:22:03  <substack>to at least recoup the server costs
06:23:59  <dominictarr>is there a decent/fast html parser?
06:24:04  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [free: 21]
06:24:08  <substack>dominictarr: what kind?
06:24:22  <substack>there are different use-cases
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06:25:54  <dominictarr>I want to rewirte wget so that I can replicate sites locally
06:26:10  <dominictarr>wget doesn't work well because I can't filter the urls to download
06:26:38  <dominictarr>and it downloads in a dumb order and doesn't convert to local links until it's saved
06:26:50  <dominictarr>basically, I want to replicate wikitravel.org
06:27:02  <dominictarr>but only the places I intend to visit
06:27:44  <jesusabdullah>so I'm probably gonna get a job offer from paypal tomorrow
06:27:45  <jesusabdullah>:.
06:27:47  <jesusabdullah>:/*
06:28:07  <jesusabdullah>I think their offer's gonna be pretty good, and like I enjoyed talking to everyone and it sounds kinda cool
06:28:23  <jesusabdullah>but like everyone else is still scratching their asses y'know? crap
06:29:51  <dominictarr>jesusabdullah, "the worlds most loved way to pay and be paid"
06:30:03  <jesusabdullah>just about :P
06:30:13  <jesusabdullah>seriously though, everyone I talked to was pretty chill
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06:31:05  <dominictarr>may I suggest changing the slogan to "you hate us but there is no other option"
06:31:41  <dominictarr>or "the worlds worst way to pay, except for all the other ways"
06:32:06  <substack>jesusabdullah: ask if you can get your paychecks in bitcoin
06:32:23  <dominictarr>"the worlds most loathed way to pay and be paid" < that is the best, you only have to change one word!
06:32:42  <dominictarr>substack, +1
06:37:18  <ogd>didnt the paypal ceo say something like 'nfc is dead and bitcoin is the future' recently
06:39:59  <dominictarr>Raynos, I want an html parser that returns the formal ['div', {attrs}, child1, child2,...]
06:48:28  <jesusabdullah>substack: lolno
06:48:33  <jesusabdullah>substack: cash money
06:49:02  <jesusabdullah>I feel like I need to exit jobs more often if only to get good at being hired
06:50:54  <dominictarr>oh fuck, an html parser ALSO needs to have a javascript parser inside of it.
06:50:59  <dominictarr>what a pain in the butt
06:53:35  <jesusabdullah>substack: dominictarr http://koajs.com/
06:53:43  <jesusabdullah>Is it okay if I'm a little unnerved?
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06:54:40  <jesusabdullah>actually in some ways this sounds pretty sick
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06:55:01  <jesusabdullah>I wonder if node cbs can be used instead of generators though
06:55:25  <substack>jesusabdullah: what about it?
06:55:46  <substack>http.createServer() is pretty good
06:56:02  <jesusabdullah>idk, generators? and the first set of examples be all like, "req? res? what are those lol"
06:56:18  <jesusabdullah>they're in there, 'this' just has a ton of convenience stuff a la mikeal/request
06:56:25  <dominictarr>jesusabdullah, looks like another web framework to me
06:56:42  <jesusabdullah>I think it's the generators that freaked me out a little bit
06:56:51  <jesusabdullah>yeah def the generators
06:58:01  <jesusabdullah>I can see why generators would be useful for implementing this style of middlewares
06:58:32  <jesusabdullah>though I still say true middlwares are shim streams for req/res
06:58:35  <jesusabdullah>idk dude
06:58:57  <jesusabdullah>I guess the value isn't there for me, I'm pretty lazy
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07:01:05  <jesusabdullah>oh I get it, cute trick with the next
07:02:12  <dominictarr>everyone has an html parser but they all do it wrong!
07:03:06  <jesusabdullah>I don't need an html parser tho
07:03:25  <jesusabdullah>I'd just use the one node uses iirc it's stupid solid
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07:24:04  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [free: 61]
07:32:54  <dominictarr>oh, way better idea: I only want the attributes, so don't even parse the html...
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07:38:32  <substack>dominictarr: tr.selectAll('a[href]', function (elem) { elem.getAttribute('href', console.log) })
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07:51:43  <dominictarr>substack, trumpet?
07:52:23  <dominictarr>oh, I forgot about that...
07:52:32  <dominictarr>I have a thing now... oh well...
07:58:52  <dominictarr>TODO: mediawiki scraper, that is aware of language and edit history
07:59:04  <dominictarr>hmm, jiang was working on that, I recall?
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11:32:23  <rowbit>substack, pkrumins: Encoders down: (free5)
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16:43:46  <jugglinmike>ogd: Hey hey!
