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00:09:35  <defunctzombie>where is substack when you need him?
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00:36:17  <defunctzombie>thlorenz: I think the config stuff is gonna all change for zuul
00:36:33  <thlorenz>how?
00:36:43  <defunctzombie>thlorenz: I am gonna turn zuul into a cloud runner... the local server option will stay tho via --local
00:36:47  <defunctzombie>some things will be simpler
00:36:54  <defunctzombie>like making a custom server
00:37:07  <defunctzombie>and custom browserify I will support via a config option still
00:37:17  <defunctzombie>there will be a .zuul.yml file
00:37:20  <thlorenz>well, as long as you do a minor bump for that and things stay functions it'll be ok
00:37:24  <defunctzombie>yes
00:37:28  <thlorenz>.yml ???? noooooooo
00:37:29  <defunctzombie>it will be a major bump probably
00:37:42  <defunctzombie>thlorenz: the yml file will define what browsers to test under saucelabs
00:37:46  <defunctzombie>it is really cool
00:37:59  <thlorenz>just do a .zuulrc file that can have json
00:38:09  <defunctzombie>I dunno
00:38:13  <defunctzombie>json seems more verbose for this
00:38:20  <thlorenz>ah, so it's like travis kinda, well we'll live
00:38:21  <defunctzombie>I will think about it :)
00:38:25  <defunctzombie>yea
00:38:31  <defunctzombie>it will actually work with travis
00:38:36  <defunctzombie>so you can have travis run zuul
00:38:41  <defunctzombie>and it will run tests in sauce
00:38:49  <defunctzombie>it is all almost working.. quite awesome
00:38:57  <defunctzombie>cause you can also test in various browsers without pushing
00:39:01  <thlorenz>cool, can't wait to see it, just please make sure to not take away configurability
00:39:12  <defunctzombie>:)
00:39:22  <thlorenz>i.e. functions need to stay functions
00:39:27  <defunctzombie>standalone servers got better
00:39:32  <defunctzombie>phantomjs stuff is gone
00:39:46  <defunctzombie>you can run mocha-phantomjs manually or open a browser on the URL zuul gives you
00:39:52  <defunctzombie>so that feature remains
00:39:55  <thlorenz>cool
00:40:13  <thlorenz>cause some servers we deploy to aren't under our full control ;)
00:40:32  <thlorenz>so everything needed to run the tests headlessly needs to be npm installable
00:40:37  <defunctzombie>yea
00:43:01  <Domenic_>https://github.com/whatwg/streams#requirements is underway, pull requests or suggestions welcome. lots more to do certainly
00:43:16  <Domenic_>plan is to outline all the things a streaming API needs to handle so that we can show exactly how we solve them and the W3C proposal does not
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01:50:11  <Raynos>substack, maxogden, creationix: What are you guys doing for node knockout ?
01:51:04  <dominictarr_>Raynos, substack and I will be at jing.js
01:51:07  <dominictarr_>http://zachbruggeman.me/dogescript/
01:51:12  <Raynos>Ah
01:51:13  <dominictarr_>^that
01:51:38  <Raynos>because i have an idea for node knockout that I need to recruit people for :D
01:51:43  <dominictarr_>needs systax highlighting ... and comic sans mono
01:51:48  <Raynos>I want to build a step by step GUI wizard for authoring npm modules
01:51:58  <dominictarr_>Raynos, hahahaha
01:52:07  <Raynos>its going to be amazing
01:52:10  <dominictarr_>that is great
01:52:14  <Raynos>and mainly focused on browser modules
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01:52:29  <Raynos>so all the bower guys can use the wizard in either "fast" mode or "explain in detail wtf it is doing" mode
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01:52:35  <dominictarr_>can it please look like windows 3.11
01:52:39  <dominictarr_>?
01:52:47  <Raynos>No, its going to look nice ._.
01:52:47  <Raynos>because I want to win.
01:53:28  <dominictarr_>will it also install deps?
01:53:41  <Raynos>I want to use it myself instead of https://github.com/Raynos/dotfiles/blob/master/.functions#L17
01:53:42  <rowbit>substack, pkrumins: These encoders are STILL down: 50.57.226.209(free4)
01:54:04  <Raynos>it will do all the features that are useful
01:55:30  <Raynos>dominictarr_: like requirebin but you can login with github, press a publish button and BAM, testling, travis, github, repo file noise generated, 0.1.0 published.
