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00:00:46  <mikolalysenko>but on the other hand I think it would be cool if the dependencies could be encoded directly in the script
00:00:52  <mikolalysenko>maybe you could do something totally crazy...
00:01:02  <mikolalysenko>like modify the require to take a version too:
00:01:11  <mikolalysenko>for example, require("foo", "~0.1.0")
00:01:19  <mbalho>yea i thougth abotu that
00:01:22  <mbalho>but didnt like it
00:01:33  <mikolalysenko>yeah, it defeats the spirit of compatibility...
00:01:42  <mbalho>i think a simple dependency editor UI is the best compromise
00:01:48  <mikolalysenko>probably
00:01:49  <mbalho>i did figure out some tricks building creator though
00:02:02  <mikolalysenko>though a full package.json has a lot of extraneous dependencies
00:02:07  <mbalho>like to support iframe embeds i cache the built bundle on gist
00:02:08  <mikolalysenko>or stuff in it I mean
00:02:21  <mbalho>mikolalysenko: yea just the dependencies field would be good i think
00:02:38  <mikolalysenko>also auto generating dependencies would be a nice feature too
00:02:41  <mbalho>yea
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00:02:56  <mikolalysenko>basically generate dependencies automatically unless the user clicks some advanced option
00:03:04  <mbalho>jesusabdullah: feature request for browserify cdn /multi: return version number of module
00:03:07  <mikolalysenko>since 99% of the time you won't want to fuck around with that stuff
00:03:35  <mbalho>yea but i think its important to make people realize that versions exist, but it should be easy to not care
00:03:45  <mikolalysenko>yeah
00:03:46  <jesusabdullah>mbalho: any particular "schema"?
00:03:53  <jesusabdullah>mbalho: cause right now it's
00:04:00  <jesusabdullah>"package": <blob>
00:04:21  <mbalho>jesusabdullah: "package": {bundle: <blob>, version: <version>}
00:04:25  <jesusabdullah>okay
00:04:35  <mbalho>jesusabdullah: or even the full package.json
00:04:40  <jesusabdullah>sounds good, gimme a bit gotta catch up with irl due to minecraft
00:04:44  <mbalho>jesusabdullah: haha
00:05:04  <jesusabdullah>mbalho: Yeah, just include "package.json" in the file?
00:05:56  <jesusabdullah>minecraft balance has changed a lot since I last played
00:05:57  <mbalho>jesusabdullah: "packagename": { bundle: <blob>, package: <package.json> }
00:06:01  <jesusabdullah>you basically have to farm now
00:06:03  <jesusabdullah>mbalho: aha
00:06:10  <mbalho>jesusabdullah: i think package.jsons are small enough that it doesnt matter
00:06:20  <jesusabdullah>mbalho: yeah, worst case strip the README
00:06:30  <jesusabdullah>mbalho: but there's some interesting stuff you can do with that anyway
00:06:54  <mbalho>jesusabdullah: oh yea kill readme probably
00:07:08  <Raynos>kumavis: making npm work in the browser would be godsend
00:07:37  <jesusabdullah>with the front-end for these multibundles it might almost be like that XD
00:08:29  <mikolalysenko>I don't know, readmes could be cool
00:08:31  <kumavis>my gist is 500 ing now
00:08:37  <mikolalysenko>for example you could get interactive help text for modules
00:09:00  <mikolalysenko>like you do: var ndarray = require("ndarray")
00:09:11  <mikolalysenko>and then mousover ndarray tells you about help text for ndarray
00:09:23  <mikolalysenko>or something like that
00:09:48  <jesusabdullah>yeah that was my thinking too mikolalysenko
00:09:57  <jesusabdullah>maybe keep 'em in until someone says it's too much
00:10:03  <mbalho>jesusabdullah: +1
00:10:11  <mikolalysenko>nah. if people don't want something on npm put it in .npmignore
00:10:13  <mbalho>another few kb wont matter
00:10:21  <mikolalysenko>it isn't the cdn's repsonsibility to figure that stuff out
00:10:57  <mikolalysenko>that's what I do now anyway. no extraneous test cases/examples/images on npm
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00:14:45  <kumavis>raynos im glad you enjoyed that read
00:14:59  <kumavis>i should have continued writing it down
00:15:44  <kumavis>raynos one problem i had was that the first thing npm wants to do is download a 20mg index of npm's available modules
00:15:56  <jesusabdullah>okay, I'll try to do this today
00:15:57  <Raynos>:)
00:16:02  <jesusabdullah>hopefully set aside minecrack
00:16:06  <kumavis>but in the end i did get searches working
00:16:16  <kumavis>so i could do npm search
00:16:16  <Raynos>miko: have you seen tryme?
00:18:09  <mikolalysenko>no
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00:40:17  <chapel>what are your recommendations for templates? strictly focusing on node.js server side at the moment
00:41:01  <jesusabdullah>uhhh
00:41:05  <jesusabdullah>something mustache-esque?
