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03:51:45  <rowbit>substack, pkrumins: These encoders are STILL down: 173.203.67.76(free3)
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09:51:47  <rowbit>substack, pkrumins: These encoders are STILL down: 173.203.67.76(free3)
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11:36:17  <dominictarr>ogd: hey, what is the mozilla address? st martin ln, right?
11:39:25  <ogd>dominictarr: 101 st martin ln
11:39:39  <ogd>dominictarr: say at front desk that you're here to see Sole 'sole-ay' at Mozilla
11:45:09  <dominictarr>I'll say I'm here for supersole
11:45:32  <dominictarr>brt
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15:20:39  <thlorenz>defunctzombie: your name didn't fit in the tweet ;) https://twitter.com/thlorenz/status/395932851402977280
15:20:48  <thlorenz>plz join us in #npmalloc
15:20:57  <defunctzombie>hahah
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15:22:57  <defunctzombie>honestly, not really sure why anyone would write anything in c if you aren't doing something embedded or writing a support lib
15:23:13  <defunctzombie>if you care about basic perf, luajit will get you quite far
15:23:39  <thlorenz>:) unless you wanna get to the point where you understand system level stuff and/or things like libuv
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15:52:09  <defunctzombie>thisandagain: yea, but to understand those you need to know how c stuff works not how a new module system in c works :)
15:52:20  <defunctzombie>thisandagain: sorry, that was a tab error
15:52:25  <defunctzombie>thlorenz: ^
15:52:36  <defunctzombie>thlorenz: I also love the idea of re-usable c modules
15:53:01  <defunctzombie>good luck convincing c people tho.. it will be worse than convincing js people to use browserify hahaha
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15:53:35  <thlorenz>defunctzombie: well so far we are 4 strong in there (mostly recruited from the node community)
15:53:42  <defunctzombie>:)
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15:54:02  <thlorenz>btw anyone else who likes C and small packs "join #npmalloc"
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16:10:18  <rowbit>substack, pkrumins: Encoders down: 173.203.67.76 (free3)
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16:20:18  <ogd>nodeschool inspiration http://veltman.tumblr.com/post/65613277843/the-command-line-murders-teaching-the-terminal-with-a
16:22:47  <tmcw>so cool
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16:38:51  <dominictarr>so, question: gmail is commonly touted as example of when you need to load "megabytes" of javascript
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16:39:03  <dominictarr>and parts must be loaded in segments
16:39:09  <dominictarr>... but ...
16:39:23  <dominictarr>does it really have to be megabytes?
16:39:45  <dominictarr>to write letters to people, or is the code bloated?
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16:42:06  <tmcw>hm, I think it's a justified few megabytes
16:42:24  <tmcw>there are quite a few features that seem to be sort of windows into quite hard problems
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16:46:32  <dominictarr>tmcw: can you give me an example?
16:47:57  <tmcw>for instance, copying & pasting word-formatted html partially rewrites/parses the clipboard contents, or extracted dates from emails open a nearly full-fledged calendar input app
16:48:37  <tmcw>also seems like much of the filtering/searching logic is client-side and designed to work with an offline cache
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16:50:36  <jesusabdullah>¯\(°_o)/¯
16:53:19  <tmcw>yeah, I mean, can only really get so close a guess since everything they send over is pretty cryptic/uglified/etc and I only use a small part of the app
16:53:40  <tmcw>but given google's angle with gmail, there are probably quite a few like 'well, you have to make this huge heap of code to replicate a feature from outlook' type situations
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17:05:31  <dominictarr>tmcw_: pasting microsoft word: good point.
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17:34:21  <defunctzombie>tmcw: dominictarr : my guess is that it is a combination of both
17:34:39  <defunctzombie>they probably have some amount of legacy at this point (they also use gwt, no?)
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17:40:02  <dominictarr>defunctzombie: gwt? so that means they write it in java and then compile it to javascript?
