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07:19:52  <jesusabdullah>quiet in here 2nite
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09:09:00  <Altreus>Friends, is there any difference at all between o.x() and o['x']() ?
09:13:49  <gildean>Altreus: no
09:14:13  <gildean>at least not that i'm aware of
09:14:32  <Altreus>merci. I wondered whether . might look at __proto__ and [] not, or something subtle
09:23:42  <guybrush>hey guys i want to make sure you did see https://github.com/cjb/serverless-webrtc /cc mbalho
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10:18:57  <jez0990>guybrush: this is amazing, I didn't realise the spec was capable of this yet
10:19:13  <jez0990>now to hook this up to scuttlebutt...
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10:28:45  <guybrush>it only works on ff and it large file transfer often fail
10:30:29  <guybrush>https://twitter.com/cjbprime/status/335535004622913536
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10:33:02  <jez0990>guybrush: do the openpeer demos work for you?
10:33:25  <jez0990>e.g. http://openpeer.github.io/webrtc-demo/
10:33:47  <guybrush>oh its long ago since i last checked
10:34:34  <guybrush>no i get some 502 and script error
10:55:48  <guybrush>https://towtruck.mozillalabs.com/ this is insane!
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12:27:32  <st_luke>guybrush: rad
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12:29:54  <rvagg>guys, anyone got any links handy to articles that give simple explanations of why modularity in node = win?
12:30:34  <rvagg>like... if you're talking to rails devs and mention how awesome modularity is but don't want to have to spend the time explaining why, what links would you give them?
12:32:59  <st_luke>rvagg: npmjs.org
12:33:07  <rvagg>RAILS DEVS
12:33:20  <rvagg>they'll answer with links to HN remember
12:33:24  <st_luke>rvagg: but thats a good question, maybe I take it for granted and never think about the "why" question
12:33:26  <rvagg>needs to be a little more easy to digest
12:33:46  <guybrush>rvagg: http://substack.net/node_aesthetic
12:34:15  <rvagg>guybrush: ahh yes, that's great!
12:36:10  <st_luke>I like how the date is 2011
12:36:24  <st_luke>it's not some new fad
12:36:37  <st_luke>I'm not sure about rails developers
12:37:03  <st_luke>but a lot of PHP people I've spoken with are really interested in how node applications are written
12:44:04  <substack>rails developers want to use tools that are fashionable among their peer group
12:49:20  <substack>like coffee script
12:49:28  <substack>and active record
12:50:07  <substack>the problem with omakase is that you've got to eat exactly the same meal every day
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13:02:51  <rvagg>rails makes me think of drag-and-drop GUI builders
13:03:03  <rvagg>just make me worry about my important "business logic" and get the rest of that crap out of the way
13:03:11  <rvagg>... except that "crap" is kind of important
13:04:02  <rvagg>but, there's a whole lot of those types out there, perhaps they're in the majority if you were to tally up the "programmers" of the world
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13:16:53  <substack>now writing more propaganda for the testling redesign
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13:40:23  <Domenic_>substack: oooh exciting tell us more
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13:48:08  <substack>Domenic_: just about using npm to manage front-end deps
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13:53:31  <Domenic_>oh ok
13:53:40  <Domenic_>cf http://www.slideshare.net/domenicdenicola/client-side-packages
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14:06:29  <substack> ~..~.~> ~.~.
14:06:44  <substack>hahaha
14:06:50  <substack>that was me trying to kill ssh
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14:18:57  <Kessler_>jesusabdullah: ping :)
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14:44:36  <defunctzombie>Domenic_: helpers.js
14:44:40  <defunctzombie>Domenic_: bad bad bad :p
14:45:08  <defunctzombie>also your examples of versioning dependencies is not good practice imho :)
14:45:35  <defunctzombie>otherwise, keep spreading the love!