00:41:39  <chapel>well, we are using handlebars atm, but Im not a fan
00:42:02  <chapel>having partial/import/block like behavior would be nice
00:42:35  <substack>I just use html
00:42:47  <chapel>substack: we all can't be substack :P
00:43:05  <substack>chapel: http://github.com/substack/node-trumpet
00:45:25  <chapel>yeah, I am familiar with that, though not what the direction I want to go
00:45:40  <mikolalysenko>you could just use a regular expression
00:46:06  <mikolalysenko>or split into strings, then call array.join("")
00:46:30  <kumavis> substack do you make your own logos/illustrations ?
00:46:54  <mbalho>substack.net/images
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00:52:19  <shama>chapel: ejs is good then you dont need to learn a new template language
00:52:41  <shama>its javascript
00:52:43  <chapel>shama: I am familiar with a lot of template languages/engines
00:53:06  <chapel>ejs, jade, handlebars, mustache, jqtmpl and so on
00:53:35  <chapel>was just seeing what people might recommend, since I haven't been keeping up on everything
00:54:04  <shama>oh cool... my recommendation is ejs :)
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01:15:28  <jesusabdullah>I mean, for all the cool toys out there, I just go with what's boring, hacky, and works
01:15:33  <jesusabdullah>it's that or marak's "html"
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01:27:01  <rvagg>I'm a fan of swig at the moment
01:27:10  <rvagg>http://paularmstrong.github.com/swig/docs/
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01:41:10  <dominictarr>creationix: https://github.com/charliesome/jsos < there is a js vim in here, that could be pulled out
01:41:20  <dominictarr>for the light weight js project
01:44:35  <thl0_>trying very hard to stay out of the ongoing twitter browserify vs amd fight
01:44:43  <thl0_>that guy is so clueless
01:45:09  <thl0_>if his clientside workflow doesn't include npm he'll have not much of a future ;)
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01:49:57  <jden>Blaine's a nice guy, though
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01:51:00  <thl0>jden: he looks happy and nice in the pic -- well nothing personal it's just a tool discussion, but he shows lots of ignorance while parttaking ;)
01:51:36  <jden>thlo: on another note, you're right - nodebots is a major time sink :)
01:51:42  <jden>thl0: ^
01:51:56  <thl0>jden: told ya - working on the chess game idea yet?
01:52:26  <jden>no, looking at cheaper hardware. drones are spendy!
01:52:40  <thl0>yep you'd need 32
01:52:46  <jden>doing a nodebotsday south bay now
01:52:54  <thl0>I saw that - nice!
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01:54:05  <thl0>I'm working on bromote, so people who want to do that can require remote scripts with browserify
01:54:42  <thl0>jden: until you can do everything w/ browserify that requirejs can, there will be lame excuses ;)
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01:56:48  <mbalho>this twitter discussion has me realizing that there needs to be better explanations of why build steps are better
01:57:03  <mbalho>e.g. node_modules trees
01:57:11  <mbalho>and the npm resolution algorithm
01:57:14  <mbalho>and semver etc etc etc etc
01:58:32  <jden>people get tripped up on node_modules
01:58:58  <mbalho>the name or the concept
01:59:05  <jden>the name
01:59:33  <mbalho>that is a pretty silly thing to raise issue about
01:59:55  <mbalho>even if you disagree with the definition of 'modules that you will use node to package' its still a bike shed
02:00:20  <jden>for sure - and I agree it's silly.
02:00:32  <jden>but ultimately it's what a lot of the arguments I've heard come down to
02:00:44  <mbalho>but i guess component was basically a NIH of npm based on similar superficial differences in opinion
02:00:58  <jden>yep
02:01:13  <mbalho>but the superficiality of it is what motivates me to make it more clear
02:01:19  <mbalho>i think its a communication problem
02:01:33  <mbalho>the people that get it get it and dont help people who cant get it on their own get it
02:05:04  <jden>yes - I think this twitter thread would be a good basis for drawing "requirements" to cover in a how-to:
02:05:14  <jden>watch, live-reload, etc
02:06:19  <mbalho>pretty much all they said was they load modules in a browser cause its faster and doesnt kill their SSD
02:06:30  <mbalho>and assumed build steps are slow and kill their SSD
02:06:59  <mbalho>soooo i honestly dont understand what the benefit of client side workflows are other than you dont have to install something like node
02:07:27  <mbalho>but i'd like to see someone make a list of benefits that browserify + npm offers
02:07:37  <mbalho>and then someone make a list in response for client side workflows
02:07:41  <mbalho>to see if there is some other advantage
02:11:01  <thl0>mbalho: I think in general better documentation and example workflows including modules that help you with it would be nice
02:11:11  <jcrugzz>moar blogposts
02:11:40  <thl0>mbalho: right now there is a lot out there that will help you solve certain problems with browserify, but it's not trivial to find
02:11:41  <mbalho>there are some good resources in voxel.js land
02:11:57  <thl0>jcrugzz: I'm thinking of something more centralized
02:12:24  <thl0>like a wiki or something: here is how to do A and here is how to do B ...