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02:26:16  <dominictarr_>Raynos, can you make it 1.0.0
02:26:32  <Raynos>dominictarr: might be a good idea to default to 1.0.0
02:26:45  <Raynos>teaches new guys immediately that v1.0 is not special and they should comply with semver
02:27:41  <Raynos>I see you recently started everything at v1 for new stuff
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02:39:45  <Raynos>http://www.haskell.org/hoogle/?hoogle=zipWith
02:39:53  <Raynos>^ we need a search engine like that for npm
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02:54:23  <defunctzombie>thlorenz: https://travis-ci.org/defunctzombie/domify-zuul
02:54:31  <defunctzombie>https://github.com/defunctzombie/domify-zuul
02:54:37  <defunctzombie>and the #cloud branch in the zuul repo
02:54:46  <defunctzombie>and finally
02:54:57  <defunctzombie>https://saucelabs.com/u/shtylman
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02:56:09  <defunctzombie>thlorenz: you can run zuul in two ways now
02:56:23  <defunctzombie>thlorenz: using --local [port] (which is similar to --server [port] from before)
02:56:36  <defunctzombie>or if you run it directly, it will look for .zuul.yml in the cwd
02:56:45  <defunctzombie>https://github.com/defunctzombie/domify-zuul/blob/master/.zuul.yml
02:57:03  <thlorenz>wow, nice!
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02:57:29  <thlorenz>these browser tests run on a non-travis server?
02:57:47  <defunctzombie>thlorenz: yea
02:57:54  <defunctzombie>thlorenz: travis kicks off the zuul process
02:58:00  <defunctzombie>so you can use a travis badge too
02:58:08  <defunctzombie>(that part I am still fixing)
02:58:15  <defunctzombie>and zuul talks to sauce
02:58:19  <defunctzombie>sets up all the tunnels, etc
02:58:19  <thlorenz>ah, ok and then travis gets feedback from saucelabs?
02:58:24  <defunctzombie>zuul does
02:58:25  <thlorenz>ah, ok, makes sense
02:58:32  <defunctzombie>and then will exit on success or failure
02:58:35  <defunctzombie>that is all travis knows
02:58:52  <defunctzombie>and you can configure browsers using that yml file
02:58:57  <thlorenz>now it'd be nice to decouple zuul from mocha somehow, so I could use any testrunner I like
02:59:10  <defunctzombie>thlorenz: yea
02:59:12  <thlorenz>but that maybe hard
02:59:22  <defunctzombie>thlorenz: not too too hard actually depending on the runner
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02:59:36  <defunctzombie>the zuul parts are more split out now actually so it wouldn't be terrible to do
02:59:59  <thlorenz>cool, and what about badges ala testling ?
03:00:09  <defunctzombie>whatever saucelabs provides
03:00:11  <defunctzombie>they have some
03:00:17  <defunctzombie>saucelabs is kinda annoying sometimes
03:00:22  <defunctzombie>but it does run the tests :)
03:00:30  <thlorenz>saucelabs is free?
03:00:34  <defunctzombie>and you can use zuul to hit saucelabs without pushing
03:00:36  <defunctzombie>yea for OSS
03:00:41  <thlorenz>cool
03:00:49  <defunctzombie>https://saucelabs.com/opensauce
03:01:05  <thlorenz>so I guess zuul+saucelabs is an alternative to tesling now
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03:01:17  <thlorenz>good to have competition :)
03:01:23  <defunctzombie>heh
03:01:32  <defunctzombie>I needed something to run tests before pushing code
03:02:04  <thlorenz>oh and testling locally didn't work out? that's what I always do
03:02:10  <defunctzombie>sauce is more annoying to use in many ways
03:02:21  <defunctzombie>not for IE and stuff
03:02:30  <defunctzombie>I use local testing to get the tests written
03:02:41  <defunctzombie>but then still want to be able to run against those browsers before committing code
03:03:01  <thlorenz>ah got it - that makes sense, I just kept pushing til it worked :P
03:03:10  <defunctzombie>yea.. that isn't gonna fly with me
03:03:20  <thlorenz>but at times testling.ci got so damn slow :(
03:03:44  <thlorenz>so nice to have this -- nice work, will have to give it a try soon
03:05:39  <thlorenz>defunctzombie: did you see this? https://twitter.com/thlorenz/status/397167274509238272
03:05:55  <thlorenz>I mean how can anyone take'em seriously when they write stuff like that?
03:06:03  <defunctzombie>wow
03:06:08  <defunctzombie>that is impressive
03:06:12  <defunctzombie>"high-horsepower technologists"
03:06:15  <defunctzombie>not even a human
03:06:51  <thlorenz>:) it's actually by a pretty good company I think, must be that just the recruiters are total idiots
03:07:10  <thlorenz>"to reverse-engineer the algorithm behind the global economy" -- what does that even mean ?