14:46:27  <defunctzombie>Domenic_: note on CSS: use the style field in pakcage.json
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14:46:40  <defunctzombie>then stuff like npm-css or npm-less can just let you @import "module-name";
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15:04:11  <Domenic_>defunctzombie: my opinion is that styles belong only in apps, never in modules
15:04:31  <defunctzombie>Domenic_: it is nice to provide base styles or example stylesheets
15:04:40  <defunctzombie>so that apps can build on top of them or have something to start from
15:04:53  <Domenic_>maybe
15:05:01  <Domenic_>but in my experience people end up actually using the base styles
15:05:05  <Domenic_>which just leads to pain
15:05:15  <defunctzombie>sure, if they want to, let them
15:05:26  <defunctzombie>but you do need to provide some style to get started for certain widgets
15:05:28  <Domenic_>meh, not that much of a fan of shipping footguns
15:05:49  <Domenic_>depends on what "get started" means
15:05:57  <Domenic_>my definition would be "put something in the dom"
15:06:05  <defunctzombie>for me, it means add it easily to a page and have something be rendered
15:06:06  <defunctzombie>correctly
15:06:12  <defunctzombie>which is more than just "add to dom"
15:06:15  <Domenic_>but i understand some people might define it as "get something pretty on the screen"
15:06:16  <defunctzombie>for more complex widgets
15:06:16  <Domenic_>yeah
15:06:22  <defunctzombie>not even pretty
15:06:24  <defunctzombie>just correct
15:06:42  <defunctzombie>Domenic_: https://github.com/shtylman/iOS-Overlay
15:06:49  <defunctzombie>without a style, that won't even do anything
15:07:11  <Domenic_>that works for me though
15:07:21  <Domenic_>example styles are fine, base styles are in my experience a huge pain
15:07:26  <defunctzombie>sure
15:07:34  <defunctzombie>you don't have to make design decisions
15:07:46  <defunctzombie>you just gotta provide a style so the user at least knowns what classes to style if they want
15:08:38  <Domenic_>mmm
15:09:04  <defunctzombie>anyhow, the case for using commonjs is far more important :)
15:09:14  <defunctzombie>someone at the node.js meetup the other day told me about components
15:09:18  <defunctzombie>and I said I just use npm
15:09:30  <defunctzombie>he was like... well that clutters the npm registry
15:09:36  <defunctzombie>I was like.. dude.. no one cares
15:09:43  <defunctzombie>all the folks that maintain it don't care
15:09:53  <defunctzombie>and actually like using npm for client side hahaha
15:13:33  <Domenic_>yeah the cluttered registry people make me O_O
15:14:21  <substack>it's like, why do they even care
15:14:24  <substack>they don't even USE npm
15:14:32  <substack>what do they care of "clutter"
15:14:52  <substack>people who use npm the most are by far the most tolerant of clutter
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15:21:13  <kenperkins>when are explicit ratings coming to npm
15:21:37  <Domenic_>what does that even mean
15:21:49  <kenperkins>i.e. you can upvote a pkg
15:21:59  <kenperkins>much better signal than just installing it
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15:23:10  <gildean>yeah, we need a reputation system on npm
15:23:42  <Domenic_>npm star package
15:23:51  <kenperkins>Domenic_ or like/unlike?
15:23:54  <thl0>gildean: working on it :) https://github.com/thlorenz/valuepack
15:23:55  <kenperkins>downvotes are important too
15:24:02  <Domenic_>kenperkins: npm unstar package
15:24:07  <kenperkins>Domenic_: sure
15:24:10  <kenperkins>semantics
15:24:15  <kenperkins>but it's the explicit signal that we need
15:24:19  <thl0>Domenic_: but then the info is lost
15:24:29  <thl0>i.e. that someon downvoted it
15:24:34  <kenperkins>I think we need signals on the good packages that aren't biased by first-mover status
15:24:41  <kenperkins>(and bad packages)
15:24:44  <Domenic_>i am not convinced downvotes add anything to the ecosystem
15:24:51  <kenperkins>i.e. how many SHITTY packages get massive downloads because they were first mover
15:24:56  <thl0>kenperkins: https://github.com/thlorenz/valuepack/blob/master/goals.md#downvotes
15:25:17  <kenperkins>thl0: Don't know if it should be required
15:25:25  <gildean>imo simple like/unlike doesn't tell the whole truth, it should be more like 0 to 5 stars or something like that
15:25:27  <thl0>Domenic_: it can be used to save others time, i.e. I downvoted this because it is broken
15:25:50  <thl0>kenperkins: a downvote without telling others what the problem is is not so useful
15:26:10  <kenperkins>is it more useful than no downvote?
15:26:19  <thl0>kenperkins: i.e. I could see it was downvoted b/c it doesn't work on windows, but if that is not my concern I can ignore that downvote
15:26:34  <kenperkins>I'm not saying you can't optionally provide a reason, but should it be required?