17:40:10  <defunctzombie>potentially
17:40:18  <defunctzombie>but I would be totally speculating about that
17:40:25  <defunctzombie>so it is probably 0% true :)
17:41:43  <defunctzombie>but I will add that even with all that code they ship down, their site still loads fast and it works
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17:45:34  <st_luke>this whole time I thought that jira was the 9/11 of project management tools
17:45:36  <st_luke>how wrong I was
17:45:39  <st_luke>I have found the new 9/11
17:47:11  <dominictarr>defunctzombie: they do have that progressbar thing though
17:49:20  <defunctzombie>st_luke: what is it?
17:49:29  <defunctzombie>dominictarr: yea, minor thing tho honestly imho
17:49:32  <st_luke>this thing called rally
17:51:13  <dominictarr>st_luke: my favorite bad software metaphore http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-19741830
17:51:39  <st_luke>that's a good one
17:52:13  <st_luke>I like to use terrible historical events because they have a good punch to them
17:52:17  <st_luke>so people know you're really serious
17:52:47  <st_luke>then again, if you're pro-9/11, that might have a different meaning for you
17:53:58  <dominictarr>the unfortunate point where the metaphore breaks down is that historical events like 9/11 spur people into dramatic reactions
17:54:47  <dominictarr>where bad software just slowly saps the life of it's unfortunate user...
17:54:59  <defunctzombie>haha
17:55:23  <dominictarr>maybe the AIDS of project management?
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17:55:34  <dominictarr>Prostate Cancer?
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17:56:01  <jcrugzz>st_luke: oh wow, enterprise proven agile. you know its srs
17:57:29  <st_luke>dominictarr: computer people on the internet are prone to dramatic reactions for a lot less than that
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17:59:01  <dominictarr>st_luke: people on the internet are okay. it's people in the enterprise (and enterprise can be pretty small) that are the sad cases.
17:59:08  <dominictarr>(I've seen this first hand)
17:59:19  <dominictarr>I learnt alot about how not to make software
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18:23:49  <defunctzombie>https://twitter.com/defunctzombie/status/395978951690289152
18:23:54  <defunctzombie>wtf is this guy even talking about?
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18:25:01  <tmcw>eh, people get religious
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18:25:46  <tmcw>slash trolly.
18:25:58  <tmcw>are there any browserify transforms that inline functions?
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18:32:36  <spion>Raynos, why is yielding arrays and generators discussed in the agen-spec?
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18:33:58  <spion>first of all, yield* always works - libraries can't even interfere with that
18:36:28  <spion>:/
18:39:19  <defunctzombie>tmcw: substack was working on some stuff iirc
18:39:35  <spion>and second, yielding arrays may interfere with the long stack capabilities of some primitives.
18:39:53  * tmcwwill try to scroll through his projects without getting distracted by other cool stuff
18:40:06  <spion>(err some types of asynchrony)
18:42:26  <spion>ah. generator objects.
18:43:17  <dominict1rr>defunctzombie: lol browserify adjenda!
18:43:21  <dominict1rr>if only they knew!
18:43:33  <defunctzombie>yea.. I didn't really know how to respond
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18:44:18  <defunctzombie>I was at a loss for words... really
18:44:18  <dominict1rr>defunctzombie: just let it slide
18:44:30  <defunctzombie>the big browserify lobby powers
18:44:36  <defunctzombie>have to be silenced
18:46:30  <chrisdickinson>yeah, he's vehemently anti-browserify; i don't think anything will change his mind
18:48:11  <jcrugzz>defunctzombie: hes just insecure that AMD doesnt follow logic
18:48:21  <defunctzombie>hahaha
18:48:44  <defunctzombie>how does he work for a place that claims to develop node.js apps and be anti browserify? I don't get it
18:49:13  <jcrugzz>yea there is inherent contradiction in ideals
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18:49:31  <rowbit>/!\ ATTENTION: (default-local) kircxo@... successfully signed up for developer browserling plan ($20). Cash money! /!\
18:49:31  <rowbit>/!\ ATTENTION: (default-local) paid account successfully upgraded /!\
18:50:52  <defunctzombie>I should have just ignored the initial tweets :/
18:50:59  <defunctzombie>they just didn't make any sense
18:55:28  <spion>speaking of browserify, what do you guys think of a module that builds on top of browserify-externalize by looking up the correct bundles that needs to be loaded?