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03:09:26  <Raynos>thlorenz: well take a look at the global economy. Find out the algorithm for it
03:09:35  <Raynos>I mean take it a step up
03:09:44  <Raynos>"to reverse-engineer the theory of everything behind the universe"
03:09:53  <Raynos>thlorenz: its clearly a research position
03:10:24  <thlorenz>Raynos: actually you are right on the money with the last statement
03:10:57  <thlorenz>I just don't know who they are trying to impress with this hot-shot language -- hotshots maybe?
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03:11:55  <Raynos>noobs ?
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03:12:02  <Raynos>people that suffer from dunning kruger ?
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03:12:16  <Raynos>people who havnt been burned by lying startups before
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03:12:26  <Raynos>naive people / people easy to manipulate
03:12:29  <thlorenz>actually that's the funny part - this is not a startup
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03:12:56  <thlorenz>if it wasn't requireing me to install the JVM on my machine I'd maybe apply ;)
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04:19:38  <Domenic_>k done with requirements document. take a look guys. https://github.com/whatwg/streams/tree/master#requirements
04:31:01  <Raynos>+1 the requirements
04:31:04  <Raynos>they are pretty broad
04:43:29  <Domenic_>really helps me understand why node streams have all the things they do
04:48:17  <Raynos>they have ALL THE THINGS
05:00:42  <rowbit>substack, pkrumins: These encoders are STILL down: 50.57.103.135(free2)
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05:27:20  <defunctzombie>do we have a cross platform way to get the "home dir" ?
05:27:22  <defunctzombie>Domenic_:
05:27:24  <defunctzombie>^
05:27:59  <Domenic_>defunctzombie: https://npmjs.org/package/osenv .home
05:28:34  <defunctzombie>cool
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06:16:00  <dominictarr_>substack, hey, when do you get to china?
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11:00:43  <rowbit>substack, pkrumins: These encoders are STILL down: 50.57.103.135(free2)
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17:00:44  <rowbit>substack, pkrumins: These encoders are STILL down: 50.57.103.135(free2)
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17:16:45  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 0, free: 54]
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17:57:58  <ogd>isaacs: PING
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17:59:55  <ogd>shama: noob question: with nodewebkit can i create a distributable app?
18:00:10  <shama>ogd: yep!
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18:00:28  <shama>ogd: https://github.com/rogerwang/node-webkit/wiki/How-to-package-and-distribute-your-apps
18:00:43  <shama>its not very automated atm though
18:01:06  <shama>there is a grunt way to do it but it could get much better
18:01:17  <ogd>shama: ah cool thanks
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18:16:45  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 1, free: 237]
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18:34:05  <hij1nx>anyone having really really slow npm installs lately? https://gist.github.com/hij1nx/62d37cb5f3838657bcb1
18:34:19  <hij1nx>seems kind of random
18:34:27  <thlorenz>same here
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18:34:57  <thlorenz>also the site seems to be dead: https://npmjs.org/
18:36:06  <st_luke>yeah its having issues
18:36:16  <st_luke>they're working on it
18:36:28  <thlorenz>thanks st_luke, good to konw
18:37:52  <hij1nx>they as in the nodejitsu?
18:38:10  <st_luke>they as in izs and jhs
18:38:36  <hij1nx>st_luke: ah. that's nice.
18:39:03  <st_luke>yeah what is nodejitsu gonna do, call maciej?
18:39:23  <hij1nx>lol. that's not nice. :)
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18:43:11  <st_luke>"is there an eta?"
18:43:13  <st_luke>assholes
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18:43:28  <defunctzombie>who said that?
18:43:55  <defunctzombie>is there an ETA... wtf.. yea.. there will be an ETA when you start paying for it
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18:46:55  <mikolalysenko>noooo npm is down :(
18:47:29  <defunctzombie>oh jesus...save us all!!
18:49:12  <st_luke>lol
18:52:52  <mikolalysenko>not trying to be snide or anything, but why is bootstrap popular?
18:53:27  <mikolalysenko>I can't actually understand what problem it solves from staring at the documentation, but people must like it because it has >60k stars on github...
18:54:27  <mikolalysenko>I guess it is just a bunch of random ui widgets if I understand correctly?
18:54:41  <Maciek416>mikolalysenko: it saves a lot of people a lot of work
18:55:26  <Maciek416>when styling your customer dashboard "just so" is literally one one thousandth of your team's concerns but you need it to look professional... bootstrap
18:56:00  <mikolalysenko>so it is like a default css sheet that looks nice?
