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00:00:08  <Raynos>maybe :p
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00:00:38  <Raynos>i just didnt want to do the thunk vs promise thing
00:00:53  <spion>I'm almost definitely sure. because thats what the generator runner gets and it just has to know what to do with it...
00:01:07  <spion>unless you configure an asynchrony runner
00:01:21  <spion>yes I get that
00:01:26  <spion>but why VS. why not both?
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00:03:20  <spion>and then there is the weirdness method of genny and suspend :)
00:03:28  <spion>where nothing is yielded, yet results are produced :D
00:03:51  <spion>have no ideas at the moment how to incorporate that (and if that should be a part at all)
00:04:10  <spion>seems like people aren't too enthusiastic about that method (that surprised me)
00:04:23  <spion>because I was like, hey, no wrapping! awesome.
00:05:47  <spion>i guess its because it adds a layer of weirdness
00:06:08  <spion>so promises and thunks should be in the base
00:06:28  <spion>maybe a better way to look at it is to take a couple of those libraries and see what they *all* support, then put that in the spec?
00:07:17  <spion>because genny has the weird method, but it also does promises and thunks and arrays of the above. also co does that. also suspend seems to support both promises and thunks (but not sure about arrays)
00:08:53  <spion>then gens only does thunks (right?), and Q.async only promsies
00:09:08  <pkrumins>testling now has the latest browsers, such as firefox 24, chrome 29, opera 15 :)
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00:13:37  <spion>so... perhaps the start could be a set of features that at least 1/2 of the libraries support, or something like that.
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00:15:29  <spion>need to think more on this. but first sleep (2am here)
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00:16:00  <CrabDude>spion: the goal was also to come up with a comprehensive spec to address interoperability
00:16:38  <CrabDude>spion: many of the AsyncGenerator libs are incompatible, non-composable, etc...
00:17:02  <CrabDude>spion: e.g., they handle errors differently
00:18:38  <spion>yeah, its an excellent goal
00:19:07  <spion>but still, don't see how interoperability can be achieved without specifying a minimal set of supported asynchrony
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00:19:12  <spion>... types
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00:24:02  <CrabDude>spion: I think the important point is that it doesn't matter what they are, so long as they are
00:24:29  <CrabDude>spion: thus the agnoticism
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00:24:38  <spion>but... uhh.
00:25:23  <spion>okay, lets say that remains agnostic. then someone wants to write a generator that conforms to the specs. what do they yield? they decide on promsies. And thats okay according to the spec.
00:26:03  <spion>Another person decides to write the library conforming to the spec. The library works with thunks, and thats conforming to the spec, yeah.
00:26:11  <spion>yet compatibility is not achieved.
00:26:17  <spion>therefore the spec is not useful.
00:26:36  <CrabDude>yes and no, the spec is still useful because the asynchony are supportable
00:26:49  <CrabDude>so interoperability is possible
00:27:06  <spion>interoperability is possible, but the spec doesn't achieve it.
00:27:22  <CrabDude>but it's trivial to achieve
00:27:23  <spion>(or rather, conforming to the spec doesn't lead to interoperability)
00:27:35  <CrabDude>it's a matter of mapping
00:27:53  <CrabDude>and given the "supportable asynchrony" section
00:28:40  <CrabDude>it must expose an API to obtain a value and an error and nothing else
00:29:30  * ferossquit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
00:29:53  <CrabDude>I understand your point, but the goal of the spec is to define a style of writing generators that will be interoperable, and make asynchrony types irrelevant
00:31:10  <spion>is there a good reason not to ask that the set at least contain both promises and thunks (minimum)?
00:31:37  <spion>that should cover at least 90% of the ecosystem, right?
00:31:44  <CrabDude>yes, that's true
00:32:04  <CrabDude>but we didn't want to require an implementation support promises if someone intends not to use promises
00:33:08  <CrabDude>if they discover they must support a library that yields on promises, they can upgrade to a promise-supporting implementation without rewriting any of their code.
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00:33:14  <CrabDude>and vice versa for thunks
00:33:49  <CrabDude>the key point here being they would not need to rewrite any of their code
00:34:09  <CrabDude>thus it would be fully interoperable across all supportable asynchrony
00:34:10  <spion>... in order to for example handle errors differently, yes, I get that.
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00:35:43  <spion>you have a point. but uhh. well. you could say the same about error handling
00:36:00  <spion>if they discover that the library doesn't do error handling the way the want, they can upgrade to one that does.
