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01:17:49  <Raynos>isaacs: deep merging is a common feature request for cascading configs. Why is it out of scope other then "this module is done. go write your own"
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01:18:03  <Raynos>i'd rather not write my own config handling thing because blargh divergence
01:18:21  <chrisdickinson>mikolalysenko: since JS doesn't have guards, I tend not to subclass
01:18:24  <chrisdickinson>generally it seems like more trouble than it's worth
01:18:31  <Raynos>gaurds? subclasses?
01:18:55  <chrisdickinson>oh, just talking about subclassing `Error`; in JS it doesn't seem worth it to me
01:18:56  <Raynos>miko: https://github.com/Raynos/error/blob/master/option.js#L3 subclassing is a pain.
01:19:12  <Raynos>chrisdickinson: you mean lack of gaurds as in typed catch blocks ?
01:19:15  <chrisdickinson>also `Error.captureStackTrace(this)`
01:19:15  <chrisdickinson>yep
01:20:05  <Raynos>i should probably call `new Error(message)` there. But i need to read the ES5 spec really
01:20:17  <mikolalysenko>that's consistent with how I do it usually
01:20:58  <mikolalysenko>chrisdickinson: also regarding static analysis stuff, I got a draft of my proposal in and kind of cheated a bit and started hacking on something
01:21:06  <chrisdickinson>haha, awesome
01:21:18  <mikolalysenko>not ready to post it yet though, but I started putting together a basic control flow graph library
01:21:37  <mikolalysenko>the pipeline I am thinking of is esprima -> control flow -> ssa
01:22:02  <chrisdickinson>ah interesting
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01:22:07  <mikolalysenko>the goal with the control flow graph is to translate the parse tree into a manageable intermediate form that can be analyzed efficiently
01:22:21  <chrisdickinson>i was under the impression that you'd need ssa to do the cfg
01:22:26  <chrisdickinson>aah
01:22:30  <mikolalysenko>no, it is the other way around
01:22:34  <mikolalysenko>you need the cfg to generate ssa
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01:22:42  <mikolalysenko>ssa though is necessary to do type inference and stuff
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01:22:56  <mikolalysenko>though you can also generate ssa directly, but it is more complicated
01:23:40  <mikolalysenko>the goal that I am going for with this though is to just make as simple as possible of an intermediate representation that faithfully represents javascript
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01:24:03  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 0, free: 25]
01:24:04  <chrisdickinson>the cfg itself would be *immensely* useful
01:24:11  <mikolalysenko>yeah, I think it could be
01:24:42  <mikolalysenko>I think the real trick here is to do it with as few basic primitives/special cases as possible
01:25:02  <mikolalysenko>that way it will be much easier to build higher level analysis on top of it, since you won't have to implement so much stuff
01:25:15  <mikolalysenko>since right now analyzing raw esprima robustly and correctly is a total pita
01:25:43  <mikolalysenko>also: I think I can handle with statements!
01:26:13  <mikolalysenko>it is kind of a hack, but basically what you do is replace each variable access with a conditional check
01:26:34  <dominictarr>Raynos, you need too configuration files
01:26:41  <mikolalysenko>so x = "foo" becomes: if("x" in obj) { obj.x = "foo" } else { x = "foo" }
01:26:45  <dominictarr>one is for your application's configuration
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01:26:56  <dominictarr>the other, is to configure your configuration loader
01:27:58  <mikolalysenko>the resulting control flow graph will be inefficient, but at least whatever code consumes it won't even have to think about it
01:28:54  <mikolalysenko>at this point the only really troubling thing is eval...
01:29:08  <mikolalysenko>because of its screwy scope leakage...
01:30:24  <dominictarr>Raynos, turing complete config files are a bad idea...
01:30:34  <dominictarr>what do you need that JSON doesn't have? comments?
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01:41:59  <Raynos>dominictarr: i agree that json is better then js. js is nice because comments
01:42:12  <Raynos>js is also nice because DRY / computed properties
01:42:25  <ogd>Raynos: ooh https://npmjs.org/package/basic should be in http-framework, im gonna hook it up to auth-socket
01:42:52  <ogd>i know its good cause thisandagain wrote it :D
01:43:09  <Raynos>and lastly js is nice because fuck it `/* config.js */ module.exports = { db: level(...), blargh: blaz }`
01:43:14  <Raynos>ogd: https://github.com/Raynos/http-framework/issues/12
01:43:25  <ogd>ah cool
01:44:00  <Raynos>im currently back logged by documentation and porting hapi stuff :D
01:44:19  <Raynos>ogd: do you think the "alternatively by hand" sections in the README are actually useful ?
01:44:47  <Raynos>oh wow, `auth` looks a lot like what we did with auth-socket. Sweet!
01:46:48  <ogd>Raynos: yea
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01:53:12  <dominictarr>Raynos, I normally put a config.js in my program that loads the config from JSON flies, but handles all the defaults, etc
01:53:12  <dominictarr>also, there are modules that can do JSON with comments on npm
01:53:12  <dominictarr>also, you can use INI, which config-chain, and rc both support
01:53:12  <dominictarr>I'd recommend just using rc though.
01:53:21  <dominictarr>it's way simpler, and means that you don't have custom config loading code, which means you do not have to READ config loading code.