15:26:34  <gildean>maybe a reviewing system, something like on amazon etc.?
15:26:52  <thl0>kenperkins: wanna prevent people from downvoting without thinking about it
15:26:52  <kenperkins>gildean: i think any WotC system will be a huge benefit
15:26:52  <gildean>where you can only give stars by leaving also a comment
15:26:58  <kenperkins>which one? I'm not sure
15:27:06  <thl0>kenperkins: but these semantics can change -- these are just first ideas
15:27:11  <kenperkins>thl0: I know
15:27:38  <kenperkins>take a look at SO
15:27:44  <kenperkins>the don't require a reason for a downvote do they?
15:27:47  <kenperkins>same with reddit
15:27:54  <gildean>i do share the consern that people would just downvote a module because "it's coffeescript" or something like that
15:28:05  <kenperkins>gildean: lol yep, would probably happen
15:28:16  <thl0>kenperkins: that is were some inspiration came from, but I'll already provide shortcuts to give a reason, so you don't even have to type anything ;)
15:28:16  <Domenic_>i think a reason for downvote would be very helpful
15:28:26  <kenperkins>but coffee haters would fill out the description: "because coffee"
15:28:43  <thl0>Domenic_: yes and if it's not enforced -- people are lazy ;)
15:29:00  <kenperkins>i think we should get a MVP working, and then iterate
15:29:01  <thl0>kenperkins: but that is perfect, since if I don't care, I can discount all these downvotes ;)
15:29:14  <thl0>kenperkins: working on it daily
15:29:16  <gildean>kenperkins: yeah, but if there was a mandatory comment, then you could still glance at the comments and see why people gave a bad rating
15:29:28  <defunctzombie>kenperkins: thl0: Domenic_: instead of downvoting, maybe talk to the author about improvements
15:29:29  <kenperkins>thl0: I'm just curious about the ratio of people that won't bother commenting
15:29:34  <thl0>kenperkins: the mining modules are pretty much finished
15:29:40  <kenperkins>i.e. what % of downvotes will you lose by making it required
15:29:57  <kenperkins>defunctzombie: always the best course
15:30:05  <defunctzombie>downvoting a module is not nice imho
15:30:09  <thl0>defunctzombie: creating an issue will be encouraged on downvoting
15:30:09  <defunctzombie>if you don't like it, don't use it
15:30:25  <kenperkins>but you can't deny there are pkg owners that are a) unresponsive b) strongly opinionated c) just bad developers
15:30:32  <defunctzombie>sure
15:30:39  <thl0>kenperkins: their downvotes will way less
15:30:42  <defunctzombie>and it isn't your job to rid the world of them :)
15:30:53  <kenperkins>no but it is our job to promote the good within our community
15:30:57  <thl0>kenperkins: https://github.com/thlorenz/valuepack/blob/master/goals.md#weighing-downvotes
15:30:59  <kenperkins>and protect new people from the bad
15:31:03  <gildean>imo the best would be a rating system with a mandatory comment of like at least a 100 characters
15:31:35  <kenperkins>defunctzombie: my big gripe is that within the node community, there are a lot of "first mover" packages
15:31:41  <kenperkins>and a lot of those packages have critical mass
15:31:48  <defunctzombie>is that a bad thing?
15:31:49  <kenperkins>but if you look at the implementations, they're not so hot
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15:31:56  <defunctzombie>ok.. so fork and fix :)
15:32:05  <kenperkins>and then the fork gets ignored for 6 months
15:32:10  <kenperkins>or gets closed won't fix
15:32:10  <defunctzombie>or fork and use your own via github style urls :)
15:32:36  <kenperkins>and then what? republish to npm with a different name?
15:32:40  <gildean>also in many cases it's just simply easier to start from a scratch than to try and fix a mess
15:32:42  <defunctzombie>if the author doesn't care about your changes or you think the module is dead, then email isaacs
15:32:49  <defunctzombie>sure, use a different name
15:33:03  <kenperkins>I guess what I'm saying is, all of those actions don't help the community at large
15:33:12  <kenperkins>there's no feedback loop to benefit other people
15:33:17  <defunctzombie>maybe the community at large likes the original?