02:12:53  <thl0>mbalho: would be nice to link those on the browserify.org site
02:13:18  <jcrugzz>thl0: yea organizing the chaos of node_modules and npm is kind of interesting.
02:13:18  <jden>maybe collect the articles on http://browserify.org/articles
02:13:27  <jcrugzz>mbahlo: isnt that kind of the goal of your art of ndoe to an extent?
02:13:44  <mbalho>jcrugzz: yea im working on the modules section now
02:14:00  <thl0>jden: yeah, we made an attempt, substack had me commit to it, but his deploy thing failed, so my post never got cross posted
02:14:00  <mbalho>jcrugzz: but more blog posts and tools and screencasts and talks etc are good too
02:14:41  <jcrugzz>awesome :D. and yea, I need to actually get back into putting words into more .md files
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02:15:17  <jcrugzz>i feel like part of the issue is that all the people that understand things are too busy or cannot allocate the time to write what they know
02:15:23  <jcrugzz>or make it cohesive enough for a post
02:15:25  <mbalho>yep
02:15:46  <isaacs>OMG YOU GUYZ YOU KNOW MOR STARTED UP AGAIN???
02:15:47  <LOUDBOT>HELLO! DID YOU MISS ME?
02:15:56  <isaacs>LOUDBOT: YES, I TOTLALY DID!
02:15:56  <LOUDBOT>isaacs: SIR! CAN YOU CONFIRM YOUR DEATH?
02:15:57  <mbalho>isaacs: wat is MOR
02:16:05  <isaacs>mbalho: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
02:16:13  <isaacs>mbalho: probably the best fantasy series ever.
02:16:18  <isaacs>mbalho: you are in for a TREAT
02:16:22  <jcrugzz>ive never even heard of that
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02:16:26  <isaacs>jcrugzz: OMG!
02:16:28  <jcrugzz>this is interesting
02:16:45  <isaacs>http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5782108
02:17:15  <substack>thl0: it's actually posted in the json :(
02:17:30  <substack>but I haven't updated the rendering on browserify.org to show it
02:17:37  <substack>it's a JSONStream bug of all things
02:17:49  <thl0>substack: cool - we'll just point the people to read that - they should be able to if they are js devs ;)
02:18:11  <substack>http://browserify.org/blog.json?inline=html
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02:18:39  <mbalho>i use html for websites
02:18:41  <mbalho>it works pretty good
02:18:57  <jcrugzz>isaacs: this sounds quite entertaining
02:19:24  <isaacs>mbalho: ++
02:19:26  <jcrugzz>see we need more of this knowledge spreading thing going on
02:19:29  <isaacs>yeah, html is da bomb for websites
02:19:38  <substack>mbalho: I built it before I had libs that would let me stream html into other html
02:19:39  <thl0>substack: well forget it the images aren't rendering in the json, besides that it's totally readable ;)
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02:45:38  <shama>mbalho: scroll down and read the "update" part of this post section: http://dontkry.com/posts/code/browserify-and-the-universal-module-definition.html#universal-access
02:46:52  <shama>I think when he pointed it out he didnt realize I copied it from their examples :)
03:01:43  <mikolalysenko>all this talk about modules reminds me of the last time I tried to write about it....
03:01:46  <mikolalysenko>http://www.reddit.com/r/webdev/comments/17332s/commonjs_why_and_how/
03:02:18  <mikolalysenko>I learned my lesson and decided that I won't try picking that fight again at least until I have some cool demo to get people's attention
03:02:26  <mikolalysenko>I think browserify as a service could do it though
03:03:46  <mikolalysenko>I did get some helpful replies like this though.... https://github.com/schell/mod >__<
03:06:09  <mikolalysenko>I am embarrassed to say I didn't know what to say to that guy, since I didn't want to say anything mean spirited...
03:06:29  <substack>people aren't punished for being wrong
03:06:37  <substack>except by physics
03:06:58  <substack>but people don't pay very much attention to physics
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03:21:32  <mikeal>rvagg && dominictarr: i wrote that mutex we were talking about
03:21:40  <mikeal>it's generic as well
03:21:55  <mikeal>right now i'm replacing the mutex in couchup with it
03:22:13  <mikeal>once i'm sure it works and all my tests are passing i'll publish it as its own module
03:22:21  <dominictarr>mikeal: sweet!