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01:59:28  <ogd>Raynos: have you thought about removing all the one line .js files from http-framework root folder? they add a lot of clutter imo
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02:09:36  <maksimlin>dominictarr: just replied to your hipster comment about terminal esc seq's
02:09:59  <maksimlin>hope I'm helping instead of going down the wrong path
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02:17:06  <Raynos>dominictarr: I guess that makes sense. what if you want cascading config.js ?
02:17:14  <thlorenz>so I want to publish a 2.x patch of my module, but want to keep the already published 3.x version being the latest - how do I do that?
02:17:49  <Raynos>ogd: maybe move it to a modules folder ? I placed all the one line .js files in there so that people can "discover" the recommended modules in source code format rather then documentation README format
02:18:05  <ogd>Raynos: ah i see
02:18:09  <Raynos>ogd: also as an example of "this is how you build a framework. re export modules that solve the problem and combine them"
02:18:19  <Raynos>which is more of a joke then anything
02:18:21  <ogd>Raynos: lol
02:18:25  <ogd>Raynos: yea i think its a little confusing
02:18:56  <Raynos>if I move them to a `modules` folder then `require("http-framework/modules/foobar")` will be awkward and discourage people doing it
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02:20:31  <thlorenz>I mean there must be a module out there that maintains multiple separate versions?
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02:22:14  <thlorenz>defunctzombie: aren't you maintaining two majors for zuul - how do you go about publishing a patch for the older major to npm?
02:22:40  <defunctzombie>thlorenz: there is only one major for zuul
02:22:57  <defunctzombie>thlorenz: once I bump major I don't maintain the older one really
02:23:08  <defunctzombie>thlorenz: the project is not big enough for that level of maintenance
02:23:16  <defunctzombie>thlorenz: we don't even maintain old majors in express
02:23:30  <thlorenz>defunctzombie: ah, ok, I just need to publish a patch ot an older version to npm right now
02:23:41  <thlorenz>when I did that it automatically became the latest
02:23:54  <defunctzombie>thlorenz: yea, there is something you can set with npm to not do that
02:23:54  <thlorenz>so npm doesn't consider version nums but publish date in that case
02:24:03  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 0, free: 16]
02:24:04  <defunctzombie>thlorenz: yea.. sounds like a bug
02:24:43  <thlorenz>maybe isaacs knows how I can do this, maybe by adding a dist-tag to my package.json?
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02:29:19  <defunctzombie>thlorenz: https://coderwall.com/p/l_7acq
02:29:37  <defunctzombie>thlorenz: but I agree that version number should still take precedence in your case
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02:33:17  <thlorenz>defunctzombie: ah, actually saw that, but misunderstood what it said, thought my version will have beta appended as in 1.2.2-beta, thanks
02:34:07  <thlorenz>defunctzombie: it actually worked \0/
02:34:55  <thlorenz>that's actually quite neat and not necessarily a bug cause by default you publish to 'latest' tag, so ...
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02:47:10  <defunctzombie>thlorenz: yea, but it should still take into account version numbers
02:47:25  <defunctzombie>thlorenz: otherwise you get behavior that is different than what you would expect
02:47:29  <defunctzombie>and might not event notice it
02:47:57  <thlorenz>defunctzombie: true, but how would I then specify to actually make an older version the 'latest' for whatever reason?
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02:48:30  <defunctzombie>thlorenz: wut
02:48:55  <defunctzombie>thlorenz: outside of things tagged with beta, the newest version is the highest number
02:49:00  <thlorenz>i.e. I decided that v5 is to smart for this century and want to make v4 latest
02:49:14  <defunctzombie>thlorenz: you would take v4 and publish it as v6
02:49:24  <defunctzombie>essentially choosing to publish older code
02:49:27  <defunctzombie>but with a new number
02:49:31  <thlorenz>defunctzombie: point taken -- case closed :)
02:53:25  <thlorenz>tried to be as diplomatic as possible with the grunt folks in explaining them that no one actually needs grunt: https://github.com/thlorenz/browserify-shim/issues/22#issuecomment-30195313
02:54:35  <substack>haha
02:55:15  <thlorenz>substack: btw why browserify v3 - trying to keep up with browserify-shim ?
02:55:32  <thlorenz>seriously though didn't see a breaking change since last v2
02:55:36  <substack>breaking change with the new Buffer stuff from feross
02:55:48  <thlorenz>ah - that makes sense -- cool
02:55:56  <substack>the changes were pretty small
02:56:03  <substack>http://substack.net/browserify_v3_0_changelog
02:56:46  <thlorenz>at least now the versions are back in sync with each other, I like that
02:57:33  <thlorenz>substack: also like you ditched browser-builtins - I remember promising to help, but then got busy
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03:05:52  <Domenic_>creationix: https://github.com/whatwg/streams/issues/47#issuecomment-29955857 ?
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03:06:37  <Domenic_>(other peoples' comments welcome. it's the whole transform streams vs. duplex streams and { in, out } vs. single-object thing again.)
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03:08:09  <substack>I'm pro transform stream
03:08:15  <Domenic_>as single object?
03:08:30  <Domenic_>with both readable and writable methods?