16:43:54  <ogd>jugglinmike: yo
16:44:23  <jugglinmike>I think there's something I'd like to change about npm, so I wanted to run it past you to see if it makes sense
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16:44:51  <ogd>jugglinmike: hah ok
16:45:16  <jugglinmike>I want npm to update the mtime (or system equivalent) of the node_modules folder, even when it doesn't grab new modules.
16:45:36  <jugglinmike>sorry--this is after running `npm install`
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16:46:12  <ogd>jugglinmike: whats the use case?
16:46:26  <jugglinmike>GNU Make
16:46:40  <jugglinmike>I want the node_modules target to depend on `package.json`
16:47:06  <jugglinmike>such that, if package.json changes, the target runs
16:47:25  <ogd>oh make wont do anything if mtime hasnt changed between runs?
16:47:35  <jugglinmike>well
16:47:42  <jugglinmike>if I express the dependencies like this
16:47:54  <jugglinmike>then it will always see that package.json is newer than node_modules
16:48:05  <jugglinmike>because NPM doesn't necessarily update the node_modules timestamp
16:48:08  <jugglinmike>so what happens
16:48:25  <jugglinmike>is that the `node_modules` target always executes
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16:48:52  <jugglinmike>What I'm looking for is: `make node_modules && make node_modules` to only attempt to fetch modules once
16:49:16  <jugglinmike>But now that I think about it, this might be a bad idea...
16:49:39  <jugglinmike>because the contents of `node_modules` might need to update, even when `package.json` hasn't changed
16:49:45  <ogd>yea
16:49:49  <jugglinmike>specifically, if you have fuzzy dependencies
16:49:58  <jugglinmike>~ and such
16:50:03  <ogd>also if you delete a folder from inside node_modules
16:50:19  <ogd>i think with fuzzies it wont upgrade unless a module is missing
16:50:33  <jugglinmike>oh, so forget that part
16:50:47  <jugglinmike>but your example--deleting stuff inside node_modules
16:50:52  <jugglinmike>hmm
16:51:05  <jugglinmike>I assumed that mtimes would update in that case
16:51:12  <jugglinmike>I'll test that
16:52:02  * kenperkinsquit (*.net *.split)
16:53:54  <jugglinmike>ogd: removing directories will update the parent's mtime
16:54:07  <ogd>ah cool
16:54:44  <isaacs>brycebaril: hrm. that sucks.
16:54:54  <ogd>isaacs: do you have feedback on jugglinmike's idea above?
16:54:55  <isaacs>brycebaril: i'm gonna just remove that req from the vdu for now.
16:55:05  <isaacs>ogd: no, didn't read it
16:55:18  <ogd>isaacs: a+ would read again
16:56:16  <isaacs>jugglinmike: sure, should be justan fs.utimes call.
16:56:17  <brycebaril>isaacs: yeah for that the other maintainer was able to publish whenever I couldn't
16:56:20  <isaacs>jugglinmike: patch welcome
16:56:27  <isaacs>brycebaril: right
16:56:35  <jugglinmike>isaacs: Awesome! Thanks for the confirmation; I'll submit one shortly :)
16:56:45  <isaacs>brycebaril: it should be copying the maintainers from the root to the new pkg doc
16:57:24  <jugglinmike>thanks also ogd
16:57:53  <ogd>:D
16:58:43  <AvianFlu>isaacs: I'm having that same problem
16:58:49  <AvianFlu>with the doc.maintainers thing
16:59:54  <rowbit>substack, pkrumins: A developer is waiting in the queue for explorer/11.0
17:00:04  * calvinfojoined
17:00:23  <isaacs>AvianFlu: try now
17:00:26  <isaacs>brycebaril: ^
17:00:38  <AvianFlu>word, worked that time
17:00:40  <AvianFlu>thanks isaacs!
17:00:43  <isaacs>that logic is a mess. it needs to be rewritten
17:01:18  <brycebaril>isaacs: I had the other maintainer publish yesterday so nothing to publish on that module atm, will let you know if I see it again
17:01:27  * _Contrachanged nick to contraha_
17:01:32  <isaacs>brycebaril: thanks, sorry for that hassle
17:01:47  <isaacs>thanks for being my guinea pigs, i know it's not alwasy convenient :)
17:02:07  <brycebaril>isaacs: no worries :)
17:02:21  * defunctzombiechanged nick to defunctzombie_zz
17:02:44  <isaacs>what's happening is that, if you have a pre-existing package, with multiple maintainers, it should be copying the root doc's "maintainers" field exactly, so that for every publish, you know who had access to the doc at that time
17:02:54  <isaacs>and it's not properly updating that field.
17:03:17  <isaacs>so, we'll have a *little* bit less trackability there, until it gets fixed, but this release fixes other bigger problems, so i'm gonna kick it down the road a little bit.
