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| 00:00:08
| <Raynos> | maybe :p |
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| <Raynos> | i just didnt want to do the thunk vs promise thing |
| 00:00:53
| <spion> | I'm almost definitely sure. because thats what the generator runner gets and it just has to know what to do with it... |
| 00:01:07
| <spion> | unless you configure an asynchrony runner |
| 00:01:21
| <spion> | yes I get that |
| 00:01:26
| <spion> | but why VS. why not both? |
| 00:02:26
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| 00:03:20
| <spion> | and then there is the weirdness method of genny and suspend :) |
| 00:03:28
| <spion> | where nothing is yielded, yet results are produced :D |
| 00:03:51
| <spion> | have no ideas at the moment how to incorporate that (and if that should be a part at all) |
| 00:04:10
| <spion> | seems like people aren't too enthusiastic about that method (that surprised me) |
| 00:04:23
| <spion> | because I was like, hey, no wrapping! awesome. |
| 00:05:47
| <spion> | i guess its because it adds a layer of weirdness |
| 00:06:08
| <spion> | so promises and thunks should be in the base |
| 00:06:28
| <spion> | maybe a better way to look at it is to take a couple of those libraries and see what they *all* support, then put that in the spec? |
| 00:07:17
| <spion> | because genny has the weird method, but it also does promises and thunks and arrays of the above. also co does that. also suspend seems to support both promises and thunks (but not sure about arrays) |
| 00:08:53
| <spion> | then gens only does thunks (right?), and Q.async only promsies |
| 00:09:08
| <pkrumins> | testling now has the latest browsers, such as firefox 24, chrome 29, opera 15 :) |
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| 00:13:37
| <spion> | so... perhaps the start could be a set of features that at least 1/2 of the libraries support, or something like that. |
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| <spion> | need to think more on this. but first sleep (2am here) |
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| <CrabDude> | spion: the goal was also to come up with a comprehensive spec to address interoperability |
| 00:16:38
| <CrabDude> | spion: many of the AsyncGenerator libs are incompatible, non-composable, etc... |
| 00:17:02
| <CrabDude> | spion: e.g., they handle errors differently |
| 00:18:38
| <spion> | yeah, its an excellent goal |
| 00:19:07
| <spion> | but still, don't see how interoperability can be achieved without specifying a minimal set of supported asynchrony |
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| 00:19:12
| <spion> | ... types |
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| <CrabDude> | spion: I think the important point is that it doesn't matter what they are, so long as they are |
| 00:24:29
| <CrabDude> | spion: thus the agnoticism |
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| 00:24:38
| <spion> | but... uhh. |
| 00:25:23
| <spion> | okay, lets say that remains agnostic. then someone wants to write a generator that conforms to the specs. what do they yield? they decide on promsies. And thats okay according to the spec. |
| 00:26:03
| <spion> | Another person decides to write the library conforming to the spec. The library works with thunks, and thats conforming to the spec, yeah. |
| 00:26:11
| <spion> | yet compatibility is not achieved. |
| 00:26:17
| <spion> | therefore the spec is not useful. |
| 00:26:36
| <CrabDude> | yes and no, the spec is still useful because the asynchony are supportable |
| 00:26:49
| <CrabDude> | so interoperability is possible |
| 00:27:06
| <spion> | interoperability is possible, but the spec doesn't achieve it. |
| 00:27:22
| <CrabDude> | but it's trivial to achieve |
| 00:27:23
| <spion> | (or rather, conforming to the spec doesn't lead to interoperability) |
| 00:27:35
| <CrabDude> | it's a matter of mapping |
| 00:27:53
| <CrabDude> | and given the "supportable asynchrony" section |
| 00:28:40
| <CrabDude> | it must expose an API to obtain a value and an error and nothing else |
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| 00:29:53
| <CrabDude> | I understand your point, but the goal of the spec is to define a style of writing generators that will be interoperable, and make asynchrony types irrelevant |
| 00:31:10
| <spion> | is there a good reason not to ask that the set at least contain both promises and thunks (minimum)? |
| 00:31:37
| <spion> | that should cover at least 90% of the ecosystem, right? |
| 00:31:44
| <CrabDude> | yes, that's true |
| 00:32:04
| <CrabDude> | but we didn't want to require an implementation support promises if someone intends not to use promises |
| 00:33:08
| <CrabDude> | if they discover they must support a library that yields on promises, they can upgrade to a promise-supporting implementation without rewriting any of their code. |