03:09:28  <substack>yes, a single
03:09:38  <substack>because I'm not sure how in/out would work
03:09:46  <substack>we have in+out examples aplenty in node
03:10:21  <substack>raynos makes a good point about spawn()
03:10:35  <Domenic_>yeah
03:10:42  <Domenic_>but we could make pipe() work with { in, out } objects
03:10:45  <Domenic_>not sure if good idea
03:10:53  <Domenic_>editing OP to clarify the problem now
03:13:37  <Domenic_>ok clarified. but substack i get what you're saying. hard to decide but yeah { in, out } for "telephone" streams doesn't work very well.
03:14:00  <Domenic_>or rather, hasn't been proven to work very well
03:14:05  <Domenic_>errr
03:14:09  <Domenic_>i meant for meat-grinder streams
03:14:17  <Domenic_>it *has* been proven to work ok for telephone streams
03:14:54  <substack>if we had some examples of the in/out way it would make sense to decide but we only had examples of the node way really
03:15:22  <substack>and it's best to go with approaches that have been tried out and work well in practice
03:15:38  <Domenic_>agreed
03:16:12  <Domenic_>at some point in the next few weeks it might be nice for you to write a short email or blog post explaining why these streams are better than the w3c streams. you have streams cred :)
03:16:27  <Domenic_>but these need a couple more weekend-days of work
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03:22:52  <Raynos>substack: the { in, out } streams are kind of unproven. They might be nice.
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03:24:04  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 1, free: 64]
03:24:38  <Domenic_>I am icked out by the polymorphic pipe
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03:27:22  <substack>Domenic_: I'm not sure what the w3c streams are about
03:27:25  <substack>which link is that?
03:28:24  <Domenic_>substack: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/streams-api/raw-file/tip/Overview.htm
03:28:54  <Domenic_>bytes only, forced async, non-chainable pipe are my top complaints
03:29:03  <Domenic_>but generally they are not learning node's lessons
03:29:31  <Domenic_>oh and string decoding and mime types, lylz
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03:33:11  <substack>Domenic_: oh yeah I wasn't sure where to start with that one
03:33:36  <substack>not much common ground starting out with
03:34:06  <Domenic_>it's gotten better over time
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04:01:07  <jesusabdullah>substack: is the os module browserifyable?
04:01:12  <jesusabdullah>substack: ooc
04:01:29  <substack>yep
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04:01:44  <substack>https://npmjs.org/package/os-browserify
04:02:37  <jesusabdullah>substack: but if you have a module which does a require('os') deep down, that'll barf?
04:02:52  <jesusabdullah>I don't really give a fuck, some dude is trying to browserify winston for some reason
04:03:56  <substack>require('os') works fine
04:04:04  <jesusabdullah>oh
04:04:05  <jesusabdullah>well
04:04:09  <substack>unless you're using an ancient version of browserify
04:04:09  <jesusabdullah>still zero fucks given
04:04:17  <jesusabdullah>oh, possible, but I doubt it's THAT old
04:04:49  <jesusabdullah>https://github.com/jesusabdullah/browserify-cdn/blob/master/package.json#L9 is this sane?
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04:06:38  <jesusabdullah>substack: ^^
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04:17:00  <jesusabdullah>substack: nvm got timoxley on the case
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04:19:32  <timoxley>jesusabdullah: yeah I ran into the os issue in the past, no problems with recent versions though
04:19:46  <jesusabdullah>timoxley: word, bumped it on fhqwhmaster
04:19:58  <jesusabdullah>browserify-cdn needs more love from me :(
04:20:33  <jesusabdullah>this week's stupid busy though, at least 7 phone interviews, a dr's appt, 2x coding events, and I have to jump-start my car tomorrow morning because I left the lights on---oh, and a "side gig"
04:20:43  <jesusabdullah>much exhaust
04:21:01  <jesusabdullah>but at least I'm getting ecstatic PRs merged in
04:21:14  <jesusabdullah>I love how the vast majority of recent development has come from outside, it's fuckin' awesome
04:21:28  <jesusabdullah>now if only someone would fix the autoIndex + showDir clash bug
04:23:37  <timoxley>jesusabdullah: what is the issue?
04:24:04  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 0, free: 53]
04:25:05  <jesusabdullah>timoxley: not 100%, but basically if you have both turned on and no index.html (or something like this) you'll get an ACCESS DENIED error that makes no sense
04:25:19  <jesusabdullah>timoxley: I need to write up a test case for it I think
04:26:11  <ogd>jesusabdullah: locally w/ browserify 3 doing browserify -r winston works
04:26:21  <jesusabdullah>ogd: I'd believe it
04:26:21  <ogd>jesusabdullah: but on browserify-cdn i get stderr: Error: ENOENT, open 'os'
04:26:28  <jesusabdullah>weird
04:26:33  <jesusabdullah>I wonder what the deal is with that
04:26:40  <jesusabdullah>too tired to properly triage
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04:27:28  <ogd>jesusabdullah: doesnt seem to bean issue with winston, i get the same error on other modules that require os
04:28:07  <techwraith|out>did we miss an npm install somewhere?