17:03:31  <isaacs>we're still preventing non-mainainers from publishing at all, which is actually the important part.
17:03:37  <AvianFlu>makes sense
17:03:38  <isaacs>nd tracking who did the actual publish.
17:03:43  <spion>the release = that atomic publish update? :D
17:03:44  <isaacs>that was just frosting anyway
17:03:47  <isaacs>spion: yes
17:03:50  <spion>yay
17:04:11  <isaacs>though, it comes around the same time as an iriscouch update that makes conflicts basically impossible.
17:04:22  <isaacs>(or, rather, irrelevant, since it resolves them in real time)
17:04:44  <isaacs>whatever, it's all good, from a "more technology tools and reliability" pov
17:05:24  <rowbit>substack, pkrumins: A developer is waiting in the queue for explorer/11.0
17:05:33  <spion>this.happy++
17:07:47  * mikolalysenkoquit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
17:13:54  <rowbit>substack, pkrumins: A developer is waiting in the queue for explorer/11.0
17:14:20  <ogd>have you guys seen the new es9 proposal https://twitter.com/maxogden/status/413718886152826880
17:21:50  * contraha_changed nick to contrahax
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17:23:55  <contra>ogd you're trying to kill me
17:24:04  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 12, free: 31]
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17:27:14  <ogd>contra: im working on a way to call FutureInvokers from Objective-C called FIFFI
17:27:24  <rowbit>substack, pkrumins: These encoders are STILL down:
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17:34:49  <contra>ogd im dead now. thanks
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17:36:24  <rowbit>substack, pkrumins: A developer is waiting in the queue for explorer/11.0
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17:47:32  <groundwater>sweet, another +1 for using the SD card
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18:19:54  <Raynos>dominictarr: you mean the formal jsonml ? I think there must exist one on the jsonml site.
18:24:04  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 6, free: 38]
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18:37:22  <defunctzombie>isaacs: what was the motivation for module cache only main?
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18:40:55  <rowbit>substack, pkrumins: Encoders down: (free5)
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19:01:13  <oren>what's the opinion about http://koajs.com/ ? (express with generators)
19:02:11  * ednapiranhajoined
19:03:01  <tmcw>seems like it'll be killer as soon as generators are in core
19:03:17  <tmcw>until then, it's hard (at least for me) to convince anyone to run an odd-number version of node
19:03:52  <Raynos>oren: even more magic then express
19:03:59  <Raynos>generators are good, but koajs is going the wrong way
19:04:05  <ogd>i like modules
19:04:09  <Raynos>tmcw: `npm i gnode`
19:04:42  <oren>Raynos: can u elaborate? what wrong way
19:05:02  <tmcw>fwiw, express's magic hasn't really burned me in many cases
19:05:25  <tmcw>though I would appreciate a lower level of magic if it was clear
19:05:58  <Raynos>oren: they have a context object with stuff on it and they abstract away from req / res
19:06:02  <Raynos>oren: also they have middleware
19:06:24  <Raynos>abstracting away from req / res is wrong.
19:06:32  <Raynos>middleware is an abstraction away from req / res so therefore wrong.
19:06:42  <Raynos>it breaks composability & interop with all of npm.
19:06:51  <Raynos>You can play in the walled garden that is koa if you wanted to
19:07:37  <oren>Raynos: please write a blog post about it. you need to educate the world!
19:07:42  * ednapiranhaquit (Quit: Leaving...)
19:07:48  * timoxleyjoined
19:08:27  <Raynos>BLARGH
19:08:36  <Raynos>oren: https://github.com/Raynos/http-framework
19:12:14  * timoxleyquit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
19:14:12  <mikolalysenko>oren: regarding koa, I think that middleware is generally a flawed concept
19:14:32  <mikolalysenko>you can just call functions and write normal structured code and get better results
19:14:49  <mikolalysenko>the underlying problem with middleware is that it tries to package all execution into a walk over some linked list
19:15:12  <mikolalysenko>this slows down processing requests that don't need some middleware, and can introduce subtle security and performance problems (like leaking data)
19:15:29  <mikolalysenko>also in middleware it is difficult to pass results from one component to another and to correctly order the dependencies
19:15:41  <grncdr>hm?
19:15:43  <mikolalysenko>if you just write ordinary boring structured code, then you don't have these problems
19:15:54  <grncdr>the last point I don't understand
19:16:26  <mikolalysenko>how do you pass data from one middleware component to another?