03:22:57  <mikeal>it currently doesn't do read streams, because i'm not entirely sure what you would want the semantics to be
03:23:00  <mikeal>but it does do peek
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03:59:22  <rvagg>mikeal: well remember that read streams work off a snapshot of the whole db that's created when you call createReadStream()
03:59:31  <rvagg>mikeal: so it might be pretty easy to support
04:00:10  <rvagg>mikeal: the only catch is that the snapshot isn't actually created until the readstream starts.. this might be a bit awkward
04:00:50  <mikeal>rvagg: right, but in that case you don't really *need* the mutex
04:01:11  <rvagg>aye
04:01:15  <mikeal>what i'm worried about is people thinking that the mutex insures a lock until the stream ends
04:01:29  <mikeal>which it does
04:01:40  <mikeal>and never will, cause you just shouldn't write that :)
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04:49:06  <mbalho>how the effing eff is this available https://npmjs.org/nodule
04:49:17  <mbalho>especially given https://twitter.com/JohnInnesCentre/status/352358825157865472
04:50:42  <jcrugzz>mbahlo: i dont even
04:50:59  <jcrugzz>bio wasnt quite my cup of tea
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05:43:24  <timoxley>dominictarr easy way to query the npm db via npmd programatically/jsonally?
05:44:10  <dominictarr>you'll have to write a plugin for that...
05:44:15  <dominictarr>or maybe use lev?
05:45:33  <dominictarr>timoxley: what information do you want to get out?
05:46:40  <timoxley>dominictarr there's probably a way to do it with regular npm but I want all the readmes.
05:47:24  <rvagg>include_docs=true
05:47:31  <rvagg>ugly ugly ugly, but you get it all
05:48:44  <timoxley>rvagg querying the main npm db directly?
05:48:51  <rvagg>mm
05:49:00  <dominictarr>timoxley: that is simple with npmd
05:49:17  <timoxley>sweet
05:49:37  <dominictarr>db.sublevel('pkg').createReadStream().on('data', function (data) { console.log(data.value.readme } )
05:49:46  <timoxley>ahh
05:49:49  <timoxley>nice
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05:51:13  <mbalho>rvagg: haha its not ugly, its just an array of objects
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05:52:37  <timoxley>dominictarr so this would be a plugin?
05:52:59  <timoxley>how about something like require('npmd').db.etc.etc.magic()
05:53:17  <dominictarr>hmm
05:53:31  <dominictarr>that stuff hasn't solidified yet
05:53:55  <dominictarr>it could be something like that though...
05:54:02  <timoxley>ok, for now i'll just vim `which npmd`
05:54:27  <dominictarr>oh -- also, you can connect to npmd remotely
05:54:34  <dominictarr>as it uses multilevel
05:54:39  <timoxley>gotcha
05:54:44  <timoxley>nice.
06:02:11  <dominictarr>timoxley: hmm, should make a command to get the readme for any module...
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07:23:59  <dominictarr>npmd users! you can use npmd link module@version to install really really fast
07:24:06  <dominictarr>in npmd@0.6.0
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08:11:44  <Kessler>jesusabdullah: ping :)
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08:27:53  <jesusabdullah>sup Kessler
08:27:56  <jesusabdullah>AvianFlu: you're still up? :O
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08:54:07  <jesusabdullah>nd was pretty cool but russfrank disappeared off the face of the planet so
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14:43:03  <mikolalysenko>what is a good short argument that you can give against component?
14:43:33  <mikolalysenko>the biggest case I can think of is that component is unnecessary and case of not-invented-here syndrome
14:43:45  <mikolalysenko>and that npm has more modules total than component
14:44:10  <mikolalysenko>but these are kind of vague network effects
14:44:46  <guybrush>tj tried to solve the "namespace-problem" which i think is valid but not worth splitting the entire eco-system
14:45:22  <guybrush>you have already git in npm, even with short-links for github
14:45:29  <mikolalysenko>I mean technically speaking it is pretty much the same thing as commonjs/npm
14:45:40  <mikolalysenko>except different for the sake of being different
14:45:50  <guybrush>which is a good thing
14:45:57  <mikolalysenko>well, maybe
14:46:14  <mikolalysenko>I like diversity of software and libraries, but I dislike unnecessary fragmentation of language ecosystems
14:46:21  <guybrush>its like talking about all the streams
14:46:24  <mikolalysenko>it just makes for a lot of pointless hassle
14:46:32  <mikolalysenko>I am staying the hell out of streams right now
14:46:36  <guybrush>i think its a good thing to have multiple things that do kinda the same thing :)
14:47:10  <guybrush>and its not so hard to use components with browserify
14:47:14  <mikolalysenko>yeah
14:47:47  <mikolalysenko>but I guess if someone asks me why they should switch from component to npm, I'd like to have a short answer
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14:49:09  <guybrush>so for me, i go with npm because all the packages i really like are in npm/browserify-packages
14:49:25  <guybrush>if there were lots of componotent-packages i use all the time i would switch maybe
14:49:49  <guybrush>with browserify you can access all the modules that have been written so far
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14:50:02  <guybrush>for free
14:50:55  <guybrush>with component you get some "private namespace" but its not compatible with alle the other modules, at least its not free
14:51:28  <guybrush>so its a nobrainer for me :D also i used browserify long before components
14:53:15  <mikolalysenko>yeah, but I mean you can still do git repos in npm...