04:28:16  <jesusabdullah>ogd: Yeah I've reached the same conclusion
04:28:26  <jesusabdullah>ogd: made an issue, will try to dig in when I have some spare time :)
04:28:43  <techwraith|out>oh, browserify-cdn, nevermind
04:29:04  <jesusabdullah>ogd: I've been meaning to do a browserify-cdn coding spree, actually started but then, job interviews
04:30:01  <ogd>ahh yea
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04:30:50  <ogd>running browserify with options: `["--standalone","binary-split","/tmp/binary-split1131110-19960-3mrthy/node_modules/binary-split/index.js"]
04:30:59  <jesusabdullah>The # of job interviews is too damned high
04:31:00  <ogd>jesusabdullah: o/ you can pass a third argument?
04:31:13  <jesusabdullah>huh?
04:31:18  <jesusabdullah>I, uhh, don't remember?
04:31:23  <jesusabdullah>Sorry I'm pretty swiss cheesed
04:31:26  <ogd>heh
04:31:44  <guybrush_>woah browserify is now 3? why the major bump, is it because of getting new streams into builtins?
04:32:02  <ogd>guybrush_: theres a blog post
04:32:10  <substack>guybrush_: http://substack.net/browserify_v3_0_changelog
04:32:11  <guybrush_>omg i did miss it
04:32:15  <guybrush_>tyvm
04:33:04  <substack>and feross is working on getting native-buffer-browserify to even work with the typearray polyfill I just ripped out of some other lib
04:34:32  <substack>so we'll have fast Buffers with [n] indexes AND old browser support
04:34:34  <substack>all in one thing, yay
04:34:41  <substack>and everybody wins
04:35:02  <chapel>good stuff substack
04:35:19  <guybrush_>its like christmas!
04:35:38  <ogd>moduleannukah
04:37:53  <ogd>jesusabdullah: ahh, cdn isnt using the browserify from its node_modules, it uses the one from $PATH
04:38:03  <jesusabdullah>AT
04:38:05  <jesusabdullah>WAT*
04:38:15  <jesusabdullah>oh, uhh, are you using npm start?
04:38:21  <jesusabdullah>I thought it would use the one in .bin ?
04:38:38  <jesusabdullah>That's no good!
04:38:46  <ogd>jesusabdullah: you just do process.spawn or whatevs
04:38:50  <ogd>spawn('browserify')
04:39:16  <jesusabdullah>ahh, node won't inherit the $PATH from npm start? I thought npm scripts had .bin in their path
04:39:26  <jesusabdullah>ohh, or maybe it DOES but it's AFTER everything else?
04:39:35  <jesusabdullah>We should prooobably make that explicit
04:40:04  <ogd>not sure
04:41:08  <jesusabdullah>¯\(°_o)/¯
04:49:28  <timoxley>jesusabdullah: spawn doesn't automatically inherit env vars, you'll can do something like spawn('browserify', {env: process.env})
04:49:50  <jesusabdullah>timoxley: excellent.
04:50:02  <timoxley>trips me up too
04:51:09  <jesusabdullah>ugh this local company I decided to get ahold of wants me to do RESEARCH on WEBSCALE before visiting their office
04:51:26  <timoxley>hahah
04:51:28  <jesusabdullah>apparently their devs can't wrap their head around javascript being server-side ?
04:51:50  <jesusabdullah>Well it's fair, they're doing game backends so they're mostly concerned with high thoroughput in a way that nodejitsu and i.tv weren't
04:52:50  <timoxley>jesusabdullah: node's been successfully used for game backends, lucasarts was all node.
04:52:52  <timoxley>… if you need ammo
04:52:59  <jesusabdullah>timoxley: nah that's not the issue
04:53:31  <jesusabdullah>The guys are going to want to see that you have some strong server-side chops. They're afraid you only have front-end web and gui experience. You'll also want to prepare plenty of stories that demonstrate you understand the challenges of servicing a large number of concurrent users.
04:53:42  <jesusabdullah>Noobs, that's the exact opposite of me
04:53:54  <timoxley>oh
04:53:58  <jesusabdullah>my problem is that I haven't needed to use dtrace
04:54:14  <jesusabdullah>if I could tell them about a time I needed dtrace they'd shit themselves, but the truth is I haven't
04:54:48  <timoxley>"I needed dtrace this time to impress someone during an interview"
04:55:24  <jesusabdullah>well like, I can't think of a single time I've been like, "this server is too slow I need to go DEEPER"
04:55:34  <jesusabdullah>I've never had to do perf profiling on a node server
04:55:58  <substack>same
04:56:00  <jesusabdullah>thing is, that's why they're interested in node, they're running up against the limits of their java stack and, like, it's game backends
04:56:07  <substack>jesusabdullah: you just tell them, you tell them substack said
04:56:07  <jesusabdullah>which is all message passing
04:56:17  <jesusabdullah>okay uncle substack
04:56:25  * substack<-- never used dtrace
04:56:25  <jesusabdullah>ol' man substack
04:56:34  <substack>you tell them, you tells them I sentcha
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04:56:37  <jesusabdullah>rule 1: Don't do very much.
04:56:46  <jesusabdullah>rule 2: No really, don't do very much.