15:33:21  <kenperkins>maybe
15:33:26  <kenperkins>the ratings would show that
15:33:30  <defunctzombie>you are making a very strong assumption that you are always correct
15:33:41  <defunctzombie>:)
15:33:53  <gildean>defunctzombie: but if the author doesn't like your changes because the style is different or something like that, that's no reason to remove the module completely and imo no reason to bother isaacs
15:33:55  <kenperkins>i'm making a large assumption that the correct ratings would come through
15:34:34  <kenperkins>here's a perfect example of a rating I would give to a package: request would get 3 stars (out of 5)
15:34:52  <defunctzombie>gildean: different style is not justification enough imho
15:34:57  <kenperkins>tests are not dertiministic, mikeal won't accept PRs introducing a proper test framework
15:35:02  <defunctzombie>kenperkins: multi star rating systems suck
15:35:04  <kenperkins>and it gives me worries about stability
15:35:10  <defunctzombie>ok.. then don't use it
15:35:14  <defunctzombie>use something else
15:35:27  <defunctzombie>and blog about that something else :)
15:35:32  <kenperkins>you keep coming back to this point of if you don't like something then don't use it
15:36:16  <kenperkins>do you think amazon would be better without user ratings?
15:36:24  <defunctzombie>I think comments on modules might be nice, but less so interested in "rating star" systems
15:36:35  <gildean>it's not enough of a signal to others if you just don't use it, and possibly you've wasted a lot of time coming to the resolution that the module is bad
15:36:35  <kenperkins>defunctzombie: I'm not married to a specific approach
15:36:45  <kenperkins>but rather: we need the feedback loop
15:36:56  <kenperkins>comments, up/down vote, star rating
15:36:57  <kenperkins>something.
15:37:01  <kenperkins>more explicit that just downloads
15:37:17  <defunctzombie>gildean: picking a module amongst options is not wasting time.. it is evaluating options
15:37:27  <defunctzombie>I don't look at downloads at all
15:37:30  <defunctzombie>not one bit
15:37:36  <defunctzombie>I look at the source
15:37:38  <defunctzombie>and the author
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15:37:48  <kenperkins>you don't but I'd bet a lot do
15:37:55  <defunctzombie>based on what assesment?
15:38:29  <kenperkins>the fact that it's the first metric on the package page on npm?
15:39:02  <gildean>defunctzombie: but then if you got like 20 modules that do the same thing and the thing requires a lot of code or very complex code, that woulnd't necessarily be an option
15:39:38  <defunctzombie>gildean: why not?
15:39:43  <defunctzombie>pick one and try it
15:39:51  <defunctzombie>or take a look at the readmes for a minute or two
15:39:54  <defunctzombie>and then pick one
15:39:54  <gildean>also assuming that everyone can evaluate code just by reading it assumes that everyone is an expert in javascript
15:40:05  <kenperkins>defunctzombie: let me take a different approach: what harm can come from providing an optional feedback loop?
15:40:09  <defunctzombie>if you are a professional developer and are scared to look at code
15:40:18  <defunctzombie>I have no fucking pity for you
15:40:18  <kenperkins>defunctzombie: if *you* don't want to provide feedback, then don't
15:40:28  <gildean>defunctzombie: i wasn't talking about me, i was talking in general
15:40:40  <defunctzombie>I too am talking in general
15:40:47  <defunctzombie>on one is going to do your thinking for you
15:40:57  <thl0>defunctzombie: it is helpful though to sort your options by likelyhood of a good match
15:41:13  <gildean>yeah, but you're assuming everyone using npm is a professional developer, and not for example a 12 year old kid just getting into programming
15:41:19  <thl0>defunctzombie: also you may know what authors are good, newcomers may not
15:41:33  <kenperkins>gildean: even "professional developer" is particularly nebulous
15:41:38  <defunctzombie>thl0: I don't
15:41:41  <kenperkins>I've seen a lot of code that makes you go "wat?"
15:41:41  <defunctzombie>I just try stuff
15:41:43  <gildean>kenperkins: true
15:41:46  <thl0>defunctzombie: you are already filtering/sorting by keyword right?
15:41:52  <defunctzombie>so what.. if it does what it needs to do
15:41:54  <defunctzombie>then try it
15:41:56  <thl0>why not do the same for quality
15:42:00  <kenperkins>defunctzombie could you answer my question pls?