14:53:25  <mikolalysenko>so it isn't like the private namespace thing is that big a deal
14:54:08  <mikolalysenko>anyway, it is maybe silly to argue npm vs component on technical merits since component is basically a clone of npm for all practical purposes
14:54:24  <mikolalysenko>though not as mature, and with far fewer modules
14:54:33  <mikolalysenko>and a branding campaign to make it "browser exclusive"
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15:05:53  <guybrush>note: there is also bower
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15:08:22  <guybrush>anyway, it really doesnt matter sooo much in the end i think - very usefull and good modules will be available in all the "branches" of the eco-system
15:09:07  <guybrush>there will be people who spend time to make sure it works
15:10:20  <mikolalysenko>well, where it becomes tricky is with dependencies
15:10:31  <mikolalysenko>it makes sense to share functionality between modules
15:10:40  <mikolalysenko>and more ecosystems = more fragile dependencies
15:10:46  <mikolalysenko>and this is in my opinion a bad thing
15:12:31  <guybrush>ok, but in the end its only the dev-toolchain
15:14:54  <guybrush>actually im not sure, i dont have an opinion on what is better
15:15:00  <guybrush>its like vim and emcas somehow..
15:15:21  <guybrush>you cant emacs-plugins in vim
15:15:27  <guybrush>and the other way arround
15:16:00  <guybrush>so what do you tell someone why vim is better than emacs
15:16:35  <guybrush>there are for sure some arguments for vim but the same is true for emacs
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15:19:48  <guybrush>tj publishes a lot of modules as component && npm
15:20:11  <guybrush>jade for example even uses browserify
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17:11:01  <dominictarr>I am wondering about a bittorrent like protocol, but optimized for smaller files
17:11:13  <dominictarr>I mean; a small file should be a fast turn around
17:11:42  <dominictarr>if the file is only < 100k then all you should need to retrive it is it's hash.
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17:20:57  <mikolalysenko>small files probably don't need bittorrent though
17:21:06  <mikolalysenko>you can just store them in a dht or something like that
17:21:10  <mikolalysenko>and access them directly
17:24:34  <dominictarr>hmm, yes.
17:25:16  <dominictarr>hmm, so in bit torrent, you have a layer that routes to the files you are looking for
17:25:40  <dominictarr>but in a dht, you skip that, and just put the files where the routing layer would be.
17:26:02  <mikolalysenko>pretty much. though most dhts assume all clients are trusted
17:26:11  <mikolalysenko>not sure if that is valid in a bittorrent like environment
17:26:21  <dominictarr>no
17:26:58  <mikolalysenko>though this isn't really my specialty, so maybe I don't have the best advice here
17:27:09  <dominictarr>so you could just make bittorrent a dht, since the flies are split into pieces, and each piece is small
17:28:05  <dominictarr>mikolalysenko: the sybil attack is the greatest unsolved problem in p2p
17:29:24  <jjjohnny_>dominictarr: solution, blockchain
17:29:58  <thl0>Raynos: substack mbalho I put a big warning on the repo: https://github.com/thlorenz/bromote/blob/master/README.md#disclaimer
17:30:26  <thl0>to ensure people know that loading a script from a url is a big No No
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17:31:12  <dominictarr>jjjohnny_: that is a rather heavy duty approach.
17:31:43  <dominictarr>it's warranted in bitcoin. but there has to be more than one way to do it.
17:31:50  <jjjohnny_>dominictarr: its either that or some "Central Authority"
17:32:02  <dominictarr>there are more than 2 ways
17:32:30  <jjjohnny_>100x redundancy?
17:32:36  <dominictarr>there are human systems that exist without a central authority
17:32:49  <dominictarr>so, computer systems should be possible too.
17:33:41  <jjjohnny_>those must operate with a lot of trust
17:33:44  <dominictarr>essentially… the aim is to create a system where what can be gained from lying isn't worth the effort.
17:33:49  <dominictarr>jjjohnny_: exactly.
17:34:00  <dominictarr>the question is about how is trust built and maintained.
17:35:25  <jjjohnny_>thru a block chain of trust
17:35:41  <jjjohnny_>a leveldb of trust
17:35:59  <jjjohnny_>you sink to the bottom level the more you are trusted
17:37:17  <jjjohnny_>the implementation of a trust network seems as dificult as a block chain
17:37:32  <jjjohnny_>with more trial and error
17:37:44  <jjjohnny_>like how much trust does a transaction result in
17:38:31  <jjjohnny_>how do you quantize trust, increase or decrease it, etc
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17:38:58  <jjjohnny_>trust through tests
17:39:15  <jjjohnny_>random system tests
17:39:28  <dominictarr>so, one thing that might work,
17:39:51  <dominictarr>look at it ilke this
17:40:14  <dominictarr>when you send a message to a node, you are asking it to do something for you
17:40:18  <dominictarr>or to tell you something
17:40:51  <dominictarr>how do you tell if it's done that thing that is in the public (network's) interest
17:41:09  <dominictarr>or in it's own narrow interest?