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18:56:23  <Maciek416>yeah
18:56:30  <mikolalysenko>ah, got it
18:56:35  <mikolalysenko>that makes a lot of sense
18:57:09  <Maciek416>I think it appeals most to teams that are building a lot of forms and panels and dashboards and menus but has no desire to style and cross-browserfy that stuff
18:57:20  <Maciek416>s/has/have
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18:57:40  <thlorenz>mikolalysenko: also look into gumby
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18:57:59  <thlorenz>bootstrap is not the only kid in town anymore for column layouts ;)
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18:59:53  <mikolalysenko>it makes sense to me, though I do wish there was a more modular way to approach these problems
19:00:23  <mikolalysenko>I have yet to delve very deeply though into css land, so maybe something is already known
19:01:28  <mikolalysenko>I forget the flag to make npm use the local cache when installing...
19:01:37  <thlorenz>mikolalysenko: if you want more modular css look into: https://github.com/defunctzombie/npm-css or for sass: https://github.com/thlorenz/sass-resolve
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19:03:30  <chapel>is anyone else having npm problems?
19:03:35  <Maciek416>yes
19:03:38  <Maciek416>bigtime
19:03:43  <chapel>:(
19:03:58  <guybrush>https://twitter.com/npmjs/status/397407792685776896
19:04:31  <mikolalysenko>can npm-css run as a browserify transform somehow?
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19:07:52  <mikolalysenko>thlorenz: also sass-resolve is very interesting
19:08:07  <mikolalysenko>I don't know much about sass though, or what it specifically improves over css
19:08:15  <st_luke>just install packages from your cache if you have them there
19:08:29  <mikolalysenko>though if it is modular, then I would consider at least that much to be a substantial advance
19:09:29  <mikolalysenko>also it looks like sass has a ruby dependency, which is kind of :(
19:10:31  <defunctzombie>"still experiencing issues with the registry. is there a timeline for a fix?"
19:10:32  <defunctzombie>hahaha
19:14:12  <alessioalex>defunctzombie: http://nodejs.org.au/post/11
19:14:17  <alessioalex>go Aussies
19:14:32  <defunctzombie>damn aussies!
19:14:45  <alessioalex>you just have to remove the auth logic from .npmrc (if you have the auth session)
19:14:49  <alessioalex>:P
19:15:05  <defunctzombie>I like the node logo
19:15:06  <defunctzombie>haha
19:16:45  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 0, free: 68]
19:20:23  <defunctzombie>just tried to install an npm module but realized npm is down #developerproblems
19:21:04  <defunctzombie>\o/ for github based npm installs
19:21:18  <alessioalex>\o/ for the Australian NPM replica
19:21:19  <alessioalex>:D
19:23:09  <st_luke>good thing people aren't deploying from production npm, right?
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19:26:09  <defunctzombie>hahaha
19:27:18  <jlord>isaacs: i am sorry that i broke npm by having two accounts and trying to log into both
19:28:33  <st_luke>lol
19:28:43  <mikolalysenko>npm is back up?
19:28:52  <mikolalysenko>publishing is slow though
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19:32:00  <defunctzombie>clearly we need to start removing random modules from npm... Math.rand() and your module gets removed
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19:38:40  <isaacs>jlord: OMG IT WAS YOU
19:38:48  <isaacs>mikolalysenko: it's flopping around a lot
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19:42:08  <ogd>i'd recommend throwing it back in the river
19:43:50  <thlorenz>mikolalysenko: wrt to sass-resolve -- we'll be using it to allow us to compose our app from lots of smaller feature apps
19:44:14  <thlorenz>also I'm working on making it inline the source maps including content, like I did in browserify
19:44:45  <thlorenz>scss generates separate .map file, but then you have to serve that and all the original ones
19:44:55  <ogd>thlorenz: why is your thing sass specific and not just css
19:44:56  <thlorenz>once it's inlinded, you don't have to
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19:45:47  <thlorenz>ogd: cause you have to add .scss extension when resolving things with resolve
19:46:00  <thlorenz>also the main func actually calls `scss` for you
19:46:21  <thlorenz>but you are right, a more general module could be extracted from this probably
19:47:06  <ogd>i'd like more univeral widget component modules to play with
19:47:31  <thlorenz>well it uses `resolve` under the hood which is really universal
19:47:40  <mikolalysenko>isaacs: yeah, I can kind of get through every now and then. a bit inconvenient, but I can still work
19:48:00  <thlorenz>and sass resolve basically just is a specific case using that generic module (not too much code either)
19:48:02  <jlord>isaacs: I know it was. I realized I had jlord and jllord with same email and password and I'm trying to reconsile it but in doing so I've broken npm :(
19:48:15  <rowbit>substack, pkrumins: Encoders down: 50.57.103.135 (free2)
19:49:02  <jlord>Also, even when I haven't touched any GitHub.com files, I think it was me everytime it goes down
19:49:02  <thlorenz>mikolalysenko: there is libsass and a node binding for it
19:49:25  <thlorenz>so once that supports source maps sass-resolve will use that and thus remove the ruby dependency
19:50:02  <isaacs>jlord: for the record, that had absolutely zero effect.