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| <CrabDude> | and vice versa for thunks |
| 00:33:49
| <CrabDude> | the key point here being they would not need to rewrite any of their code |
| 00:34:09
| <CrabDude> | thus it would be fully interoperable across all supportable asynchrony |
| 00:34:10
| <spion> | ... in order to for example handle errors differently, yes, I get that. |
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| 00:35:43
| <spion> | you have a point. but uhh. well. you could say the same about error handling |
| 00:36:00
| <spion> | if they discover that the library doesn't do error handling the way the want, they can upgrade to one that does. |
| 00:36:32
| <spion> | s/upgrade/switch |
| 00:37:33
| <CrabDude> | spion: i don't follow? do you mean that in context of AGen or in a general context? |
| 00:38:12
| <spion> | in a general context. the same argument could be made for any speced feature. |
| 00:39:07
| <CrabDude> | Your implying any additional feature becomes a superset? |
| 00:40:03
| <CrabDude> | this is true, but the goal is to create a minimum set of functionality that would be sufficiently powerful to enable a library author to guarantee interoperability |
| 00:40:17
| <CrabDude> | if additional features are a superset, then AGen is meant to be a baseline |
| 00:40:22
| <spion> | i was looking at it from the aspect of a generator writer. |
| 00:41:04
| <CrabDude> | I don't follow? |
| 00:41:51
| <spion> | I'm writing a library that exports AGen generators. What do I yield to guarantee that the library will work with AGen runners? |
| 00:41:59
| <spion> | thats probably the first question |
| 00:42:16
| <spion> | the second is how do I handle errors (though its probably as important as the first) |
| 00:43:26
| <CrabDude> | 1. The base form of asynchrony in node.js is thunks |
| 00:43:42
| <CrabDude> | HOWEVER, once promises are in the language, they would be equally viable |
| 00:43:58
| <CrabDude> | 2. Error handling is very specifically laid out in the spec |
| 00:44:26
| <CrabDude> | yield fs.readFile.bind(null, filePath) |
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| <CrabDude> | thunks require no library support |
| 00:44:48
| <CrabDude> | eventually promises will also require no library support |
| 00:45:45
| <spion> | so why not make both thunks and promises the baseline minimum. at least: single thunk, single promise. |
| 00:46:02
| <CrabDude> | Because node does not support promises as first class |
| 00:46:26
| <CrabDude> | so requiring that they be supported is extraneous, depending on the application |
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| 00:46:44
| <spion> | its pretty trivial to support both. |
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| 00:48:45
| <spion> | but I guess that will alienate library authors that are hardcore fans |
| 00:50:12
| <spion> | its not like one needs to import a whole promise library. |
| 00:50:25
| <CrabDude> | agreed |
| 00:50:35
| <CrabDude> | you may be right |
| 00:50:38
| <CrabDude> | but we'll see |
| 00:50:58
| <CrabDude> | since promises will be in the language, and thunks are de facto supported |
| 00:51:04
| <CrabDude> | in node |
| 00:51:27
| <CrabDude> | it would make sense, if others insisted too, to just add that thunks and promises must be supported |
| 00:51:34
| <spion> | thunks are supported in node... in a way. |
| 00:51:50
| <spion> | whats really supported without any wrapping is passing resumer functions |
| 00:51:56
| <CrabDude> | however, then the spec is now whitelisting supportable asynchrony |
| 00:52:07
| <spion> | but perhaps people don't really want it |
| 00:52:11
| <CrabDude> | which means it has cast a value judgement in a way on which are relevant |
| 00:52:16
| <CrabDude> | which seems unnecessary |
| 00:52:28
| <spion> | yes it is. for the sake of interoperability. |
| 00:52:59
| <CrabDude> | for interoperability, you would need not only specify thunks and promises as supported types, but REQUIRE they be the ONLY supported types |
| 00:53:00
| <spion> | okay, perhaps it isn't. error handling is much more important, yeah. |
| 00:53:23
| <spion> | no, its enough to require a minimum set. then one can write code using the minimum set and get interoperability |
| 00:53:37
| <CrabDude> | in what way is error handling not specified by the spec? |
| 00:53:42
| <spion> | it is. |
| 00:53:58
| <spion> | I'm saying that I agree its more important than the types of asynchrony :) |
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| <spion> | though I'll need to take another, more through look at that tomorrow |
| 00:58:21
| <spion> | with a fresher brain |
| 00:59:50
| <CrabDude> | spion: Thanks. Really appreciate the eyes. |
| 01:00:16
| <spion> | a bit tired eyes. but I finally got why the type of asynchrony isn't important |
| 01:00:28