18:57:10  <spion>maybe by using a JSON dictionary that provides the module -> bundlefile mappings
19:00:30  * tilgoviquit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
19:01:23  <defunctzombie>honestly, I have yet to hear of the brilliant usecase that really requires all this aync code loading stuff :/
19:01:32  <defunctzombie>I can certainly see where you might want it in certain cases
19:01:41  <dominict1rr>jcrugzz: chrisdickinson defunctzombie hes probably a cia plant sent to disrupt the "browserify adjenda"
19:01:44  <defunctzombie>but I kinda see it as a premature optimization in many ways
19:02:45  <jcrugzz>dominict1rr: lol
19:02:50  <defunctzombie>haha
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19:03:39  <jcrugzz>defunctzombie: yea idk either, it just creates mental insanity and a crazy build process that i never got to work to even make it usable
19:04:02  <jcrugzz>i had one bad experience when i was still in college trying to use AMD for a backbone app i was making for a client
19:04:06  <jcrugzz>so terrible
19:04:30  <jcrugzz>the optimizer wouldnt compile things together
19:04:45  <spion>defunctzombie, I suppose some people have really large codebases
19:05:00  <defunctzombie>sure...so use different js files on different pages
19:05:09  <defunctzombie>or different "apps"
19:05:21  <defunctzombie>I would rather load 500k of js upfront for the user
19:05:40  <defunctzombie>than load 50k 10 times
19:05:48  <defunctzombie>each async load is a potential network failure
19:05:52  <defunctzombie>and delay in user interface
19:06:42  * mikolalysenkoquit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
19:07:08  <jcrugzz>yea idk, i think everyone still undervalues dependency management as well
19:08:34  <spion>defunctzombie, I'd say the split between "different apps" and 500K of JS upfront is too rigid
19:08:41  <spion>its not too hard to do better, even with browserify.
19:08:50  <dominict1rr>defunctzombie: so the reasonable case is that it's probably better to load 500k 10 times than 5m all at once
19:08:53  <dominict1rr>but then you have other problems.
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19:10:26  <defunctzombie>for my app I have a base.js
19:10:29  <defunctzombie>and a page.js
19:10:39  <defunctzombie>base.js contains common modules, etc I use across many different "app" pages
19:10:46  <defunctzombie>and page.js just contains the app logic for that app
19:11:19  <spion>yea, that works. the only remaining case are client-side routers.
19:11:30  <defunctzombie>I use page.js for client side routing
19:11:42  <defunctzombie>has some shortcomings, but works well
19:12:57  <spion>My plan is to implement a lazy loading client-side router, once I see that I actually need it.
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19:13:18  <spion>its very much doable.
19:16:45  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 6, free: 82]
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19:23:49  <jjjohnny_>rook2pawn: email me mostmodernist@gmail.com
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19:26:38  <st_luke>amd is going to go away
19:27:31  <st_luke>im sure some really dumb people will still use it
19:27:36  <st_luke>but nobody smart will in the future
19:32:45  <defunctzombie>hahaha
19:32:58  <defunctzombie>st_luke: that needs to be an OH tweet
19:34:01  <st_luke>just tell people if they use amd they're a total knob
19:34:11  <st_luke>have you ever seen someone try to use it
19:34:20  <Raynos>spion: yes yielding generator objects always works
19:34:26  <st_luke>they have to write this special object literal poem before they can even write a module
19:34:32  <Raynos>spion: thats just mentioned as a valid thing, which is trivially valid
19:34:53  <Raynos>spion: yielding arrays is done to enable a parallel primitive without dependending on a third party library
19:35:19  <Raynos>spion: this would allow any arbitrary generator on npm to use parallel execution without having to ask himself "is the AGen compliant runner going to support my parallel thing" ?
19:35:39  <Raynos>spion: It also means you can put generators on npm that do NOT have dependencies on third party modules
19:39:16  <defunctzombie>st_luke: ahahha
19:39:20  <defunctzombie>st_luke: poem
19:39:23  <defunctzombie>I like that
19:41:32  <AvianFlu>AN OBJECT LITERAL POEM!? YOU MEAN LIKE A VOWS TEST!?