19:50:18  <isaacs>jlord: you definitely did not break npm, and i was joking above :)
19:50:50  <jlord>isaacs: I know :) But the timing made me feel like I generated bad karma
19:51:06  <isaacs>jlord: i have many accounts with the same email address. http://registry.npmjs.org/-/user-by-email/i@izs.me
19:51:07  <defunctzombie>favorite markdown editor?
19:51:11  <defunctzombie>anyone got recommendations?
19:51:11  <isaacs>defunctzombie: vim
19:51:18  <defunctzombie>preview?
19:51:30  <isaacs>defunctzombie: or, nvalt is prety nice too
19:51:35  <isaacs>hold ctrl key to preview
19:51:48  <isaacs>i usually nvalt when i'm in strict-input mode, and vim for editing and tweaking
19:52:09  <defunctzombie>gotcha
19:52:12  <defunctzombie>will check out nvalt
19:52:17  <isaacs>since nvalt is set up to use a folder of text files, and they both handle background edits nicely, it's a good pair, actually
19:52:38  <thlorenz>defunctzombie: I did this for in the browser editing: http://thlorenz.github.io/browserify-markdown-editor/
19:52:44  <defunctzombie>does it support github markdown style?
19:52:46  <thlorenz>it's just a demo, but actually works
19:52:57  <defunctzombie>thlorenz: that is nice
19:53:00  <thlorenz>uses marked under the hood, so I think yes
19:53:03  <thlorenz>thanks :)
19:53:05  <defunctzombie>thlorenz: you should make that a packaged app
19:53:07  <defunctzombie>in chrome
19:53:09  <defunctzombie>so I can open local files
19:53:18  <defunctzombie>then it would be even more nice
19:53:29  <thlorenz>ah, never done a chrome app -- I guess this could be a good first one
19:53:40  <defunctzombie>yea
19:53:51  <defunctzombie>it is actually pretty awesome with browserify and such
19:53:56  <defunctzombie>cause you just basically port it all over
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19:54:22  <thlorenz>ah, nice - well once I'm done writing all my Makefiles I'll have a go on it ;)
19:54:31  <thlorenz>s/on/at
19:54:44  <defunctzombie>:)
19:55:24  <spion>so... any markdown editors with dual-view that intelligently scroll both sides (can handle images)?
19:55:43  <tmcw>spion: mou does
19:56:09  <spion>oops, forgot web-based
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20:03:16  <guybrush>with levelup how do i increment the value of a key atomically?
20:04:18  <soldair>something like this https://github.com/mikeal/level-mutex
20:05:01  <guybrush>like db.batch().get('nextKey',function(d){nextKey = d}).put('nextKey',nextKey++) // i know this will not work :p
20:07:15  <soldair>guybrush: you can make sure you only allow one concurrent write to "nextKey" to make auto increments
20:07:35  <guybrush>oh ok
20:07:50  <guybrush>i understand what you mean but dont know how to do that
20:07:58  <guybrush>is there some api for that?
20:08:22  <soldair>guybrush: perhaps i have time for a gist. sec
20:08:39  <guybrush>oh thx, no hurry!
20:09:14  <guybrush>my first thought would be some kind of lock-key
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20:09:32  <guybrush>in combination with batch
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20:10:42  <guybrush>and when its locked just delay the operation or maybe queue it somehow
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20:13:28  <defunctzombie>thlorenz: writing a new readme for zuul
20:13:40  <defunctzombie>thlorenz: what would be a simple client side js example to test
20:13:48  <defunctzombie>something like 10 lines long or trivial
20:13:51  <defunctzombie>what comes to mind?
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20:16:45  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [free: 53]
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20:22:24  <alessioalex>guybrush: you can also look at https://github.com/dominictarr/level-update
20:22:43  <alessioalex>and https://github.com/dominictarr/lock
20:23:00  <guybrush>oh sweet
20:23:04  <guybrush>thanks
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20:35:11  <thlorenz>defunctzombie: not sure, do you wanna show use of the zuul-config or just the super basic features?
