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00:02:59  <mikeal>dominictarr: pretty much every replication protocol pushes references to binary resources that get fetched seperately anyway
00:03:17  <mikeal>because you want enough info in the "feed" to decide whether or not you're gonna grab the binary
00:03:19  <dominictarr>you mean in a separate connection?
00:03:36  <mikeal>some duplex in the same connection, but most dont'
00:03:54  <mikeal>but almost nobody just says "send me all the binary as part of the metadata stream"
00:03:58  <dominictarr>right - first you have the handshake
00:04:06  <daleharvey>yeh some people do :)
00:04:06  <dominictarr>then you have the sync data,
00:04:12  <mikeal>so, this is what i'm getting at
00:04:14  <dominictarr>then sometimes the live data
00:04:22  <daleharvey>I have been pretty lazy with attachments in pouch so far though
00:04:32  <mikeal>if there is a simple protoocol for sending a "feed" of "entities" that can describe and stay up to date for different databases
00:04:46  <mikeal>we can break out the client/server portion in to re-usable modules by many databases
00:05:04  <mikeal>AND we can make additions to the format and protocol the suit the needs of differnet data models
00:05:25  <mikeal>which makes the task of writing indexes that work as secondary indexes across different data formats easy
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00:06:04  <dominictarr>I don't think you can abstract over all the ways to do replication, and all the data models that you might use with one protocol
00:06:29  <mikeal>daleharvey: the fact that multi-attachment write *requires* you to base64 in couchdb is the WORST
00:06:41  <mikeal>i'm not defining replication to that degree
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00:07:01  <dominictarr>mikeal: do you just mean the handshake, then?
00:07:04  <mikeal>dominictarr: i'm saying, we should even have the sequence id in there as part of the base client/server
00:07:09  <mikeal>should NOT
00:07:37  <mikeal>so, entities, have an `id` and a `data` property
00:07:37  <dominictarr>if you take that out, what is left?
00:08:00  <mikeal>the id could be a document identifier or just a commit hash or some other unique identifier about a change that should be applied
00:08:11  <mikeal>it doesn't have to even be something that is indexed as such in the datastore
00:08:18  <dominictarr>so what about "since" then?
00:08:38  <mikeal>since and seq are both an *extension*
00:08:40  <dominictarr>is is id the timestamp, and key,value is in the data
00:08:52  <mikeal>if you're keeping a sequence index, you should send seq and support since
00:09:01  <mikeal>dominictarr: whatever makes sense
00:09:18  <daleharvey>you dont need to base64, you can mutlipart (and I should really just be fetching seperately
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00:09:47  <mikeal>dominictarr: there has to be some kind of wire format for sending entities during replication
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00:10:06  <mikeal>i'm saying that we describe a base that works for everyone, and then just extend it with all the required properties we need to make sense
00:10:44  <mikeal>the whole point of which is, i can write an index that pulls from two totally different data formats/databases and normalizes the payloads without having to write two seperate clients
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00:11:15  <daleharvey>I do agree that it seems impossible to do this without since / seq
00:11:16  <mikeal>seq/since is an extension that works for couchup and a few others
00:11:32  <daleharvey>but if since / seq was the only part of the protocol, then that seems simple enough
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00:11:33  <mikeal>you're taking it for granted
00:11:43  <mikeal>at the base level, since/seq is an optimization
00:11:51  <mikeal>you could replicate without it, it would just take forever
00:12:02  <daleharvey>yeh
00:12:37  <mikeal>since/seq is the first extension
00:12:53  <mikeal>i'm going to write one called "lrev" for linear revisioning
00:13:17  <mikeal>there's one out there for crazy merkle tree replications
00:13:28  <mikeal>i *know* you could do a git replication with a few extensions
00:15:32  <mikeal>dominictarr: this is a good way to think about it
00:15:44  <mikeal>i'm writing an async map/reduce i need on top of couchup
00:16:06  <mikeal>but it doesn't really know about couchup, it just pulls the sleep feed
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00:16:34  <daleharvey>thats how pouch does it (and couch really)
00:16:39  <mikeal>if i want to add support for your new database I could just look for different properties in the sleep feed and normalize
00:17:03  <mikeal>daleharvey: exactly, couch's is really internal but it's totally secondary to the primary db
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00:17:26  <mikeal>i think it's a much saner and more modular way to write indexing
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00:17:47  <mikeal>and fits well in to the "many small modules" thing happening with node databases
00:18:55  <dominictarr>mikeal: what do you think of sublevel?
00:19:18  <daleharvey>its even in a plugins folder, I so dont want to be querying anything with couch map reduce, I just wrote it to make people happy
00:19:20  <dominictarr>you are kinda writing a different way of doing sublevel
00:19:41  <mikeal>i think it's great but yeah, i am doing it a little differently for a very small but important reason
00:20:06  <mikeal>if i cut up a database with bytewise and make the name the first element then i can control where things are sorted
00:20:26  <mikeal>which means i can prefix databases with [dbname, 0, ...