19:41:33  <LOUDBOT>GUISE GUISE DDR SUPERNOVA WAS THE BEST! 250% MOAR JAPANESE ELECTRO-POP TO SPAZ TO!
19:46:19  * tilgovijoined
19:46:52  <shama>substack, ogd, hope you guys dont mind me writing a post titled: "Where voxel.js has failed" in response to the conversation AMD/node conversations on twitter today. Basically Im explaining parts of voxel are failing because we copied how frameworks traditionally are constructed, passing an instance to modules creating a peer dep thus creating painful versioning issues. Basically we would have avoided it if we wo
19:46:52  <shama>uld have only used nested deps (and exactly what jrburke and blaine are arguing against).
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19:53:50  <Raynos>spion: I recommend you open issues on the Agen or gens repo with these questions
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19:55:25  <jcrugzz>AvianFlu +1
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19:57:24  <Raynos>shama: show me these twitter wars
19:58:45  <shama>Raynos: https://twitter.com/substack/status/394939200950136834
20:00:30  <shama>basically this post hit me: https://twitter.com/BlaineBublitz/status/394946542613704704 but because Blaine is right... although he is only right because we're using peer deps with voxel opposed to nested deps like we should have. Exactly what they are arguing against.
20:01:34  <shama>so voxel is an excellent example of why flat dependencies dont work
20:02:49  <shama>All the parts of voxel that are nested are working
20:05:30  <Raynos>shama: I dont understand what the pain is?
20:05:41  <Raynos>but i do understand the pain of peer deps
20:05:43  <Raynos>worst idea ever.
20:05:56  <Raynos>if your going to require something, then require it
20:06:17  <Raynos>if you take an argument, document the interface and dont peer depend on a concrete implementation
20:06:47  <shama>Raynos: Most modules in voxel require a certain version of voxel-engine as a peer dep. So when trying out voxel, you have to figure out which and modules that rely on different versions of voxel-engine dont work together
20:07:06  <Raynos>leveldb has a similar problem
20:07:15  <Raynos>a lot of modules extend leveldb and assume things
20:07:17  <shama>it is painful, but only because we made the mistake that frameworks always make
20:07:20  <Raynos>so you have compat issues due to plugins
20:07:24  <shama>yeah
20:07:38  <Raynos>what should have been done
20:07:43  <Raynos>is levelup should not have methods
20:07:50  <shama>but jrburke and blaine want all modules to be peer deps just to make it easier to configure requirejs... which is a huge mistake
20:07:55  <Raynos>but everyone passes an instance of leveldown around and all the levelup methods are in npm
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20:10:16  <defunctzombie>requirejs is a bad solution and I feel no shame in saying that
20:14:05  <Raynos>shama: what is your github?