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15:42:26  <defunctzombie>kenperkins: same reason we don't have "comments" on github repos honestly
15:42:36  <defunctzombie>or debian packages
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15:43:00  <kenperkins>no you're not answering my quesiton: what harm comes from it? If you don't want to provide feedback, then don't
15:43:03  <defunctzombie>development libs are not like some good you purchase once and never revisit imho
15:43:13  <defunctzombie>kenperkins: who is going to build this? you?
15:43:23  <kenperkins>still not addressing my point
15:43:32  <defunctzombie>kenperkins: I am not against it (actually I probably am cause I suspect it won't be usable) but who knows
15:43:39  <defunctzombie>show me a working thing :)
15:44:08  <kenperkins>I'll be sure to talk to people next week over beers
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15:44:14  <kenperkins>I'll build it
15:44:19  <defunctzombie>kenperkins: I am not stopping you from trying, just telling you that to be usable it will need certain aspects more than others
15:44:26  <defunctzombie>excelllent!
15:44:33  <kenperkins>part of my job description anyway
15:45:45  <defunctzombie>I am all for more feedback on modules etc, but I am concerned it will turn into a bashfest and place to dump issues
15:46:13  <defunctzombie>and I think that will be terrible since github is where the issues should be (assuming module is on github)
15:46:23  <kenperkins>those are perfectly valid concerns
15:46:53  <defunctzombie>personally, I would like to see more promotion of new users being more social
15:47:07  <kenperkins>meaning getting into the community
15:47:11  <defunctzombie>jump in IRC, ask on the mailing list what modules are useful for thing X
15:47:23  <defunctzombie>find others in your area that you can connect to
15:47:27  <defunctzombie>or others online
15:47:52  <rook2pawn>anyone know of an existing module that lets a server.listen(stream)?
15:47:56  <defunctzombie>see what other modules that module author has written or what else they have on github
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15:48:39  <gildean>hmm, what do you think about if you could only rate and comment on a module if you've published modules of your own?
15:49:18  <gildean>so there would be less clutter and more ratings from actual developers
15:49:26  <defunctzombie>gildean: not good
15:49:36  <defunctzombie>a) some people will dummy publish just to rate
15:49:48  <defunctzombie>b) just cause I haven't published doesn't mean I don't have meaningful contributions to make
15:50:40  <kenperkins>I stronly agree with b
15:50:47  <kenperkins>I didn't publish a package for almost 18 months
15:50:50  <kenperkins>but I used them every day
15:51:06  <gildean>i really doubt that many people would go through the trouble of dummy-publishing just to rate, but i can agree on the second argument
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15:56:13  <defunctzombie>I doubt it too, but it could happen if someone really wants to rate for whatever reason
15:56:25  <defunctzombie>you also need a way to report ratings
15:56:35  <defunctzombie>and someone to moderate
15:56:38  <thl0>I just wrote a 10 lines promises thing that would otherwise have been twice as long ^^ Domenic_
15:57:07  <kenperkins>defunctzombie: yes, just like on amazon how you can up and downvote ratings themselves
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15:57:14  <kenperkins>(or appstore, SO, etc)
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15:59:49  <defunctzombie>Domenic_: what are your thoughts on angular now that you used it some?
15:59:57  <defunctzombie>anything you hate or really like?
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16:03:08  <Domenic_>defunctzombie: i think it's pretty good actually
16:03:30  <Domenic_>i think the fact they use the word "module" to mean something else is very irksome, heh
16:04:31  <defunctzombie>heh
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16:05:02  <Domenic_>trying to think of more things...
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16:09:45  <thl0>defunctzombie: I like it a lot as well
16:10:15  <thl0>DI and separation of concerns is nice, as well as the fact that it is unobstrusive (unlike Ember for instance)
16:11:37  <kenperkins>tl;dr on angular?
16:12:33  * num9quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
16:14:43  <Domenic_>I like how it allows you to write semantic-ish markup
16:15:03  <Domenic_>defunctzombie: http://codepen.io/anon/pen/lHCKb a demo i've been playing with
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17:07:08  <substack>jjjohnny: http://marcin.juszkiewicz.com.pl/2012/11/23/chromebook-support-for-ubuntu/
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17:41:02  <defunctzombie>Domenic_: interesting, do those custom tags play nice in browsers?
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17:41:53  <defunctzombie>Domenic_: and the AppCtrl, if I have that in some browserified files, will it still find it?