19:16:44  <mikolalysenko>for example, say you have a body parser, a session id look up and some data base component
19:16:57  <mikolalysenko>in a middleware library like express, the components don't directly talk to each other
19:17:08  <grncdr>right, I see what you mean now
19:17:11  <mikolalysenko>so instead they do screwy stuff like patching in extra properties to the request/response object
19:17:14  <grncdr>yep
19:17:17  <mikolalysenko>in a normal program, you'd just pass parameters
19:17:29  <mikolalysenko>basically communication in middleware happens using global shared state
19:17:38  <mikolalysenko>while in a normal structured program you just call functions/procedures
19:17:43  <Raynos>oren: https://github.com/Raynos/http-framework/blob/master/examples/mvc/features/user/index.js
19:17:46  <Raynos>ugh
19:17:53  <Raynos>oren: https://gist.github.com/Raynos/c1d42976faf8dd42d101
19:18:09  <Raynos>So the thing here is that generators are cool and they make things a lot nicer / cleaner.
19:18:10  <grncdr>*request-global, which is still pretty awful, but not as bad as actually-global global
19:18:12  * kanzure_changed nick to kanzure
19:18:35  <mikolalysenko>fair enough
19:18:44  <mikolalysenko>but you still run into conflicts with naming and other garbage
19:18:48  <grncdr>yes
19:18:49  <Raynos>miko: they do talk to each other. like `req.body`
19:18:58  <mikolalysenko>yeah, that is my point
19:19:02  <Raynos>oh ok :p
19:19:33  <Raynos>miko: have you seen https://github.com/Raynos/http-framework ?
19:19:38  <mikolalysenko>but I am trying to compare that style of communication by mutation to normal communication by passing parameters
19:19:50  <mikolalysenko>Raynos: yeah, it looks like it is coming along pretty well
19:19:54  * ednapiranhajoined
19:20:21  <grncdr>I think I should write a "framework" that just calls Object.freeze on req/res before passing them on to the users handler function
19:20:27  <grncdr>problem solved ;)
19:21:25  <mikolalysenko>well, maybe Object.seal() would be better. but yeah, totally agree that mutating that stuff is a horrible disaster
19:21:31  <ogd>grncdr: lol
19:21:51  <grncdr>I actually wrote an immutable object system a while ago
19:22:27  <grncdr>slow as molasses, but recursively freezes everything you give it
19:23:29  <grncdr>but you can still have methods on objects vs. functions that operate on data
19:24:04  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 4, free: 27]
19:24:51  <grncdr>(as compared to "pure functional" langs that make it hard to bundle behaviour and data into one "thing")
19:25:04  <mikolalysenko>also functional programming is often a lot slower
19:25:36  <mikolalysenko>it is really impossible/very difficult to implement most data structures in a functional language
19:25:48  <mikolalysenko>in fact, even the very concept of a "data structure" doesn't make a lot of sense in functional land
19:26:11  <grncdr>what do you think of clojure(script)s maps/vectors?
19:26:17  <mikolalysenko>they're ok
19:26:26  <mikolalysenko>persistent is different than functional though
19:26:49  <mikolalysenko>persistent data structures behave like they are functional, but they are usually implemented imperatively
19:27:00  <mikolalysenko>and they are also often a lot faster than functional data structures
19:27:35  <mikolalysenko>in fact, I view the existence of persistent data structures as strong circumstantial evidence that imperative languages are inherently more performant than functional languages
19:28:22  <mikolalysenko>but I do believe that there are still may merits to functional programming, it just comes with some overhead
19:28:38  <grncdr>so, humor a lay-programmer a bit… what divides "persistent" and/or "immutable" from "functional" data-structures?
19:29:06  <mikolalysenko>persistent is basically a property of a data structure
19:29:17  <mikolalysenko>it means that updates to it return a virtual copy
19:29:33  <mikolalysenko>functional means that it is implemented without any destructive updates
19:29:46  <mikolalysenko>all functional data structures are persistent, but not all persistent data structures are functional
19:30:06  <mikolalysenko>if you can implement something functionally, then it usually has a lot of advantages
19:30:16  <mikolalysenko>unfortunately, this is not always possible to do easily or efficiently
19:30:32  <mikolalysenko>for example, here is a functional red black tree structure I wrote: https://github.com/mikolalysenko/functional-red-black-tree
19:30:51  <mikolalysenko>one neat thing with functional structures is that it is easier to write iterators and traverse them
19:31:08  <mikolalysenko>the bad part though is that they are usually way harder to get right
19:31:23  <mikolalysenko>for example, I still don't know how to efficiently merge two binary search trees functionally
19:31:54  <mikolalysenko>nor do I know how to maintain threaded predecessor/successor pointers for faster in order traversal
19:32:06  <mikolalysenko>also I have no idea how to handle cycles in a functional structure either
19:32:10  <mikolalysenko>afaik, it can't be done
19:32:26  <mikolalysenko>these things can be done though with persistent data structures
19:32:45  <mikolalysenko>in fact, it is possible to take (almost) any imperative data structure and make it persistent with only O(1) overhead
19:33:50  <mikolalysenko>as a result, I am inclined to believe that there is a reasonable case to be made that imperative languages are "more powerful" than functional languages in the sense that there are certain operations that they can express which do not have any direct counterpart in the functional world
19:34:29  <mikolalysenko>of course you could still fake all of this with monads, but then you are basically reimplementing imperative programming
19:34:40  <Raynos>functional is more powerful differently
19:34:43  <Raynos>its easier to reason about
19:34:49  <mikolalysenko>that doesn't make it more powerful
19:34:51  <Raynos>its also more powerful in concurrency
19:35:01  <Raynos>imperative concurrency is hard.