20:14:16  <shama>github.com/shama
20:16:45  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 0, free: 148]
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20:31:23  <chrisdickinson>shama: interesting
20:31:35  <chrisdickinson>yeah, having to pass a voxel engine in as an argument makes life a bit hard
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20:32:13  <chrisdickinson>also hilariously i was there for what he was talking about
20:32:25  <chrisdickinson>(nodebotsday pdx)
20:32:48  <chrisdickinson>he was having issues with beefy as well
20:33:05  <chrisdickinson>(since beefy assumed a global install of browserify at the time)
20:33:21  <chrisdickinson>the project he was having trouble with in particular was voxel-ar-rone
20:33:24  <chrisdickinson>*ar-drone
20:33:57  <shama>chrisdickinson: yeah, the stable version of that module is unfortunately all the way back on voxel-engine@0.3.3
20:34:01  <chrisdickinson>yeah
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20:34:37  <shama>voxel should be a huge testament to why flat dependencies are fail
20:34:54  <chrisdickinson>shama: ultimately what i was hoping for with voxel-engine (way back when) was to get it to a point where it was just a scene graph + set of objects to be updated
20:34:57  <shama>(and we should fix it)
20:35:00  <chrisdickinson>the nested dependencies actually work really well
20:35:06  <chrisdickinson>so voxel isn't all bad
20:35:18  <chrisdickinson>it's the building on top of voxel that's difficult
20:36:01  <shama>yeah... I think of lot of it was because we needed three.js passed everywhere too
20:36:26  <shama>so building a modular engine on top of a un-modular framework was rough
20:36:57  <chrisdickinson>actually one of the problems i most ran into is that it's hard to squeeze new datatypes into nested hierarchies
20:37:06  <shama>I just straight out didnt know any better :)
20:37:09  <chrisdickinson>for instance, 3d vectors
20:37:41  <chrisdickinson>iirc we standardized *eventually* on `[x, y, z]`
20:37:51  <shama>yeah that was good
20:37:54  <chrisdickinson>but then each dep would have to bring in its own 3d vector library
20:37:57  <chrisdickinson>to manipulate them
20:38:07  <chrisdickinson>and you end up with a bunch of gl-matrix's all over the place
20:38:27  <chrisdickinson>(or worse, having to float your dep on gl-matrix or otherwise make *that* the peerDep)
20:39:27  <chrisdickinson>OTOH, i think a lot of mikolalysenko's stuff that came from voxel is reusable wholly without of voxel-engine, so that's a huge win
20:40:15  <shama>yeah totally
20:40:58  <shama>plugins are complicated... i really dont know what the best solution is for them
20:41:10  <shama>but to try and avoid them heh
20:41:11  <chrisdickinson>anyway, +1 on that post. would also be interested in "where voxel.js has succeeded", or maybe just a retrospective in general
20:41:34  <shama>cool
20:42:06  <chrisdickinson>also sorry if any of my stuff has at any point caused you grief :)
20:42:31  <shama>oh not at all... I think its mostly my fault as almost all my modules do that
20:42:37  <shama>most of yours dont
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20:48:36  <jesusabdullah>AvianFlu: best reply
20:48:57  <Raynos>shama: https://github.com/rvagg/node-levelup/issues/212
20:53:01  <shama>Raynos: nice
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21:00:20  <AvianFlu>jesusabdullah: the mailing list or the vows joke?
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21:16:45  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 0, free: 114]
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21:35:26  <shama>http://dontkry.com/posts/games/where-voxel-js-has-failed.html
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21:38:27  <Raynos>shama: so I think for voxeljs & leveldb
21:38:34  <Raynos>the solution is to peer depend on the absolute minimal thing
21:38:43  <Raynos>you need to peer depend on an interface
21:38:49  <Raynos>preferably that interface is just a flat json data structure
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21:39:43  <chrisdickinson>I'm of the opinion that you should only share the information that is strictly necessary
21:39:48  <Raynos>then you can do things like `drone(myVoxelStructure, ...)`
21:40:03  <Raynos>so as long as you have a really small data structure and dont break back compat on it
21:40:07  <Raynos>then you can share them
21:40:12  <chrisdickinson>drone(manipulateControls)
21:40:20  <Raynos>if you ever change from [x, y, z] to { x, y, z } everything changes
21:40:28  <chrisdickinson>worked out great for my git stuff -- few things have a dep on the repo itself
21:40:53  <chrisdickinson>but many tools can just depend on an argument that is `fn(hash, ready(err, git_object))`
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21:41:21  <Raynos>voxel sky should not take a voxel engine
21:41:23  <shama>yeah it just takes a lot more thought... anticipating the switch from {x,y,z} to [x,y,z] is hard
21:41:26  <Raynos>it should just return a matrix of voxels
21:41:34  <Raynos>that the user of the engine adds to the engine
21:41:38  <Raynos>even if you change
21:41:52  <shama>agreed
21:41:52  <Raynos>then you can do `engine.addVoxels(toTriplet(voxelSky(...)))`
21:42:07  <Raynos>at least you can easily convert [x, y, z] to { x, y, z } or vica versa
21:42:13  <Raynos>if voxel sky returned the data structure
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21:43:31  <shama>I really wish I knew all of this before I created so many voxel modules... its going to be so much work to update heh
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21:45:39  <chrisdickinson>it definitely happens
21:45:42  <chrisdickinson>also!