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00:20:38  <mikeal>and then i can write indexes that are [dbname, 3, ....
00:20:59  <mikeal>and i know that the writes/reads are going to be near each other even once i have thousands of databases
00:21:22  <dominictarr>if you put the indexes into nested sublevels you get the same property
00:21:58  <mikeal>right, but then there is a lot of coordination between the index module and the db module
00:22:26  <mikeal>instead, each module that creates a new index takes an integer
00:23:04  <mikeal>i'm thinking about switching to the module name instead of an integer tho
00:23:21  <dominictarr>if you remove an index, does it keep the same integer?
00:23:37  <mikeal>huh?
00:24:13  <dominictarr>like, if i have data, and then add indexA, then indexB
00:24:20  <dominictarr>then decide i didn't want indexA
00:24:32  <dominictarr>when I restart the process,
00:24:33  <mikeal>all the entries would get removed
00:24:45  <mikeal>no no no, each module is picking a static integer
00:24:54  <mikeal>which is why i'm saying i should probably move to the module name
00:25:00  <dominictarr>oh, which is a user argument?
00:25:22  <mikeal>no, the module name is static, so is the integer, only the name is user generated
00:25:32  <dominictarr>the db name?
00:25:37  <mikeal>or index name
00:25:44  <mikeal>but that is always the first thing in the array
00:26:05  <dominictarr>I meant, the index number - is the index number a user argument
00:26:10  <mikeal>if you're doing an index side by side with a database you should use the same name
00:26:19  <mikeal>if you're doing an index across many databases it doesn't really matter
00:26:31  <mikeal>dominictarr: not at the moment, no
00:26:50  <dominictarr>so, you are giving each module a static number?
00:26:52  <mikeal>i wonder how much of a perf hit it is to use the module string instead of an integer
00:26:55  <mikeal>yeah
00:26:58  <dominictarr>hardcoded?
00:26:59  <mikeal>probably not sustainable
00:27:13  <dominictarr>not if more than one person starts writing modules for couchup
00:27:25  <mikeal>yeah, maybe i should standardize on the module name
00:27:32  <mikeal>i was thinking of just keeping a list of them
00:27:38  <mikeal>not just couchup
00:27:49  <mikeal>couchup is only one module
00:27:52  <dominictarr>mikeal: I heard that leveldb has some optimisation that can skip common prefixes within a block of sst.
00:28:02  <mikeal>the indexes just use sleep, and i have a few other dbs that do similar things
00:28:12  <mikeal>nice
00:28:16  <mikeal>i'll move to the module name then
00:28:29  <dominictarr>so, I think you can have long prefixes with out a hit
00:28:40  <dominictarr>without much of one.
00:28:43  <dominictarr>at least.
00:29:15  <dominictarr>although, I havn't measured it.
00:30:00  <dominictarr>mikeal: please don't let me talk you into using sublevel - you are giving me lots of ideas on how to improve it by building a competing system!
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00:31:15  <mikeal>hahaha :)
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00:32:00  <mikeal>the main thing is, everything else i'm doing above this level requires me to cut up the database in to ordered slices with bytewise anyway
00:32:12  <mikeal>so, why not just use the same system to cut it up and the lower level
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00:39:09  <dominictarr>right - so you can represent any key as an array.
00:48:13  <daleharvey>heh I wish I found testling server before I started this, but I am invested now
00:49:01  <No9>mbalho just remembered I did a SLEEP implementation for mongodb about 6 months ago
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01:10:40  <daleharvey>any chance someone who isnt me could to a pull request against https://github.com/daleharvey/testing/ ?
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01:16:40  <mikeal>No9: does mongo have a sequence index?
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01:19:23  <chapel>mikeal: for id's? or what?
01:19:32  <No9>mikeal no I had to create a wrapper api so on CUD actions it also updated the SLEEP collections
01:19:38  <chapel>ah
01:20:28  <mikeal>yeah, it would have been easier if we had cut the seq requirement :)
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01:22:24  <No9>:) I looked at it for SQLServer too it would be very handy there as it already has most of it built in :)
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01:23:25  <No9>And so does oracle but I didn't get close to an implementation there
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01:45:41  <dominictarr>No9: mikeal, I heard, from the derby guys, that you can get a _changes feed from mongo
01:45:49  <dominictarr>it's not a public api
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01:45:59  <dominictarr>but you can parse the write ahead log...
01:46:25  <mikeal>right, but if they aren't actually storing a log of some sort you can't really make the seq represent a point in time that would be usable in replication
01:46:36  <mikeal>if it isn't indexed that is
01:46:39  <mikeal>maybe it is
01:46:48  <mikeal>postgres has one of these too
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01:51:26  <dominictarr>yeah, it depends on how the wal actually works.