04:57:34  <jesusabdullah>also, the fuck is this http://www.smartfoxserver.com/docs/1x/
04:57:40  <jesusabdullah>that's what they're using right now
04:57:47  <jesusabdullah>looks like a bunch of bullshit to me
04:58:43  <jesusabdullah>if people are buying this, maybe these guys should resell the leet-ass node system they're talking about building
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04:59:47  <timoxley>jesusabdullah: smartfox was actually pretty nifty
04:59:48  <timoxley>in 2005
05:00:00  <jesusabdullah>timoxley: tell me about smartfox I'm really bad at reading
05:01:51  <jesusabdullah>it LOOKS like it's built-in chat and message passing
05:01:58  <jesusabdullah>with the ability to hook in game logic
05:02:09  <timoxley>jesusabdullah: basically socket.io for flash with a bunch of utils for common game stuff
05:02:14  <timoxley>yep
05:02:15  <jesusabdullah>yeah
05:02:25  <jesusabdullah>Look again. YOUR GAME SERVER IS NOW REDIS
05:02:51  <substack>jesusabdullah: so it sounds like you're the expert here
05:02:55  <substack>and they are pretty full of shit
05:03:01  <substack>and need a good stern talking-to
05:03:04  <jesusabdullah>lulz
05:03:17  <substack>you just go tell them how it is
05:03:20  <substack>and how it's going to e
05:03:22  <substack>*be
05:03:25  <jesusabdullah>Yeah, I'm gonna read half of this to make sure I'm not fucking retarded, and then just show up and kick my normal shit
05:03:34  <jesusabdullah>and if that's not good enough, well, I got other gigs
05:03:41  <substack>and if they know what's good for them, they will give you a briefcase full of money to fix their silly stack
05:03:47  <jesusabdullah>but my guess is their java guys just can't wrap their head around server-side javascript
05:03:57  <jesusabdullah>you can see my quote, "they're scared you only know front-end/gui"
05:04:01  <substack>jesusabdullah: so what you can do I think
05:04:06  <substack>is bust out a command-line
05:04:08  <jesusabdullah>and I'm like, "I couldn't gui my way out of a paper bag"
05:04:10  <substack>and just start shredding
05:04:22  <substack>like mkdir realtimewhatevs
05:04:30  <substack>and npm install shoe ecstatic
05:04:37  <substack>and just go the fuck to town making realtime etc
05:04:43  <jesusabdullah>"the Dimebag Darrell of node.js"
05:05:15  <jesusabdullah>except I wanna be the Jacobim Mugatu of node
05:05:19  <jesusabdullah>I think we had this discussion
05:05:28  <jesusabdullah>"I CREATED THE PIANO WEBSERVER"
05:05:28  <LOUDBOT>PROGRAMMERS ARE STUPID. THE SOONER YOU REALIZE THIS, THE BETTER OFF YOU WILL BE.
05:06:08  <jesusabdullah>oh, I know, I'll tell them about how all our talks about scaling npm
05:06:11  <jesusabdullah>they'll like that
05:08:26  <jesusabdullah>substack: does http://zguide.zeromq.org/page:all#-MQ-in-a-Hundred-Words sound like doing too many fucking things at once to you?
05:08:59  <jesusabdullah>substack: I could be wrong, but like, why do I want tcp-like sockets with automagic fan-out?
05:09:20  <substack>I have no idea.
05:09:57  <substack>maybe because it sounds good?
05:10:01  <jesusabdullah>call me crazy but I feel like that should be a library that sits on top of ye standard tcp socket
05:10:05  <jesusabdullah>WHAT EVER
05:10:06  <LOUDBOT>I MEAN FOR RANDOM ANONYMOUS PEOPLE TO SEND ME FILES
05:10:25  <substack>you can either go with the library without fanout or you can use this library, it's got fanout
05:10:28  <substack>clearly better
05:10:48  <jesusabdullah>if you can call your library "x ON STEROIDS" there might be a problem
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05:17:07  <substack>the library with the most checkmarks on the feature matrix wins
05:17:11  <substack>what's the term for that?
05:24:03  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 0, free: 24]
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05:29:00  <jesusabdullah>uncertain
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06:02:07  <rowbit>substack, pkrumins: Encoders down: 50.57.72.69 (free7)
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06:24:04  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 1, free: 26]
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06:44:45  <Raynos>isaacs: your talk is at nodeconf eu is really good
06:44:52  <Raynos>im watching it a second time and actually listening this time
06:47:42  <substack>isaacs: mind chipping in on https://twitter.com/jrburke/status/410299133186949120
06:48:10  <substack>jrburke has thought for a long time that npm and node would be compatible with AMD
06:48:17  <substack>but they're really fundamentally incompatible
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07:24:03  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 3, free: 23]
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07:40:19  <groundwater>weird... when i query npm from my mac, i get accurate info
07:40:31  <groundwater>when i query it from my ubuntu VM, the versions of modules are out of date
07:40:38  <groundwater>has anyone experienced this before?
07:41:14  <jcrugzz>groundwater: npm cache clean
07:41:24  <Raynos>substack: the idea of non local dependencies is :/
07:41:46  <groundwater>jcrugzz: weird, even curl was returning different data
07:41:54  <groundwater>but now they're both working
07:42:29  <jcrugzz>groundwater: odd
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07:57:28  <groundwater>it's happening again, if i curl https://registry.npmjs.org/bin-nsh
07:57:40  <groundwater>depending which machine i curl from
07:57:50  <groundwater>it either has version 0.1.1 or 0.1.0 as the latest
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08:06:38  <jcrugzz>groundwater: interesting, are they in different locations?