17:41:18  <jjjohnny_>that seems highly subjective
17:41:48  <jjjohnny_>a node should have a specific function
17:42:01  <jjjohnny_>maybe nodes in the network are like modules
17:42:06  <dominictarr>well, the public interest is basically just telling the truth.
17:42:06  <jjjohnny_>they each do specific things
17:42:33  <jjjohnny_>that would make an individual node easy to test
17:42:45  <jjjohnny_>you have to come up with what would fail a truth test
17:42:49  <dominictarr>welll, I don't think that is righm
17:43:09  <dominictarr>say, in bitcoin, many nodes are miners
17:43:12  <dominictarr>or wallets
17:43:17  <dominictarr>they are all the same
17:43:34  <jjjohnny_>you dont have to mine to be a wallet
17:43:39  <dominictarr>in a dht, all nodes store values… that is the same job too
17:44:31  <dominictarr>jjjohnny_: that is true
17:45:16  <jjjohnny_>you dont need the blockchain to be a BC user
17:46:02  <dominictarr>you do if you want to operate a p2p node.
17:46:07  <jjjohnny_>the blockchain is a truth system after all
17:46:19  <dominictarr>everyone can validate the blockchain
17:50:15  <jjjohnny_>dominictarr: a node can only be trusted for a time
17:50:42  <jjjohnny_>because a node which has gained lots of trust points could get hacked and taken over
17:50:46  <dominictarr>well, sure, you arn't gonna trust everyone forever just because they tipped you well one time
17:51:25  <jjjohnny_>ergo node tests
17:52:39  <dominictarr>yeah, so, that is a good example
17:52:48  * mmckeggpart
17:52:59  <dominictarr>if a node tells you that a given test passes or fails
17:53:26  <dominictarr>that is something you mightn't want to check your self, because of the cost of running all the tests
17:55:56  <jjjohnny_>the network system should have tests built in
17:57:00  <jjjohnny_>and perform them as routine
17:58:30  <jjjohnny_>IVE GOT THIS RANDOM ROUTINE
17:58:32  <LOUDBOT>YOU FOOL! DO NOT INSULT THE TURTLES FOR THEY CARRY THE BURDEN OF THE PLANET IN AN INFINITE REGRESS, WHEREAS YOU CAN'T EVEN MANAGE A SINGLE PLANET-CARRYING ITERATION.
17:59:37  <dominictarr>jjjohnny_: so, one way you could do it, is to test redundently
18:00:07  <dominictarr>like, asking someone for directions when you already know the way
18:00:40  <dominictarr>if they give you the wrong directions, then you know they have either lied, or are mistaken
18:00:55  <mikolalysenko>or you can also just trust the machines, and hope it works
18:01:06  <mikolalysenko>that is acceptable I think in a server farm
18:01:29  <dominictarr>well, in that case, there are out of band trust systems
18:01:43  <mikolalysenko>yeah
18:01:57  <mikolalysenko>I think it is one of those research black holes from which there is no easy solution
18:02:06  <Raynos>the sybil attack is no joke :(
18:02:10  <dominictarr>basically, the organization that owns the servers are legal entities and there are courts
18:02:11  <mikolalysenko>for example in games, I think the easiest way to do networking is to just trust all the clients
18:02:49  <dominictarr>the answer lies in game theory, I think.
18:03:28  <mikolalysenko>maybe.
18:04:06  <dominictarr>you'll never get a definitive answer, though, but you can probably get a probability that a node is honest
18:04:07  <mikolalysenko>not sure how it would help actually, though it is not something I am necessarily super interested in right now
18:04:41  <mikolalysenko>what I have been kind of mulling over in the back of my mind for a while is how to build robust and scalable networked games
18:04:52  <dominictarr>well, game theory allows you to model whether a player is incentivised to cooperate or defect
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18:05:56  <mikolalysenko>maybe, though in a video game you can safely assume all players are attackers
18:06:04  <dominictarr>mikolalysenko: don't get be wrong - as important as the question is, there are still many systems that can be build with a less than perfect system
18:07:49  <mikolalysenko>yeah, though in network games it is still an unsolved problem I think to build a general flexible/scalable architecture for many players
18:08:14  <mikolalysenko>the bigger problem than people hacking is really lag
18:08:40  <mikolalysenko>also in a game with a central authority, you can always just ban players that cheat or do exploitative things
18:08:43  <mikeal>so
18:08:55  <mikeal>in levelup, when you do reverse, you need to reverse the start and end keys?