00:36:32  <spion>s/upgrade/switch
00:37:33  <CrabDude>spion: i don't follow? do you mean that in context of AGen or in a general context?
00:38:12  <spion>in a general context. the same argument could be made for any speced feature.
00:39:07  <CrabDude>Your implying any additional feature becomes a superset?
00:40:03  <CrabDude>this is true, but the goal is to create a minimum set of functionality that would be sufficiently powerful to enable a library author to guarantee interoperability
00:40:17  <CrabDude>if additional features are a superset, then AGen is meant to be a baseline
00:40:22  <spion>i was looking at it from the aspect of a generator writer.
00:41:04  <CrabDude>I don't follow?
00:41:51  <spion>I'm writing a library that exports AGen generators. What do I yield to guarantee that the library will work with AGen runners?
00:41:59  <spion>thats probably the first question
00:42:16  <spion>the second is how do I handle errors (though its probably as important as the first)
00:43:26  <CrabDude>1. The base form of asynchrony in node.js is thunks
00:43:42  <CrabDude>HOWEVER, once promises are in the language, they would be equally viable
00:43:58  <CrabDude>2. Error handling is very specifically laid out in the spec
00:44:26  <CrabDude>yield fs.readFile.bind(null, filePath)
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00:44:40  <CrabDude>thunks require no library support
00:44:48  <CrabDude>eventually promises will also require no library support
00:45:45  <spion>so why not make both thunks and promises the baseline minimum. at least: single thunk, single promise.
00:46:02  <CrabDude>Because node does not support promises as first class
00:46:26  <CrabDude>so requiring that they be supported is extraneous, depending on the application
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00:46:44  <spion>its pretty trivial to support both.
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00:48:45  <spion>but I guess that will alienate library authors that are hardcore fans
00:50:12  <spion>its not like one needs to import a whole promise library.
00:50:25  <CrabDude>agreed
00:50:35  <CrabDude>you may be right
00:50:38  <CrabDude>but we'll see
00:50:58  <CrabDude>since promises will be in the language, and thunks are de facto supported
00:51:04  <CrabDude>in node
00:51:27  <CrabDude>it would make sense, if others insisted too, to just add that thunks and promises must be supported
00:51:34  <spion>thunks are supported in node... in a way.
00:51:50  <spion>whats really supported without any wrapping is passing resumer functions
00:51:56  <CrabDude>however, then the spec is now whitelisting supportable asynchrony
00:52:07  <spion>but perhaps people don't really want it
00:52:11  <CrabDude>which means it has cast a value judgement in a way on which are relevant
00:52:16  <CrabDude>which seems unnecessary
00:52:28  <spion>yes it is. for the sake of interoperability.
00:52:59  <CrabDude>for interoperability, you would need not only specify thunks and promises as supported types, but REQUIRE they be the ONLY supported types
00:53:00  <spion>okay, perhaps it isn't. error handling is much more important, yeah.
00:53:23  <spion>no, its enough to require a minimum set. then one can write code using the minimum set and get interoperability
00:53:37  <CrabDude>in what way is error handling not specified by the spec?
00:53:42  <spion>it is.
00:53:58  <spion>I'm saying that I agree its more important than the types of asynchrony :)
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00:58:17  <spion>though I'll need to take another, more through look at that tomorrow
00:58:21  <spion>with a fresher brain
00:59:50  <CrabDude>spion: Thanks. Really appreciate the eyes.
01:00:16  <spion>a bit tired eyes. but I finally got why the type of asynchrony isn't important
01:00:28  <spion>because you don't have to make a choice there, you can support a union :)
01:00:28  <CrabDude>spion: Also, your "Analysis of generators and other async patterns in node" post was outstanding!
01:00:34  <spion>with error handling choices must be made, one way or another
01:00:41  <spion>thanks :D
01:01:33  <spion>s/isn't important/isn't *that* important
01:02:27  <spion>I wrote that promises are slow,
01:02:34  <spion>and then petkaantonov wrote https://github.com/petkaantonov/bluebird
01:03:02  <spion>a promise library with callback-level performance (that doesn't sacrifice exception safety!)