| <spion> | because you don't have to make a choice there, you can support a union :) |
| 01:00:28
| <CrabDude> | spion: Also, your "Analysis of generators and other async patterns in node" post was outstanding! |
| 01:00:34
| <spion> | with error handling choices must be made, one way or another |
| 01:00:41
| <spion> | thanks :D |
| 01:01:33
| <spion> | s/isn't important/isn't *that* important |
| 01:02:27
| <spion> | I wrote that promises are slow, |
| 01:02:34
| <spion> | and then petkaantonov wrote https://github.com/petkaantonov/bluebird |
| 01:03:02
| <spion> | a promise library with callback-level performance (that doesn't sacrifice exception safety!) |
| 01:03:02
| <CrabDude> | well, it'll ultimately be a moot point once they're in the language |
| 01:03:05
| <CrabDude> | err VM |
| 01:03:56
| <spion> | and he made it a moot point *now* :D |
| 01:06:19
| <CrabDude> | not really though because people aren't all using bluebird |
| 01:06:29
| <CrabDude> | promises are only comparable IF you use bluebird |
| 01:07:15
| <spion> | yes. its a bit early, since bluebird just got out about a 5 days ago |
| 01:07:21
| <spion> | -a |
| 01:08:07
| <CrabDude> | haha |
| 01:08:16
| <CrabDude> | sure, maybe everyone will adopt it as a core shim |
| 01:08:28
| <CrabDude> | that would actually make it a moot point |
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| <pkrumins> | browserling now also has the latest browsers, such as firefox 24, chrome 29 and opera 15! |
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| <rook2pawn> | wow even opera :-) |
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| <defunctzombie> | THE GOVERNMENT HAS SHUT DOWN!! |
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| <LOUDBOT> | I COULDN'T AGREE WITH HIM MORE, I COULDN'T DISAGREE, I, UH, UH, MY FELLOW PRISONERS |
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| <defunctzombie> | WE ARE ON OUR OWN! |
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| <LOUDBOT> | NECK YOU NEED TO STOP ALL THAT CHEWING! |
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| <niftylettuce> | can u test 4 me? micro project in a day https://wakeup.io |
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| <AvianPhone> | HELP LOUDBOT THIS TRAIN IS GOING UNDERGROUND |
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| <LOUDBOT> | WE PAY TUITION AND TAXES. THESE BUILDINGS ARE OURS ANYWAYS |
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| <jesusabdullah> | guys I don't like angular |
| 17:50:38
| <jesusabdullah> | I've decided this |
| 17:50:54
| <jesusabdullah> | that's it I'm writing a blog post about data binding and how it's usually not a good idea |
| 17:53:17
| <jesusabdullah> | haugalalguglgulaag |
| 17:54:24
| <Maciek416> | make sure to have the word "why" or "how" at the start of your title and post it on HN like, now |
| 17:54:54
| <mbalho> | 10 quick bikini clad reasons why data binding is a bad idea |
| 17:55:06
| <mbalho> | that get like 4 billion upvotes on hn |
| 17:56:17
| <jesusabdullah> | title: "The NowJS Problem: Or, Why Angular Isn't So Great" |
| 17:56:20
| <jesusabdullah> | working title ^^ |
| 17:56:48
| <jesusabdullah> | The NowJS Problem: Or, Why I Hate $scope.$watch |
| 17:57:14
| <jesusabdullah> | The NowJS Problem relates to an anecdote regarding nowjs, dnode and hook.io |
| 17:58:32
| <jesusabdullah> | IT WAS A DIFFERENT TIME |
| 17:58:32
| <LOUDBOT> | IF PAST TENSE OF HANG IS HANGED, DOES THAT MEAN YOU ARE HANGEDOVER? |
| 17:58:49
| <jesusabdullah> | IN A WORLD WHERE PEOPLE THINK THEY WANT SYNCHRONIZED DATA STRUCTURES |
| 17:58:49
| <LOUDBOT> | EVERYTHING IS EITHER COMPLETELY PRIVATE OR COMPLETELY PUBLIC |
| 17:59:03
| <jesusabdullah> | YOUR MOM IS COMPLETELY PUBLIC |
| 17:59:04
| <LOUDBOT> | THIS HAS BEEN A HORRIBLE MISTAKE |
| 17:59:11
| <jesusabdullah> | YES IT HAS LOUD BOT YES IT HAS |
| 17:59:12
| <LOUDBOT> | DON'T FLASH FROM A FLOPPY DISK!!!! |
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| <Maciek416> | jesus |
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| <AvianFlu> | jesusabdullah: SUPER DUPER REAL-TIME FRAMEWORK! UBER WEBSCALE ONE-SECOND POLLING INTERVAL! |
| 18:13:02
| <Maciek416> | github down = internet snow day |
| 18:13:18
| <Maciek416> | github down = CLASS OUTSIDE! |
| 18:14:01
| <spion> | jesusabdullah, looking forward to reading it, as I don't see why its not a good idea. |
| 18:22:45
| <jesusabdullah> | AvianFlu: It's a way tighter loop than that |
| 18:23:05
| <AvianFlu> | jesusabdullah: now.js used to have a one-second polling intervarl |
| 18:23:08
| <AvianFlu> | interval |
| 18:23:10
| <AvianFlu> | that was the joke |
| 18:23:15
| <jesusabdullah> | angular's is way tighter |
| 18:23:24
| <AvianFlu> | that's almost worse XD |
| 18:23:34
| <jesusabdullah> | like a sphincter at a prostate exam |
| 18:23:37
| <jesusabdullah> | *shudder* |
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