20:35:28  <defunctzombie>thlorenz: kinda everything.. I am working on a readme right now
20:35:32  <defunctzombie>will push it up soon so you can see
20:35:36  <defunctzombie>it is more of a walkthrough
20:35:41  <thlorenz>ok, cool, I'll have a look
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20:42:17  <defunctzombie>thlorenz: I kinda feel like I should make this wiki pages instead.. this is getting verbose
20:43:11  <defunctzombie>https://github.com/defunctzombie/zuul/tree/cloud
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20:52:40  <Domenic_>zuuuuul <3
20:53:16  <defunctzombie>Domenic_: zuul is even more amazing now
20:53:37  <defunctzombie>thlorenz: I still need to document/write how custom servers are done
20:53:44  <defunctzombie>thlorenz: it is very similar to testling custom servers
20:53:54  <defunctzombie>thlorenz: so you don't even have to use express or whatever if you don't want
20:53:59  <defunctzombie>it is a totally separate process
20:54:04  <thlorenz>that'd be an interesting read actually :)
20:54:37  <defunctzombie>so in .zuul.yml you just do "server: /path/to/test/support/server.js"
20:54:40  <defunctzombie>and that's it
20:54:43  <thlorenz>you should also consider making this more of a blog post and linking your readme to it, since it sounds it'd be a lengthy tuturial
20:54:48  <thlorenz>that's nice
20:54:51  <defunctzombie>you get process.env.ZUUL_PORT
20:54:57  <defunctzombie>yea
20:55:02  <defunctzombie>I want to write a blogpost about it
20:55:25  <thlorenz>yeah I'm always torn when it comes to command line args vs. env vars
20:55:32  <thlorenz>env vars can be easier abused
20:55:43  <defunctzombie>yea.. I dunno
20:55:46  <thlorenz>i.e. someone sets it somewhere and it runs and the next guy is clueless
20:55:54  <defunctzombie>maybe since yo uhave to write a custom script we can do command line args
20:56:02  <defunctzombie>I could actually do something like the following:
20:56:21  <thlorenz>well you can always do "X=1 Y=2 zuul ..."
20:56:21  <defunctzombie>server: /path/to/support/server.js {{port}}
20:56:40  <defunctzombie>this env var is the one zuul provides to you
20:56:48  <defunctzombie>cause it needs to know what port your server will run on
20:56:58  <thlorenz>like it does now
20:57:11  <thlorenz>except it starts the server for you ;)
20:57:14  <defunctzombie>right
20:57:18  <defunctzombie>in this case it doesn't
20:57:24  <defunctzombie>so it has to give you the port
20:57:24  <thlorenz>ah, makes sense
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21:13:34  <defunctzombie>st_luke: that meta only npmjs db is starting to look better and better hahaha
21:13:52  <st_luke>yea
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21:16:45  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 17, free: 138]
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21:46:30  <Raynos>oh.
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21:52:05  <Raynos>creationix: check out https://github.com/Raynos/npm-the-wizard#npm-the-wizard
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22:00:15  <rowbit>substack, pkrumins: Encoders down: 50.57.103.135 (free2)
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22:16:45  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 0, free: 52]
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22:47:02  <creationix>Raynos, ok, new computer, new xchat
22:47:06  <creationix>I'm on irc again
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23:01:58  <creationix>isaacs, what do you think about extending npm's commit-ish to allow for semver matching on tags?
23:02:25  <defunctzombie>NO
23:02:26  <creationix>something like user@host/project/blah.git#~0.3.2
23:02:39  <defunctzombie>just use the specific version
23:02:57  <creationix>defunctzombie, why, do you not use semver for npm packages either?
23:03:12  <creationix>nto having semver leads to maintenance nightmare
23:03:17  <defunctzombie>creationix: because you get non deterministic installs
23:03:40  <creationix>right, I'm aware of the tradeofs of semvar vs static versions
23:03:49  <creationix>but why should npm modules get semver and git modules not
23:03:57  <defunctzombie>I don't think npm modules should
23:04:00  <defunctzombie>but that ship has sailed :)
23:04:18  <creationix>when you maintain as many modules as I tend to, you learn to appreciate semver
23:04:30  <creationix>otherwise I would spend a significant percentage of my time updating versions everywhere
23:04:38  <creationix>np has shrinkwrap for deployment
23:04:40  <creationix>*npm
23:04:54  <defunctzombie>creationix: this is because you have NIH the majority of your modules
23:05:04  <defunctzombie>and know what changes you are making and what might break where
23:05:18  <defunctzombie>it also means that one day I might install your module and a new thing might be broken
23:05:20  <Raynos>creationix: hi! you should read https://github.com/Raynos/npm-the-wizard
23:05:21  <creationix>this is true, but regardless of why, I prefer semver
23:05:24  <defunctzombie>even tho I didn't change the version
23:05:39  <jcrugzz>yea i appreciate semver but when other module authors do not follow semver, it makes me sad
23:05:40  * thlorenz_quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
23:05:53  * Maciek416quit (Remote host closed the connection)
23:05:55  <defunctzombie>semver is only for evaluating if you should update a module dep
23:05:56  <creationix>When I add a breaking API, I bump the major version
23:05:56  <Raynos>creationix: Also conversations are happening in issues.