01:51:56  <dominictarr>whether it includes a counter
01:54:58  <dominictarr>mbalho: just finished anathem
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02:17:47  <defunctzombie>ok
02:18:04  <defunctzombie>tj really needs to stop putting components on npm that can't possibly work.. this is a bit annoying now
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02:21:41  <mbalho>dominictarr: nice!
02:21:49  <mbalho>defunctzombie: lol like what?
02:21:58  <mbalho>defunctzombie: is he poisoning the well
02:22:02  <defunctzombie>popover-component or tip-component
02:22:11  <defunctzombie>they all have "require('emitter')"
02:22:17  <defunctzombie>but in deps install event-emitter
02:22:19  <defunctzombie>er
02:22:22  <defunctzombie>emitter-component
02:22:30  <defunctzombie>so you can't just browserify it
02:22:32  <mbalho>ah
02:22:38  <defunctzombie>cause he doesnt put a browser field either
02:22:57  <mbalho>yea i thoguht that was dumb, how they ahve their own NIH emitter
02:23:08  <defunctzombie>well, their emitter is leaner
02:23:10  <defunctzombie>for browser use
02:23:12  <defunctzombie>but whatever
02:23:17  <defunctzombie>just make it work or don't publish to npm
02:28:38  <dominictarr>there is no excuse for publishing stuff you know is broken to npm
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02:43:12  <defunctzombie>npm seriously needs to reject modules with no repository field
02:45:24  <jesusabdullah>or just don't care
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02:46:51  <defunctzombie>I care
02:46:55  <defunctzombie>I wan't the shit to be nice
02:47:06  <defunctzombie>if no one cares then nothing gets done
02:47:06  <jjjohnny_>who knkows the name of that wierd dimensional object which insides become its outsides?
02:47:55  <jjjohnny_>some crazy CS guy who cares about databases makes them out of glass...
02:48:09  <jjjohnny_>a mad scientist
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02:48:57  <defunctzombie>jjjohnny_: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klein_bottle
02:49:34  <jjjohnny_>defunctzombie: I LOVE U
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02:50:57  <jesusabdullah>yeah well
02:51:02  <jesusabdullah>not all modules are nice
02:51:05  <jesusabdullah>some modules are shitty
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02:51:08  <jesusabdullah>and that should be okay
02:52:05  <defunctzombie>jesusabdullah: shitty module is not hte same as completely fucking broken and could never have worked as is
02:52:12  <defunctzombie>why tolerate that?
02:52:21  <defunctzombie>it is a terrible experience for everyone
02:53:50  <jesusabdullah>how does throwing out a module with no repo field fix that though?
02:54:06  <jesusabdullah>and you tolerate it because you believe that curation is a net negative
02:54:11  <jesusabdullah>better to have good search
02:55:01  <defunctzombie>don't throw it out.. I said make it a requirement before publish
02:55:17  <jesusabdullah>"repository": "lol fuck you",
02:55:25  <defunctzombie>sure that is fine
02:55:28  <defunctzombie>but then we can report that module
02:55:32  <defunctzombie>and no one will do that
02:55:38  <defunctzombie>they will just remember to put the field
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02:55:44  <defunctzombie>cause right now it is easy to forget
02:56:57  <jesusabdullah>it doesn't throw up a big warning on publish?
02:57:07  <jesusabdullah>Right now it throws massive warnings for shit I've installed that I don't care about
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02:57:49  <defunctzombie>it should block on publish
02:57:52  <defunctzombie>then you will actually fix it
02:57:56  <defunctzombie>and publish for real
02:58:00  <defunctzombie>warnings are fucking useless
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03:02:38  <jesusabdullah>they're useful when they're relevant
03:02:55  * st_lukejoined
03:03:04  <jesusabdullah>sup st_luke
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03:19:03  <jesusabdullah>so
03:19:07  <jesusabdullah>apple ciders and junk food
03:19:09  <jesusabdullah>yea or nay
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03:21:34  <jesusabdullah>some help YOU are
03:21:41  <jesusabdullah>yea I say!
03:21:51  <jesusabdullah>I don't WANT roast chicken! >_<
03:22:10  <jesusabdullah>and I need to triage something
03:22:17  <jesusabdullah>:(
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10:58:22  <robertkowalski>daleharvey: done
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15:01:45  <dominictarr>hij1nx: I'm worried that pkp is too complex and coupled to packages directly
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15:02:06  <dominictarr>what about a thing that is just for signing objects in a database?
15:02:18  <dominictarr>which, can then be applied to packages.
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15:29:26  <juliangruber>dominictarr: that can be refactored into a seperate thing afterwards
15:30:11  <dominictarr>yes I suppose so
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19:16:46  <timoxley>substack: in case you weren't aware: substack.net is having some problems: http://www.downforeveryoneorjustme.com/http://substack.net/
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19:42:42  <substack>wow http://win-bash.sourceforge.net/ looks surprisingly good
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22:14:50  <jesusabdullah>substack: yeah been thinking about giving it a spin
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