08:06:54  <groundwater>no, they're both on my laptop
08:07:02  <groundwater>and their DNS resovles to the same host
08:07:23  <groundwater>my .npmrc file is empty
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08:09:10  <groundwater>jcrugzz: looks like cache clean didn't completely work
08:09:24  <groundwater>i removed ~/.npm/bin-nsh/.cache.json and it worked
08:09:36  <groundwater>but the curl issue still baffles me
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11:54:41  <insertcoffee>Gnome 3 allows you to write OS extensions in JS & CSS! https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/GnomeShell/Extensions
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11:57:08  <rowbit>substack, pkrumins: These encoders are STILL down: 50.57.72.69(free7)
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14:51:44  <dominictarr>okay: this is what I want.
14:51:48  <dominictarr>a "TERMINAL PHONE"
14:52:16  <dominictarr>it would be a portable computer that you can hold in your hand
14:52:20  * defunctzombie_zzchanged nick to defunctzombie
14:52:23  <dominictarr>and you could make phone calls with ti
14:52:33  <dominictarr>but ALL UI would be ansi based
14:53:13  <dominictarr>and you'd enter text using a chorded keyboard, with 6 buttons one for each finger and two for your thumb.
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14:53:47  <dominictarr>or maybe UNIX PHONE would be better name
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15:18:42  <jesusabdullah>holy shit, node stat calls are 30x slower than native stat calls
15:20:37  <defunctzombie>gozala: do I have publish rights on the events module?
15:22:26  <defunctzombie>gozala: ah it seems I do.. nvm :)
15:24:03  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 2, free: 41]
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15:51:06  <juliangruber>dominictarr: looks like you didn't push modem-stream yet
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16:04:43  <jesusabdullah>modem-stream?
16:04:55  <jesusabdullah>please tell me that does the 56k screechy-screech
16:06:12  <jesusabdullah>"Back in the day I used to get 28 baud, now I'm lucky if I get TWELVE baud!!"
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16:11:05  <juliangruber>jesusabdullah: looks like it defaults to 300 baud :D
16:11:52  <dominictarr>juliangruber, no, it slows down the baud so you can see the ansi stuff doing it's work
16:12:00  <dominictarr>30 chars a second!
16:12:23  <juliangruber>dominictarr: var slow = require('modem-stream')(opts.baud || 300) :P
16:12:36  <dominictarr>baud is bits per second
16:12:50  <juliangruber>yeah that unit was before my computer time began :D
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16:13:11  <dominictarr>not bytes. A higher number is better for sales!
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16:13:18  <juliangruber>^^
16:13:45  <dominictarr>I had a 14400 baud modem when I first got online
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16:21:27  <dominictarr>substack, idea: invent a new internet 3.0 that is entirely terminal based. I feel we have all gone totally wrong with web 2.0 we should start over from the last thing that worked well.
16:22:12  <justinabrahms>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gopher_(protocol)
16:24:04  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 0, free: 51]
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16:27:30  <dominictarr>oh, no there is already a gopher module on npm, but it's some stupid express thing! https://npmjs.org/package/gopher
16:28:02  <justinabrahms>I feel like I need to write a gopher server in go.
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16:39:00  <dominictarr>juliangruber, do it!
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16:39:48  <dominictarr>justinabrahms, although, I'm not sure if this gopher thing isn't too rigid. we need the best parts of the web, like javascript
16:40:01  <dominictarr>but to drop the worst parts, like http and css
16:40:11  <dominictarr>javascript + terminals
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17:11:23  <prettyrobots>Are we talking about a JavaScript shell? I put a lot of thought into something along those lines.
17:11:45  * flobypart
17:12:05  <jesusabdullah>I like http!
17:13:35  <jesusabdullah>prettyrobots: 0.12 is rumoured to have sync spawns ^__^
17:13:46  <jesusabdullah>prettyrobots: which I think could ACTUALLY be PRETTY SWEET
17:14:27  <prettyrobots>Yes. It would make it easier to bomb around with Node.js.
17:14:39  <prettyrobots>To do things that I would still do in bash.
17:14:51  * prettyrobotsloves shell
17:17:35  <Domenic_>why is npm so broken :(
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17:24:03  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 0, free: 143]
17:25:46  <dominictarr>jesusabdullah, http is lame! we want a duplex stream!
17:25:56  <jesusabdullah>whiner.
17:26:01  <dominictarr>you can put any protocol over that if you want, even http
17:26:13  <jesusabdullah>Just send a 100 continue and duplex your req/res, g2g
17:27:24  <dominictarr>jesusabdullah, actually, it's browsers that are the problem here, you can use http full duplex with node
17:27:47  <jesusabdullah>that's what I'm sayin'!