23:06:02  <defunctzombie>it should not be treated as an auto update feature
23:06:09  <Raynos>creationix: we'll get the team together on IRC once irccloud comes back up >_<
23:06:16  <defunctzombie>Raynos: that link does not work
23:06:25  * Maciek416joined
23:06:47  <defunctzombie>creationix: if you are spending all your time updating deps, maybe write a script
23:06:49  <Raynos>defunctzombie: its not NIH
23:06:56  * jxsonjoined
23:07:12  <creationix>Raynos, I have NIH because I can't handle the complexity of others people code generally
23:07:16  <creationix>that's a weakness of mine
23:07:22  <defunctzombie>or consider why all your deps are changing so much :)
23:07:36  <defunctzombie>creationix: I feel you on that
23:07:41  <Raynos>its because we write a framework in a small module way
23:07:59  <creationix>exactly. the tiny module lifestyle needs semver
23:08:05  <defunctzombie>Raynos: when you use a large percentage of your modules, you get a different view than someone who just relies on your modules but did not write them
23:08:13  <creationix>js-git would be about 100 modules if I went substack small with my modules
23:08:27  <defunctzombie>semver !== auto updating
23:08:40  <defunctzombie>the other danger is that tests do not run
23:08:51  <defunctzombie>the benefit of updating pinned deps is that it causes a new commit
23:08:54  <Raynos>lets say you were to author a webrtc framework
23:08:55  <defunctzombie>and is very clear the intent
23:08:56  <Raynos>thats 20 modules
23:09:01  <defunctzombie>and then you get tests to run again
23:09:06  <Raynos>i need to be able to iterate and land patches
23:09:08  <defunctzombie>and have a commit to point to if things break
23:09:17  <Raynos>without bumping version numbers on 10 modules every time i change one
23:09:31  <defunctzombie>I dunno how to explain this to people well, you either get it or you don't
23:09:37  <Raynos>i want to float my own patches
23:09:39  <creationix>defunctzombie, but when does it break for you
23:09:40  <defunctzombie>Raynos: maybe you need to rethink how often you do that
23:09:58  <defunctzombie>or maybe consider that what you are writing maybe isn't that modular
23:10:06  <Raynos>defunctzombie: its because im developing it as seperate modules instead of developing it as a framework and then making modules
23:10:08  <defunctzombie>or that you iterating quickly actually causes a burden for someone else
23:10:16  <creationix>defunctzombie, if you're deploying existing code to a new system, you should use shrinkwrap and only update the shrinkwrap after running the tests
23:10:22  <defunctzombie>maybe make it work locally first and then push the modules
23:10:37  <Raynos>its not so much making it wor
23:10:38  <defunctzombie>I think that is a failed hack fix
23:10:41  <Raynos>its the MVP approach to a framework
23:10:49  <Raynos>i build the MVP for webrtc
23:11:02  <defunctzombie>creationix: I do not like shrinkwrap, I think the issue is more core to the package installer/system
23:11:10  <Raynos>and then i iterate on cleanup, bug fixes, and introducing simplicity / swappability to individual components
23:11:12  <creationix>well anyway, regardless of the static version vs dynamic version debate, I want git urls to have the same capabilities as npm deps
23:11:19  <defunctzombie>I don't
23:11:28  * Maciek416quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
23:11:44  <defunctzombie>:)
23:11:44  <pkrumins>what are you guys discussing?
23:12:00  <defunctzombie>Raynos: and all those changes are potentially breaking changes
23:12:06  <Raynos>defunctzombie: when did you change your name to defunctzombie
23:12:15  <defunctzombie>Raynos: a few weeks ago iirc
23:12:36  <Raynos>defunctzombie: https://github.com/Raynos/npm-the-wizard this works now, it was private
23:13:01  <creationix>pkrumins, I want npm deps like git://host/path.git#~0.2.3 to do semver matching on the tags
23:13:19  <defunctzombie>Raynos: https://github.com/defunctzombie/zuul/tree/cloud
23:13:25  <defunctzombie>Raynos: been working on that this weekend
23:13:30  <Raynos>creationix: that would be nice. One you can do is to have a git post tag hook that created and updated a tag called "0.2.x" and "~0.2.3"
23:13:41  <Raynos>defunctzombie: nice, thats going to be useful :)
23:13:51  <defunctzombie>it is very useful
23:14:34  <Raynos>defunctzombie: why mocha instead of tape ?