19:35:03  <mikolalysenko>regexps are easier to reason about than general programs
19:35:10  <mikolalysenko>but that is because they are less powerful
19:35:15  <ogd>prettyrobots: how far off is your stuff from being able to power leveldown?
19:35:17  <mikolalysenko>the lack of power makes functional programming easier
19:35:28  <mikolalysenko>but it also makes it slower
19:35:43  <mikolalysenko>shared state and updates allow for certain optimizations that can't be expressed in a functional language
19:36:08  <mikolalysenko>you can still write functional style code in an imperative language, the converse is not true
19:36:26  <mikolalysenko>(granted, I am not saying that throwing more power at a problem is always a good idea)
19:36:34  <grncdr>Raynos, mikolalysenko: this is pretty good reading if you haven't read it before (I hadn't) http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~rwh/theses/okasaki.pdf
19:36:38  <mikolalysenko>if you can solve something using a simpler tool, then do it
19:36:39  <grncdr>*haven't
19:36:49  <mikolalysenko>grncdr: yeah, I have read that
19:37:04  <mikolalysenko>if you notice in his thesis he doesn't talk about deleting from red-black trees...
19:37:14  <mikolalysenko>the insert looks nice and easy, but the delete operation is a goddamn nightmare
19:37:27  <grncdr>I would believe that
19:37:39  <mikolalysenko>grncdr: https://github.com/mikolalysenko/functional-red-black-tree/blob/master/rbtree.js#L730
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19:41:18  <substack>http://www.reddit.com/r/javascript/comments/1t97zm/i_still_dont_understand_angular_knockout_backbone/ce5qg9y
19:45:12  <mikolalysenko>substack: general question, but are there any minimal modules that do data binding?
19:45:37  <Raynos>yes
19:45:44  <Raynos>http://www.ractivejs.org/
19:45:44  <mikolalysenko>it seems like the main thing all these frameworks really do (on top of extra styling/layout/etc. bs) is give you some data binding mechanism for the dom
19:45:56  <Raynos>https://github.com/dominictarr/hyperscript
19:45:58  <substack>mikolalysenko: yep! dominictarr has a really crazy simple one
19:46:21  <grncdr>Raynos: After spending some time with ractive I wouldn't really recommend it tbh
19:46:36  <Raynos>miko: https://github.com/Colingo/populate
19:46:58  <Raynos>grncdr: why ?
19:47:01  <grncdr>I ended up going to knockout for that project and was quite happy, but knockout has a lot of extra "stuff" in it that I didn't really use
19:47:23  <substack>mikolalysenko: https://github.com/dominictarr/observable
19:47:24  <Raynos>you can use dominictarr/observable or Raynos/observ
19:47:32  <substack>https://github.com/dominictarr/observable#input--transform
19:48:25  <grncdr>Raynos: I was having problems creating nested ractives and I felt like the data-binding didn't do as much as I wanted
19:48:34  <Raynos>I've used observ for my data and done data binding manually with dom manip in change handlers
19:48:43  <Raynos>I do prefer the hyperscript approach though
19:49:08  <mikolalysenko>substack: neat! I like observable
19:49:09  <grncdr>my memory isn't great, but I'm pretty sure that I had to do more work to propagate changes back to the DOM than I really wanted
19:49:35  <grncdr>I was going to try observable but being already behind I went with something I knew well enough to just roll forward with
19:50:22  <Raynos>ah ok :)
19:55:35  <jesusabdullah>guys I'm scared :(
19:55:46  <jesusabdullah>I might have to move again ;_l
19:55:48  <jesusabdullah>;_;
19:56:15  <ogd>south bay lol
19:57:59  <jesusabdullah>inorite
19:58:02  <jesusabdullah>I'm so sad
19:59:44  <substack>jesusabdullah: what about the not-south-bay?