18:12:40  <mikolalysenko>it sounds horrible, but in games I think that one possible solution might be to build some kind of model view controller layer. where you replicate the model and do local predictions and stuff on it
18:13:08  <mikolalysenko>though doing this without spiralling off into architecture astronaut land is difficult
18:18:19  <dominictarr>mikeal: originally it was like that
18:18:25  <substack>mikolalysenko: why do you need the view and controller part?
18:18:28  <dominictarr>but we realized that was really confusing
18:18:54  <substack>just replicate the state to run the simulation forward in 2 places
18:19:01  <dominictarr>so, start, end denote the range, and reverse=bool just describes the direction.
18:19:16  <dominictarr>just trying to remember if it's fixed in levelup yet...
18:19:28  <mikolalysenko>substack: that's fine for non-realtime games, but too slow for interactive stuff
18:19:45  <mikolalysenko>substack: you need some way to apply local prediction and correction mechanisms
18:19:58  <dominictarr>I think that one is still coming… because we where figuring out how to also support exclusive/inclusive
18:20:11  <mikeal>it makes sense
18:20:13  <dominictarr>there is an issue discussing this, and we have consensus
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18:20:22  <mikeal>it's just the opposite of couchdb so it took me a while to figure it out :)
18:20:29  <mikolalysenko>substack: I actually tried doing that idea, just push the model over, but it ran into a performance wall and I dropped it
18:20:36  <mikolalysenko>even using stuff like diffing/patching was too slow
18:21:07  <dominictarr>I was trying to implement it, but it involves changing leveldown, and C++ just drives me to drink.
18:21:19  <mikolalysenko>you need a system where at least part of the state, like client movement, etc. is simulated locally and the other part is simulated remotely
18:22:12  <dominictarr>mikeal: we are gonna switch from start, end to gt, lt, gte, lte (>, <, >=, <=)
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18:22:47  <mikolalysenko>substack: otherwise you have big latencies, like you press a key and maybe 300 ms later you actually move
18:23:30  <mikeal>interesting
18:23:45  <mikolalysenko>combined with the fact that there is a like a 60ms latency built in to input due to the way most browsers work anyway...
18:24:10  <mikolalysenko>it can make things like fps games pretty much unplayable
18:25:06  <mikolalysenko>substack: it also gets worse when you add in stuff like physics elements which need to respond to player motions in real time too.
18:28:22  <dominictarr>mikeal: normally humans specify ranges with an inclusive minimum and an exclusive max.
18:29:28  <dominictarr>like, you can buy alcohol if you are >= 18 (in enlightened nations)
18:30:05  <dominictarr>and maximums are more often exclusive
18:30:37  <dominictarr>like only vehicles < 3.4 metres can get under this bridge
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18:51:30  <mikeal>dominictarr: https://github.com/mikeal/level-mutex
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18:55:30  <mikeal>i moved all of couchup to it, so it's gotten some decent testing
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19:09:05  <creationix>dominictarr, the difference is ages are special
19:09:16  <creationix>we say we're still 18 when we're 18.99 years old
19:09:37  <creationix>but we don't say we're 3.4 meters tall if we're 3.499 meters tall
19:10:11  <dominictarr>mikeal: is this using the technique you described at the meetup?
19:10:34  <creationix>(also if you're 3.4 meters tall, you're probably not human)
19:10:34  <mikeal>dominictarr: yup :)
19:10:38  <mikeal>all reads, then all writes
19:10:42  <dominictarr>creationix: another example is " you have to be at least this high to ride the roller coaster)
19:10:47  <mikeal>insured ordered return of the reads
19:11:31  <mikeal>the nice thing about it is that you just use (more of less) the normal levelup api
19:11:39  <mikeal>with stuff like peek added
19:11:51  <mikeal>it doesn't care about the keyspace or anything like that
19:12:24  <mikeal>so you can create any number of arbitrary mutexes around parts of your database you want to enforce read/write transactional locking on
19:13:36  <mikeal>i have one around every couchup "database" of which there could be thousands in one levelup store, and i have another mutex around the store's metadata which is basically just a list of databases, so that you can't try to create a database of the same name while one is being written
19:13:45  <mikeal>it's super simple
19:13:55  <mikeal>and i'm not convinced it is a real performance hit
19:14:15  <mikeal>it *might* be if you need one mutex around your entire levelup store, but that's pretty rare
19:14:31  <mikeal>you get the benefit of batching all the write operations too
19:14:58  <mikeal>and you still parallelize the actual reads, it just insures that the callbacks for them return in same order they were sent
19:15:22  <mikeal>and since we don't allow any writes in between those reads, you are insured that they all relate to the same snapshot
19:19:34  <guybrush>hmm i dont get sourcemaps working with the latest browserify, is this a known issue or just my fault?
19:21:13  <substack>guybrush: are you using chrome?