23:14:48  <defunctzombie>because I like using the builtin assert
23:14:55  <defunctzombie>and mocha webpages look nicer
23:15:12  <defunctzombie>also more flexible for those that might not want to use tdd style.. who god knows why you wouldn't :)
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23:15:29  <Raynos>i like the qunit style if the suite(...) call was optional
23:15:35  <defunctzombie>it is optional
23:15:41  <defunctzombie>I actually use qunit myself
23:16:15  <defunctzombie>https://github.com/defunctzombie/domify-zuul
23:16:21  <defunctzombie>that is an example repo
23:16:38  <defunctzombie>gonna also make zuul work for testing stuff like engine.io-client
23:16:41  <defunctzombie>which will be awesome
23:16:45  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 2, free: 36]
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23:19:20  <defunctzombie>Raynos: adding other adapters, like tape would not be hard
23:19:21  <defunctzombie>Raynos: so if you want tape support... we can talk :)
23:20:12  <Raynos>:D
23:20:44  <Raynos>defunctzombie: https://github.com/defunctzombie/domify-zuul/blob/master/test/domify.js#L4 can you just not call suite(...)
23:21:22  <defunctzombie>Raynos: ?
23:21:49  <defunctzombie>Raynos: I do that on purpose... you can leave that out if you want
23:22:20  <Raynos>thats its just like tape
23:22:24  <Raynos>but magic `test` global
23:22:34  <defunctzombie>sure
23:22:41  <defunctzombie>I could make the test not a global
23:22:44  <defunctzombie>if I cared
23:22:50  <defunctzombie>and uses default assert module
23:23:02  <defunctzombie>instead of some other test framework's assert
23:23:09  <defunctzombie>I like the builtin assert module
23:23:16  <defunctzombie>cause I can just learn it once
23:24:13  <defunctzombie>tests should be simple and idiomatic and using builtin assert makes them simple imho
23:24:16  <defunctzombie>but use tape if you want :)
23:24:22  <defunctzombie>make a zuul adapter for tape :)
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23:25:35  * defunctzombiechanged nick to defunctzombie_zz
23:25:42  <ins0mnia>Raynos: are you still doing webrtc stuff?
23:25:49  <Raynos>not anymore
23:25:50  <Raynos>i did some a while ago
23:25:55  <Raynos>I know some people that do webrtc stuff
23:26:57  <ins0mnia>Raynos: gonna start looking into this, of what I see so far FF and Chrome kinda have slightly different api's..
23:27:15  <Raynos>a little
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23:27:25  <creationix>Raynos, I really don't want to depend on hooks. This is for beginners
23:27:28  <creationix>the less setup the better
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23:28:52  <Raynos>creationix: makes sense.
23:29:02  <creationix>Raynos, neat idea though
23:29:07  <Raynos>creationix: you can always just add a gitDependencies hash to package.json and have git install X
23:29:12  <creationix>except excessive tags does slow down git clones
23:29:15  <Raynos>or npmgit install X
23:29:20  <creationix>all tags are sent in every connection
23:29:23  <Raynos>and have your own installer query the tags and find the best things
23:29:39  <creationix>right, but I'm trying to stay npm compatable
23:29:51  <creationix>...if possible
23:30:10  <Raynos>Ah ok
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23:39:54  <ins0mnia>hij1nx: yeah npm fails to fetch paramify < 0.1.1
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23:48:37  <soldair>creationix: it is easy to add an npm install hook to handle gitDependencies as long as you depend on the git installer. if this could be considered npm compatible
23:50:12  <substack>Raynos: I agree that's why I float on the patch version unless the package has a history of breaking changes on patch ver
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23:54:37  <dominictarr_>substack, yo! I'm in beijing
23:55:28  <pkrumins>floating patch version also makes it much easier to quickly update packages
23:55:36  <substack>dominictarr_: me too!
23:55:37  <pkrumins>otherwise you've to edit package.json each time
23:55:49  * sveisveijoined
23:55:49  <substack>dominictarr_: I'm at pku youth hostel in haidan
23:56:04  <substack>dominictarr_: and my friend jiang is here too and he speaks chinese
23:56:25  * Raynos_joined
23:56:46  <dominictarr_>I'm still at the airport, gotta find a plug
23:57:05  <substack>they have all the kinds of plugs here
23:57:35  <substack>I'm plugged into a euroamerican plug and on the other side of the room they have au/nz plugs
23:57:53  <substack>and then in the middle they have power strips that work with all the kinds
23:59:20  <dominictarr_>sorry, I meant a socket
23:59:37  <dominictarr_>they have the best sockets here!
23:59:45  <substack>they have ALL the sockets
23:59:56  <substack>occasionally all in the same room at once