01:03:02  <CrabDude>well, it'll ultimately be a moot point once they're in the language
01:03:05  <CrabDude>err VM
01:03:56  <spion>and he made it a moot point *now* :D
01:06:19  <CrabDude>not really though because people aren't all using bluebird
01:06:29  <CrabDude>promises are only comparable IF you use bluebird
01:07:15  <spion>yes. its a bit early, since bluebird just got out about a 5 days ago
01:07:21  <spion>-a
01:08:07  <CrabDude>haha
01:08:16  <CrabDude>sure, maybe everyone will adopt it as a core shim
01:08:28  <CrabDude>that would actually make it a moot point
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01:22:56  <pkrumins>browserling now also has the latest browsers, such as firefox 24, chrome 29 and opera 15!
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02:14:28  <rook2pawn>wow even opera :-)
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04:02:38  <defunctzombie>THE GOVERNMENT HAS SHUT DOWN!!
04:02:38  <LOUDBOT>I COULDN'T AGREE WITH HIM MORE, I COULDN'T DISAGREE, I, UH, UH, MY FELLOW PRISONERS
04:02:43  <defunctzombie>WE ARE ON OUR OWN!
04:02:43  <LOUDBOT>NECK YOU NEED TO STOP ALL THAT CHEWING!
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08:53:02  <niftylettuce>can u test 4 me? micro project in a day https://wakeup.io
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14:33:12  <AvianPhone>HELP LOUDBOT THIS TRAIN IS GOING UNDERGROUND
14:33:12  <LOUDBOT>WE PAY TUITION AND TAXES. THESE BUILDINGS ARE OURS ANYWAYS
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17:50:33  <jesusabdullah>guys I don't like angular
17:50:38  <jesusabdullah>I've decided this
17:50:54  <jesusabdullah>that's it I'm writing a blog post about data binding and how it's usually not a good idea
17:53:17  <jesusabdullah>haugalalguglgulaag
17:54:24  <Maciek416>make sure to have the word "why" or "how" at the start of your title and post it on HN like, now
17:54:54  <mbalho>10 quick bikini clad reasons why data binding is a bad idea
17:55:06  <mbalho>that get like 4 billion upvotes on hn
17:56:17  <jesusabdullah>title: "The NowJS Problem: Or, Why Angular Isn't So Great"
17:56:20  <jesusabdullah>working title ^^
17:56:48  <jesusabdullah>The NowJS Problem: Or, Why I Hate $scope.$watch
17:57:14  <jesusabdullah>The NowJS Problem relates to an anecdote regarding nowjs, dnode and hook.io
17:58:32  <jesusabdullah>IT WAS A DIFFERENT TIME
17:58:32  <LOUDBOT>IF PAST TENSE OF HANG IS HANGED, DOES THAT MEAN YOU ARE HANGEDOVER?
17:58:49  <jesusabdullah>IN A WORLD WHERE PEOPLE THINK THEY WANT SYNCHRONIZED DATA STRUCTURES
17:58:49  <LOUDBOT>EVERYTHING IS EITHER COMPLETELY PRIVATE OR COMPLETELY PUBLIC
17:59:03  <jesusabdullah>YOUR MOM IS COMPLETELY PUBLIC
17:59:04  <LOUDBOT>THIS HAS BEEN A HORRIBLE MISTAKE
17:59:11  <jesusabdullah>YES IT HAS LOUD BOT YES IT HAS
17:59:12  <LOUDBOT>DON'T FLASH FROM A FLOPPY DISK!!!!
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18:00:21  <Maciek416>jesus
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18:08:52  <AvianFlu>jesusabdullah: SUPER DUPER REAL-TIME FRAMEWORK! UBER WEBSCALE ONE-SECOND POLLING INTERVAL!
18:13:02  <Maciek416>github down = internet snow day
18:13:18  <Maciek416>github down = CLASS OUTSIDE!
18:14:01  <spion>jesusabdullah, looking forward to reading it, as I don't see why its not a good idea.
18:22:45  <jesusabdullah>AvianFlu: It's a way tighter loop than that
18:23:05  <AvianFlu>jesusabdullah: now.js used to have a one-second polling intervarl
18:23:08  <AvianFlu>interval
18:23:10  <AvianFlu>that was the joke
18:23:15  <jesusabdullah>angular's is way tighter
18:23:24  <AvianFlu>that's almost worse XD
18:23:34  <jesusabdullah>like a sphincter at a prostate exam
18:23:37  <jesusabdullah>*shudder*
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19:22:06  <robertkowalski>win 11
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