21:45:45  <chrisdickinson>this is why we have major versions :)
21:46:02  <shama>heh
21:47:09  <shama>well im not going to put too much work into updating until I get mikola's stuff integrated... my broken modules will only motivate me to get to it sooner (just as soon as I get a full time job too though)
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21:47:55  <chrisdickinson>i've got a pile of broken-ish git modules i need to repair too, so i feel your pain :)
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21:58:19  <Raynos>shama: just write new modules
21:58:21  <Raynos>thats what I do
21:58:41  <jcrugzz>lol
21:58:56  <Raynos>how else could I have 200+ modules
21:59:09  <jcrugzz>maybe good for you but less good for users ;)
22:00:52  <Raynos>:P
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22:05:20  <rowbit>substack, pkrumins: These encoders are STILL down: 173.203.67.76(free3)
22:08:28  <mikolalysenko>shama: kind of sad post, though I don't know that voxel.js should really be considered a "failure"
22:09:45  <shama>mikolalysenko: I certainly dont consider it a failure... just the parts where we did it the way jrburke and blaine are advocating have failed.
22:10:39  <shama>The post could have been titled, "Why peer dependencies suck"
22:11:26  <substack>why flat dependencies suck
22:11:34  <substack>all of the above
22:13:03  <substack>thlorenz: were you going to send a pull req for browser-pack or should I just cherry-pick your fix?
22:13:06  <mikolalysenko>yeah
22:13:32  <shama>But I picked that title because telling someone their right but explaining how they're wrong is a better strategy, imo
22:13:35  <thlorenz>substack: I didn't get around to add any tests yet, if you can wait one more day I'll clean it up
22:13:45  <substack>ok sure, no rush
22:13:50  <substack>thanks for tackling it
22:13:51  <thlorenz>also should the flag be 'nomap' or 'deduped' ?
22:13:54  <thlorenz>np
22:14:01  <thlorenz>nomap is more generic
22:14:16  <thlorenz>but then browserify kinda knows what it's for ;)
22:14:32  <substack>does your patch just collapse nomap/deduped entries into zero-length source?
22:14:35  <thlorenz>they pack and ify kinda know about each other if you want or not
22:14:52  <thlorenz>no, it just doesn't add sourcemaps for it
22:15:01  <thlorenz>since you are only gonna hit the original code
22:15:01  <substack>ok then nomap sounds good
22:15:07  <thlorenz>not the redirect
22:15:08  <thlorenz>od
22:15:09  <thlorenz>ok
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22:15:31  <thlorenz>so no reason to add a sourcemap for the redirect (which until now overwrote the real sourcemap)
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22:16:07  <substack>is there a way to just put an empty source map to be picked up by browser-pack though?
22:16:12  <substack>I'm still not sure why that wouldn't work
22:16:23  <substack>since browser-pack concats together all the source maps into one big map
22:16:29  <thlorenz>because the empty sourcemap would overwrite the good one
22:16:45  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: [developer: 0, free: 108]
22:16:45  <thlorenz>it's a hash inside combine-sourcemap
22:17:01  <substack>ok
22:17:17  <thlorenz>also you don't want two ember.js files and one is just empty
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22:24:53  <AvianPhone>HAPPY HALLOWEEN LOUDBOT
22:24:54  <LOUDBOT>YEAH SMOKING IS BAD INSTEAD SUCK MY DICK
22:29:10  <substack>LOUDBOT: search halloween
22:29:10  <LOUDBOT>substack: <epoch:#perl> HAPPY HALLOWEEN CAPITALS YES TROLLIN I FELL OFF <3
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23:02:56  * defunctzombiechanged nick to defunctzombie_zz
23:07:06  <spion>Raynos, okay, I will
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23:18:00  <spion>done
23:20:29  <spion>the reason I didn't understand the inclusion of arrays is basically the same thing I asked about on IRC a month ago
23:20:34  * thlorenzjoined
23:20:52  <spion>so I'm going to ask that instead
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