19:59:58  <substack>surely there are jobs in places that aren't the south bay
20:00:09  <jesusabdullah>yeah but those aren't the ones I'm looking at
20:00:51  <ogd>well theres your problem
20:02:04  <jesusabdullah>you're completely ignoring circumstance here
20:02:06  <jesusabdullah>-_-;
20:03:04  <Raynos>http://swannodette.github.io/2013/12/17/the-future-of-javascript-mvcs/
20:03:14  <substack>just find some cardboard and a sharpie and write "will node.js for $$$" on it
20:03:28  <substack>and camp out inside of montgomery st station
20:03:33  <jesusabdullah>the situation is basically this: PayPal's probably going to make me an offer today, and I don't know that I can say no.
20:03:37  <substack>30 mins tops
20:04:06  <jesusabdullah>Cause I liked everyone I talked to, I really did
20:04:08  <jesusabdullah>got a good vibe
20:04:25  <jesusabdullah>tbh I just don't want to move again but the SLC tech scene's just not up to snuff
20:04:39  <jesusabdullah>idk, maybe I'll do ubiquiti remote
20:05:40  <jesusabdullah>thing is, I really really really suck at getting my offers in at the same time :(
20:05:43  <jesusabdullah>it's so hard!
20:07:08  <jesusabdullah>all that said, moving back to the bay
20:07:16  <jesusabdullah>would be really easy to find something closer to the city later
20:08:20  <substack>jesusabdullah: you could find an airbnb until you get a place for permanents
20:08:48  * timoxleyjoined
20:10:10  <jesusabdullah>substack: yeah, not too worried, the big companies will put you up in a hotel if necessary
20:10:19  <jesusabdullah>substack: mostly I just want roommates
20:11:31  * mikolalysenkoquit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
20:11:57  <grncdr>Raynos: nice, I hadn't seen that article yet
20:11:59  <jesusabdullah>jden: what's most important in terms of housing for me is surrounding myself with good people
20:12:44  <Raynos>I think its really good
20:12:48  <Raynos>I want to implement something like it
20:12:49  <Raynos>for frontend
20:12:55  <Raynos>but i still need to think harder about it
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20:14:12  <grncdr>Raynos: is "frontend" a module, or am I misunderstanding you?
20:14:33  <grncdr>I don't know what's more "frontend" than JS in the browser...
20:14:51  <Raynos>"for frontend"
20:14:52  <Raynos>means
20:14:58  <Raynos>"for solving the modular frontend apps" problem
20:15:02  <Raynos>because its a disaster atm
20:15:52  <grncdr>hm, I think the facebook guys are amenable to having React split up into separate modules
20:16:03  <grncdr>like, it's supposedly quite modular internally, just not packaged that way
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20:16:18  <grncdr>might be a simpler path to the same goal?
20:16:38  <Raynos>Oh
20:16:43  <Raynos>I think React is a soup
20:16:49  <Raynos>I dont want to depend on it
20:16:56  <Raynos>i just want to reimplement it to be modular
20:16:59  <Raynos>from the ground up
20:17:46  <grncdr>think it is? or have investigated and determined as much? I'm not trying to discourage you, just curious because that was dnolens initial impression as well
20:18:05  <grncdr>less than 2 weeks later he's got Om in a very good place ...
20:19:32  * enjaworkjoined
20:20:15  <grncdr>if you've looked into it and determined that React is a soup that's valuable info to me ;)
20:24:04  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 0, free: 28]
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20:54:06  <oren>Raynos: thanks for https://github.com/Raynos/http-framework i was looking for something like this for months.
20:55:32  <groundwater>ogd: did you have any problems getting dokku working at first?
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20:58:01  <Raynos>grncdr: I'm talking to dnolen & reactjs people. it seems like it might not be too bad
20:58:15  <Raynos>oren: o/
20:58:28  <grncdr>Raynos: is this happening in a channel somewhere? I'd like to listen in at least
20:58:54  <oren>Raynos: this was my attempt, i just copied from isaacs - https://github.com/oren/node-website-template
20:59:08  <jden>jesusabdullah: I'll be looking for a place to live in March, fwiw
20:59:29  * Guest44019changed nick to tilgovi
21:00:15  <jesusabdullah>jden: word, I'll keep that in mind
21:00:19  <Nexxy>jden, jesusabdullah hacker commune
21:00:25  <jesusabdullah>jden: why march?
21:00:36  <jesusabdullah>and yeah sounds like a good idea Nexxy lol
21:01:11  <jden>get back from Chattanooga
21:01:18  <jden>my lease in SF is up end of Jan
21:01:23  <Raynos>grncdr: #reactjs
21:01:31  <Nexxy>tennessee ;|
21:01:40  <grncdr>cool, catching up on the logs
21:03:17  <Raynos>oren: https://github.com/Raynos/http-framework/tree/master/examples/mvc
21:03:23  <Raynos>that's the most detailed example I have.