17:27:50  <jesusabdullah>AND curl
17:28:08  <dominictarr>pipelining is also a problem
17:28:13  <dominictarr>multiplexing is better
17:28:17  <jesusabdullah>only snafu is timeouts, you have to throw some null bytes in there
17:28:19  <dominictarr>http2 should be good
17:32:56  <dominictarr>but, ssh is even better
17:33:42  <dominictarr>the internetv3 should definately have ssh keys for all user auth
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17:57:09  <rowbit>substack, pkrumins: These encoders are STILL down: 50.57.72.69(free7)
17:57:12  <defunctzombie>Domenic_: cause that is how it is
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18:08:23  <Raynos>Domenic_: we can just fix npm
18:09:18  <thlorenz>mmalecki: saw you forked prettyjson -- you know that cardinal handles json right? https://github.com/thlorenz/cardinal </shamelessplug>
18:13:42  <thlorenz>mmalecki: ah never mind seems like you want yaml output
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18:24:03  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 0, free: 45]
18:25:31  <jcrugzz>defunctzombie Raynos Domenic_: currently in thailand working on it ;). Definitely let me know what you guys see in regards to brokenness
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18:30:00  <Raynos>jcrugzz: `npm dedup` and git dependencies :D
18:30:51  <jcrugzz>Raynos: not on the client, in regards to the distributed couch part
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18:31:26  <Raynos>oh.
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18:31:41  <Raynos>jcrugzz: just make it 10 times faster :D
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18:57:25  <defunctzombie>jcrugzz: really just gotta stop storing the data in couch
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18:57:41  <defunctzombie>that is the real fix I bet for any sort of good improvements in speed
18:58:39  <jcrugzz>defunctzombie: thats where the cdnifying will come in, the use of couch is actually pretty important due to the inherent open replication protocol
18:58:46  <jcrugzz>people just like to hate on couch :p
18:58:54  <defunctzombie>haha
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18:59:07  <jcrugzz>but i gotta sleep, later all
18:59:08  <defunctzombie>guessing the CDN will sit on top of couch?
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20:47:32  <isaacs>substack: did you ever make that ssl pubkey encrypting thingie?
20:47:47  <isaacs>substack: it so happens that i have a message i'd like to send someone, and i have their pubkey, and it needs to be secure
20:48:06  <ogd>just give me the message, you can trust me
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20:53:05  <st_luke>you can trust me
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20:56:07  <substack>isaacs: got about halfway done
20:56:13  <substack>I can probably finish it in just a bit
20:56:18  <substack>was poking at it last night a little
20:56:39  <substack>isaacs: so one of the things that sucks is node core crypto doesn't expose the RSA/DSA openssl calls
20:56:49  <substack>but this module does, for rsa at least: http://npmjs.org/package/ursa
20:57:07  <substack>and there is an otr module with some pure JS DSA functionality but it doesn't have encrypt/decrypt
20:57:17  <tim_smart>isaacs: Use pgp email?
20:58:37  <substack>tim_smart: nobody has gpg/pgp keys
20:58:55  <substack>but github is a huge public key signing authority, accidentally
20:59:35  <substack>because https://github.com/Tim-Smart.keys
21:00:24  <tim_smart>substack: I sign all my e-mails these days
21:00:38  <tim_smart>MacGPG2 is really good
21:00:52  <tim_smart>But I use mutt day-to-day
21:01:35  <tim_smart>But that github trick is pretty cool...
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21:23:16  <thlorenz>defunctzombie: think of the t as a better assert
21:23:30  <defunctzombie>thlorenz: but it isn't a better assert
21:23:32  <thlorenz>since instead it throwing an error it just collects results
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21:23:43  <defunctzombie>thlorenz: calling it assert is a good thing tho
21:23:49  <defunctzombie>thlorenz: so?
21:23:52  <thlorenz>so the asserts below can still run and you get more info when something fails
21:24:04  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 3, free: 16]
21:24:09  <thlorenz>i.e. first one failed, but the next two are ok ... hm
21:24:11  <defunctzombie>thlorenz: I get all the same info via assert module using mocha too
21:24:21  <defunctzombie>I actually prefer bail on first error
21:24:23  <thlorenz>yeah, but then you need to only have one assert/test
21:24:46  <thlorenz>not me - actually the hard core TDD ppl suggest to only have one assert/test
21:24:58  <defunctzombie>yea... good luck
21:25:03  <thlorenz>for that reason, but w/ tap I get the best of both worlds
21:25:23  <defunctzombie>I like the format of tape tests
21:25:23  <thlorenz>also async testing is sooo much better via the t.plan(x) feature
21:25:29  <defunctzombie>but the takeover of my stdout
21:25:31  <defunctzombie>no thank you
21:25:33  <thlorenz>tape/tap pretty much same thing
21:25:40  <defunctzombie>that is not for tape to decide
21:26:09  <thlorenz>you can write another runner you know ;)
21:26:21  <thlorenz>one that emits events (actually tap already does that)
21:26:25  <defunctzombie>sure, but I think it all outputs to stdout all the time
21:26:56  <thlorenz>not sure about that, but I bet isaacs and substack would happily merge something that turns that off via a flag
21:27:05  <defunctzombie>the probably wouldn't
21:27:15  <thlorenz>I never had the need since I can consume the tap output with lots of tools
21:27:18  <defunctzombie>they think the tap output format was sent to us from the gods ;)
21:27:29  <defunctzombie>thlorenz: you know what I can't consume the tap output with?
21:27:32  <defunctzombie>thlorenz: my own eyes
21:27:35  <thlorenz>yep the gods on per island
21:27:47  <defunctzombie>when I insert some print statements or whatnot
21:27:48  <thlorenz>defunctzombie: this conversation is over :)
21:27:55  <defunctzombie>yep
21:31:41  <spion>node test/test.js | tap-pessimist #?