19:21:17  <guybrush>yes
19:21:26  <substack>you probably need to explicitly enable them
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19:23:14  <guybrush>with browserify@~1.17 it works
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19:23:59  <guybrush>well if it works for you i have to look into my stuff what im doing wrong
19:24:31  <substack>enable source maps in chrome
19:28:03  <guybrush>oh in canary it works
19:28:19  <guybrush>i just dont find the flag/setting what ever in chrom stable
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19:33:16  <substack>https://pressfreedomfoundation.org/whitepapers/encryption-works-how-protect-your-privacy-age-nsa-surveillance
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19:34:30  <guybrush>ahh i found it
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21:35:48  <venportman>hey stackvm, I have a problem you might be able to help out with. I'm using Bouncy to route traffic between my Node.js nodes, which has been wonderful. Except now I have a story on the front page of hacker news, and bouncy keeps crashing on me every five minutes.
21:36:01  <venportman>Getting this error: events.js:71
21:36:01  <venportman> throw arguments[1]; // Unhandled 'error' event
21:36:01  <venportman> ^
21:36:01  <venportman>Error: accept EMFILE
21:36:01  <venportman> at errnoException (net.js:770:11)
21:36:01  <venportman> at TCP.onconnection (net.js:1018:24)
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21:36:44  <venportman>substack: you around?
21:36:52  <pkrumins>we've this same problem in production
21:37:11  <venportman>I've had a similar problem with nodejitsu's http router
21:37:22  * yorick_changed nick to yorick
21:37:36  <venportman>so don't necessarily want to switch back to it. But also have to keep my site up, because I'm getting bombed on hn.
21:40:25  <mbalho>https://github.com/ryanj/nodejs-custom-version-openshift#nodejs-on-openshift
21:40:42  <venportman>Thought of a solution: dedicated server for evbogue.com running just one node at port 80
21:40:52  <substack>venportman: what are your ulimits?
21:41:02  <substack>`ulimit -a`
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21:41:40  <substack>EMFILE means you've got too many open file descriptors
21:41:43  <venportman>Oh, I see what's going on. I'm on hn not once but twice.
21:42:02  <venportman>I'm not sure what you mean by ulimits.
21:42:06  <substack>type
21:42:07  <substack>ulimit -a
21:42:10  <venportman>k
21:42:28  <substack>actually ulimit -n
21:42:37  <substack>that's the number of open files you can have
21:42:40  <pkrumins>this is what we've for testling:
21:42:41  <pkrumins>$ ulimit -n
21:42:41  <venportman>results: http://hastebin.com/qeqawireca.hs
21:42:41  <pkrumins>1024
21:42:48  <substack>!!
21:42:54  <substack>pkrumins: that's really, really small
21:43:21  <pkrumins>crap
21:43:29  <substack>venportman: configure a higher ulimit
21:43:40  <venportman>how do I do this? ulimit -n 1024?
21:43:42  <substack>/etc/security/limits.conf
21:43:44  <venportman>k
21:44:30  <substack>I have my laptop set to 64000
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21:46:50  <venportman>do I need to reboot for this to work?
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21:47:03  <substack>you need a new login shell for the changes to take effect
21:47:13  <venportman>k
21:47:32  <venportman>problem might have been there was no ulimit set for my username
21:48:48  <venportman>this is right, right? http://hastebin.com/bagixeqata.vala
21:50:21  <substack>s/core/nofile/
21:51:05  <substack>might as well set soft to the same thing, otherwise you'll need to run another command to bring your shell up to the limit
21:51:19  <substack>hard/soft is the stupidest thing
21:51:44  <pkrumins>[testling@testling ~]$ ulimit -n
21:51:45  <pkrumins>64000
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21:53:22  <venportman>substack: would you be willing to pastebin what the config should be? brain isn't computing under strain from hn.
21:53:34  <substack>pkrumins: \o
21:53:41  <pkrumins>venportman:
21:53:42  <pkrumins>testling hard nofile 64000
21:53:42  <pkrumins>testling soft nofile 64000
21:53:46  <pkrumins>substack: o/
21:53:50  <venportman>k
21:53:53  <pkrumins>venportman: add those two lines to that file
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21:53:58  <venportman>gracias
21:53:59  <pkrumins>just replace testling with your username
21:54:02  <pkrumins>np
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21:55:34  <venportman>created new ssh session, ulimit still at 1024
21:55:53  <venportman>rebooting
21:55:55  <venportman>see if that helps
21:56:51  <mbalho>what should i call my jsfiddle for npm
21:56:53  <mbalho>trynpm.com is available
21:57:31  <venportman>for some reason ulimit isn't changing when I change config file :/
21:59:31  <venportman>I'm going to do the dedicated server thing I think.
22:00:53  * jesusabd1llahchanged nick to jesusabdullah
22:01:06  <jesusabdullah>ins0mnia: Hey, I just got back from a july 4 parade
22:01:13  <jesusabdullah>ins0mnia: us independence day, so
22:01:25  <jesusabdullah>ins0mnia: I'll be around a few hours, so hit me up
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23:16:52  <Raynos>Substack: that ember vs angular video is weird
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