21:04:23  <guybrush>Raynos: well done, i like the repo a lot
21:05:08  <ogd>groundwater: its a little rough around the edges but its not too bad
21:05:31  <oren>i love the fact that each feauture lives in it's own folder
21:05:45  <ogd>groundwater: the new node.js buildpack isnt installed by default yet, so you have to ssh in and do this to get it installed https://twitter.com/maxogden/status/411296714109091840
21:06:04  <oren>what do u replace connect middleware with?
21:06:37  <Raynos>oren: https://github.com/Raynos/http-framework#connect-inspired-examples I'm working on it
21:06:44  <Raynos>i havn't replaced them all yet.
21:07:25  <oren>i just want to learn the method u use. i guess you don't add stuff to the req or res object? let me see.
21:09:34  * timoxleyjoined
21:09:51  <oren>so basic() return a function that accepts req, res, and callback
21:11:53  <oren>var isValid = csrf.validate(body, token)
21:12:47  <oren>interestingc
21:13:32  <defunctzombie>meh
21:13:44  <defunctzombie>Express is already basically just a router
21:14:07  * timoxleyquit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
21:14:59  <oren>defunctzombie: so u think there is no point not using express?
21:15:25  <defunctzombie>oren: I would never say that... you should always explore new things and methods
21:15:33  <defunctzombie>oren: but I personally get a lot of mileage out of express
21:15:41  <defunctzombie>without it feeling like it dictates how I build things
21:16:06  <defunctzombie>take that with a grain of salt tho as I help maintain express and have been using it for a long time
21:16:16  <defunctzombie>it has its warts like anything else
21:16:17  <oren>ok
21:16:52  <defunctzombie>it is always important to go back to the fundamentals to see if we can make new libs or ways of doing things
21:24:04  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 0, free: 45]
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21:39:14  <jesusabdullah>substack: I just bombed an interview that was web browser jeopardy
21:39:17  <jesusabdullah>substack: it was really funny
21:39:50  <jesusabdullah>substack: "how does hashing work with cookies?" "idk dude I use a library for it"
21:40:16  <jesusabdullah>substack: "ohh you wanted to make sure I had a vague understanding of encryption? THAT's cool"
21:40:26  <oren>hashing with cookies? not sure i understand that
21:40:46  <oren>):
21:40:48  <justinabrahms>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabis_foods ?
21:41:01  <oren>ahahh
21:41:04  <jesusabdullah>oren: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMAC
21:41:31  <jesusabdullah>oren: Seriously, no idea, it's just cryptographic magic I don't need to understand
21:41:45  <oren>oh
21:41:46  <Nexxy>dangerous sentiment
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21:42:42  <jesusabdullah>I mean don't get me wrong, if I was implenting users I'd totally dig in but like, I usually just use oauth with twitter or something
21:43:36  <jesusabdullah>so I should clarify: don't need to understand *right now*
21:44:40  <oren>jesusabdullah: any other interesting questions?
21:45:15  <chrisdickinson>aah, signed cookies?
21:46:07  <oren>https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4676676
21:46:07  <jesusabdullah>yeah
21:46:28  <jesusabdullah>oren: if you have 3 divs in another div how do you make the first div go to the bottom?
21:47:06  <oren>remove it first with query and add append it
21:47:15  <mikolalysenko>jesusabdullah: actually that is a pretty neat wiki article
21:47:19  <mikolalysenko>I didn't know this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMAC#Design_principles
21:47:21  <jesusabdullah>nonono, using css
21:47:28  <oren>jesusabdullah: oh shit
21:47:30  <jesusabdullah>mikolalysenko: Yeah I mean it's not that hmac is disinteresting
21:47:34  <mikolalysenko>(though I know hardly anything about crypto/security)
21:47:50  <jesusabdullah>oren: I mean, let's google it
21:48:09  * crankquit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
21:48:48  <oren>i don't even know what to google for (:
21:50:17  <mikolalysenko>I always think it is weird how with security they never really prove the systems are secure, only that there is no known way to break it yet
21:50:35  <mikolalysenko>since HMAC is really there just to address weakness in SHA/MD5 hashing schemes
21:50:39  <jesusabdullah>yeah
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21:52:20  <jesusabdullah>!google make div go to bottom
21:52:23  <_ddgbot1>https://encrypted.google.com/search?hl=en&q=make%20div%20go%20to%20bottom
21:52:45  <jesusabdullah>http://stackoverflow.com/questions/311990/how-do-i-get-a-div-to-float-to-the-bottom-of-its-container
21:52:48  <jesusabdullah>there you go
21:53:06  <jesusabdullah>a mix of relative, absolute, and there you go I guess
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21:53:25  <Raynos>defunctzombie: if you want just a router then require('routes')
21:53:26  <isaacs>defunctzombie: because it cuts down memory usage considerably, especially since we stash the readme on there
21:53:43  <isaacs>defunctzombie: and also, you couldn't actually get at any of the info except "main" anyway
21:53:52  <defunctzombie>isaacs: thanks :) yea I commented on the commit to get clarification
21:54:09  <defunctzombie>isaacs: I was confused cause I assumed it meant that somehow only the main .js file was cached
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21:54:25  <defunctzombie>and was just curious
21:54:32  <mikolalysenko>another area of security/crypto land that confuses and scares me are stream ciphers. I have no idea how or why any of those things work
21:54:34  <jesusabdullah>now, I'm cool with the idea at being incompetent, but I think that might have actually been an asshole question
21:54:55  <jesusabdullah>I mean, if you read that SO thread it's pretty obvious that shit gets whack
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22:11:24  <jesusabdullah>luk: Paypal's willing to let me stall them :o
22:11:31  <jesusabdullah>luk: maybe yahoo can talk to me after all!