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21:58:51  <Raynos>tap-pessimist ??
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22:05:27  <jesusabdullah>Raynos: what is istanbul
22:05:33  <jesusabdullah>and why are you so pessimistic
22:06:39  <jesusabdullah>Sometimes I think that refactoring https://github.com/jesusabdullah/node-pedant to be more general (that is, Actually Useful) is a good idea...then I remember how much I hate linters.
22:08:56  <Raynos>jesusabdullah: istanbul is code coverage ( https://github.com/Raynos/ngen/blob/master/templates/raynos/content/package.json#L30 )
22:10:04  <jesusabdullah>Raynos: That's not constantinople!
22:13:15  <jesusabdullah>substack yahoo asked me about data structures *pout*
22:13:40  <jesusabdullah>data structures are my weakest of points
22:13:46  <jesusabdullah>I did okay though :)
22:14:09  <Domenic_>yeah i figure if i'm ever gonna do a round of interviews at the big guys gonna have to spend a week reading cs books
22:15:44  <jesusabdullah>It wasn't actually so bad, it just took a bit of prodding and head scratching
22:15:58  <jesusabdullah>the problem was basically, "what do you do if a hash table is too slow"
22:16:05  <jesusabdullah>and the answer was, "nested hash tables"
22:16:23  <jesusabdullah>yo dawg I herd u liek has tables so we hashed your hash table so you can do hash lookups on your hash lookups
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22:20:11  <Raynos>Domenic_: I completely screwed up my google interview by not preparing that stuff.
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22:24:04  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 0, free: 53]
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22:41:36  <ogd>groundwater: what poweres the nodeos signup email form?
22:41:45  <groundwater>ogd: mailchimp
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22:52:57  <jesusabdullah>uh-oh, nod-eos!
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22:59:18  <substack>jesusabdullah: that sounds like a bullshit trivia kind of a gotcha question
22:59:47  <substack>Raynos: if you have to prepare for an interview that interview sounds pretty bullshit
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23:12:29  <robertkowalski>st_luke timoxley: good point regarding the trimming
23:13:11  <st_luke>substack: agreed
23:13:22  <robertkowalski>maybe the solution is a config setting where you can switch of trimming and enable linewraps?
23:13:40  <robertkowalski>how do we proceed further with https://github.com/isaacs/npm/pull/2328 ?
23:13:50  <timoxley>robertkowalski: sure, I'll have a shot at that today
23:13:51  <st_luke>interviews are a reminder that having a job is generally terrible
23:13:58  <substack>st_luke: I think it's mostly because people use interviews as a vehicle for feeling clever and smart because they know the special puzzle answer
23:14:11  <jesusabdullah>substack: Yeah, I mean, the way I handle it is by pretending that as long as I can show Critical Thinking Skills I'm doing okay
23:14:23  <st_luke>I had an interview once where I was given a programming puzzle to solve
23:14:32  <st_luke>the person pretty obviously found it on google
23:14:48  <st_luke>and anyway, I'm not good at puzzles, and I'm even worse at them when someone is sitting there staring at me
23:14:49  <substack>it's all hierarchical power dynamics and mind games, even if the people running it aren't realizing what they're doing
23:14:49  <jesusabdullah>I had an interview once where I was given a puzzle specified in a word document, and I needed to send it over email in a zipball
23:15:02  <jesusabdullah>and their email server decided that zipball === virus
23:15:07  <ogd>timoxley: can the search result formatter get turned into a standalone module? i'd like to use it in browser e.g. http://requirebin.com/embed?gist=5953535&q=git
23:15:11  <st_luke>the architect guy at the company ended up telling the guy who interviewed me that giving a puzzle was a terrible idea
23:15:29  <jesusabdullah>so there was like 3 weeks where it was like, "did you send us the file?" "yeah totally" "cuz I don't see it" "I'll do it again"
23:15:45  <st_luke>still got the job but it was an indicator of what the job was going to be like
23:16:45  <jesusabdullah>uhuh
23:17:07  <jesusabdullah>Yeah my take-home was, "wow, yahoo sure does care about optimization"
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23:17:58  <st_luke>tbh I had no idea you were going to be given something like that
23:18:45  <substack>most companies probably have no idea how pathological they are
23:18:46  <st_luke>my interview process was hanging out with people chatting about more higher level stuff, no code was written
23:20:10  <st_luke>jesusabdullah: thanks for saying something though
23:24:03  <rowbit>Daily usage stats: [developer: 23, free: 1051]
23:24:03  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 0, free: 23]
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23:39:17  <Raynos>substack: depends on how much you want the job
23:39:54  <Raynos>substack: i dont really prepare but i acknowledge that a) interviewing is hard and b) maybe i should adopt myself to the company
23:40:57  <robertkowalski>timoxley: great! just ping me if you need help. i think the config must get into the module npm-conf
23:41:25  <robertkowalski>npmconf, without the "-"
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23:57:10  <rowbit>substack, pkrumins: These encoders are STILL down: 50.57.72.69(free7)
23:58:12  <robertkowalski>alot of issues from windows users on npm in the last weeks
23:58:25  <robertkowalski>seems node is getting more popular there