22:13:00  <luk>jesusabdullah: asking someone now
22:13:41  <jesusabdullah>luk: awesome. Yeah, I don't want to stall them too long, I'm surprised they're letting me do so at all
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22:15:37  <jesusabdullah>I'm gonna acquire food
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22:16:04  <taterbase>jesusabdullah: for how much!?!?! $3b?
22:16:11  <taterbase>snapchat food
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22:24:04  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 0, free: 28]
22:24:23  * defunctzombiechanged nick to defunctzombie_zz
22:25:46  <Domenic_>i always wonder how much you can stall in these things
22:26:05  <Domenic_>like are they really willing to throw away all that sunk cost because you need a couple extra weeks?
22:26:40  <Domenic_>i guess they could figure that if you're stalling then clearly you're not their first choice
22:27:00  <Domenic_>and/or you're waiting for a better offer you can use as negotiating leverage
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22:38:06  <jesusabdullah>yeah
22:38:27  <jesusabdullah>Maybe?
22:38:33  <jesusabdullah>PayPal actually offered to wait
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22:39:00  <Domenic_>straaaaange
22:39:08  <jesusabdullah>inorite
22:39:19  <jesusabdullah>I think they heard me say "yahoo" and were like, "oh fuck"
22:39:37  <ogd>well played
22:41:03  <luk>Domenic_: thats not quite how it works
22:42:09  * lukchanged nick to st_luke
22:42:47  <jesusabdullah>ogd: well they asked me XD
22:42:57  * AvianFlujoined
22:43:09  <st_luke>you want people who decide to work somewhere instead of feeling pressured to make a decision as quickly as possible
22:44:05  <st_luke>they're just gonna leave otherwise
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22:47:56  <st_luke>its like that in nyc tho
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22:50:16  <ogd>substack: https://github.com/substack/stream-browserify/pull/4
22:50:27  <mikolalysenko>it finally works and is done! https://github.com/mikolalysenko/dynamic-forest
22:50:32  <mikolalysenko>or at least published
22:50:42  <mikolalysenko>will probably iterate on it a bit as needed
22:50:53  <mikolalysenko>in particular I am not 100% happy with the iterator interface...
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22:52:09  <ogd>mikolalysenko: make a demo on requirebin!
22:53:08  <mikolalysenko>ogd: great idea!
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23:00:46  <rowbit>substack, pkrumins: Encoders down: (free5)
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23:05:30  <defunctzombie>Domenic_: ping
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23:19:01  <mikolalysenko>have you guys seen this? https://github.com/wthimbleby/tailspin
23:19:05  <mikolalysenko>totally awesome imo
23:19:22  <mikolalysenko>he made this stuff with it: http://will.thimbleby.net/algorithms/doku.php
23:24:03  <rowbit>Daily usage stats: [developer: 2, free: 18]
23:24:04  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 2, free: 18]
23:24:16  <defunctzombie>nice
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23:32:45  <jesusabdullah>mikolalysenko: neat
23:33:38  <ogd>wanna test a thing i'm working on? https://github.com/maxogden/bws
23:33:50  <ogd>try it with large files, e.g. a bunch of mp3s
23:33:58  <ogd>(only tested in chrome so far)
23:37:48  <defunctzombie>ogd: what will it do?
23:37:58  <defunctzombie>that is the most barebones readme ever haha
23:38:16  <ogd>it will remove your /usr folder
23:38:24  <ogd>and upload it to snapchat
23:39:53  <defunctzombie>cool
23:39:58  <defunctzombie>it will be safe there
23:40:02  <defunctzombie>since they will store it for me
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23:54:08  <substack>https://github.com/substack/node-browserify/pulls
23:54:09  <substack>down to 0
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23:57:47  <groundwater>ogd: that's a pretty ominous readme
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