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17:47:30  <Domenic_>defunctzombie: yeah, except in ie8 where you have to do the document.createElement() stuff (which is included in that example actually)
17:48:23  <Domenic_>and if you want to not use globals, you do a little bit more work, something like angular.bootstrap(document.querySelector('.find-my-element-gogogo'), ['nameOfAngularModuleContainingAppCtrl'])
17:48:28  <Domenic_>which is what we're doing
17:48:38  <defunctzombie>I see
17:48:48  <Domenic_>but i believe after you do that for a parent element child elements can just use ng-controller
17:49:08  <Domenic_>so if your entire app is in one angular module (which is totally fine) you can just do that line once then use ng-controller from then on
17:49:24  <Domenic_>or one module per large feature in the app
17:49:31  <defunctzombie>Domenic_: I dunno how much I like putting the ng-click stuff in html
17:49:42  <defunctzombie>I think I want to try the QT approach for auto signal binding maybe
17:49:52  <Domenic_>haven't seen that, sounds interesting
17:50:47  <defunctzombie>Domenic_: http://qtway.blogspot.com/2010/08/automatic-connections-using-qt-signals.html
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17:51:16  <defunctzombie>basically, if you give an element a "name" or I guess in html and ID or something, then within the scope (angular speak) it could bind to certain methods
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17:51:38  <defunctzombie>the method just has to exist and that is all
17:52:06  <Domenic_>hmm yeah that is kind of nice
17:52:26  <defunctzombie>thl0: (just to make you jealous) got done with a bike ride in central park
17:52:48  <thl0>defunctzombie: ;P I'll run tonite
17:53:37  <thl0>defunctzombie: not to make you jelaus but I just overllooked central park all the way to the Bronx from the 50th floor
17:53:43  <defunctzombie>Domenic_: the major benefit is that you don't have to update things in 2 places
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17:53:51  <defunctzombie>thl0: :'(
17:54:24  <Domenic_>thl0: defunctzombie haha pwnd love it
17:55:47  <defunctzombie>how many of these code sharing tools are there now?
18:03:49  <jesusabdullah>derf
18:16:09  <substack>more stream adventures, up to 10 now
18:16:17  <substack>http://npmjs.org/package/stream-adventure
18:16:23  <substack>for nodeconf
18:17:16  <substack>rook2pawn: the problem with server.listen(stream) is that stream would need to be completely buffered and played back every time
18:17:55  <substack>since streams are 1:1 with connections so a server can't reuse the same stream for all connections
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18:35:02  <owen1>thanks for those adventures. it's really fun
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18:44:02  <defunctzombie>Domenic_: thl0: how does angular actually instantiate the controller if it isn't a global (the controller class/function that is)
18:44:22  <thl0>defunctzombie: you register it
18:44:32  <defunctzombie>ah
18:44:42  <thl0>then when you mention it by name angular looks it up in the container
18:45:55  <defunctzombie>so you gotta register it before the angular stuff runs I imagine?
18:46:28  <thl0>defunctzombie: something like: angular.module('mainmodule').controller('$controlllerName', require('../controllermodule'))
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18:47:01  <thl0>yep, the registration code needs to run before angular parses the html
18:47:41  <Domenic_>well, you have to register it before you do the angular.bootstrap(document, ['mainmodule'])
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19:28:01  <guybrush>substack: very nice! im hooked to that game :)
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19:42:00  <jesusabdullah>uuuugh fuckin' computer science pretentiousness
19:42:03  <jesusabdullah>arglebargle
19:42:59  <substack>jesusabdullah: WHERE
19:43:23  <defunctzombie>why do I keep getting geeklist emails
19:43:30  <defunctzombie>jesus christ how do I make it stop
19:44:55  <jesusabdullah>substack: node.js :( I made a mistake and said v8 jits to bytecode instead of machine code and this dude said, "you must not have much of a computer science background"
19:45:13  <jesusabdullah>I mean, honest mistake and I'm glad I got called on it but, man
19:45:41  <substack>what
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19:46:07  <substack>defunctzombie: start flagging it as spam in your email client
19:46:25  <substack>jesusabdullah: people are jerks
19:46:31  <jesusabdullah>[11:35] < fiola> Not very good credentials for giving advice then :P
19:46:31  <jesusabdullah>[11:35] < jesusabdullah> huh? You can totally rip shit out of express
19:46:31  <jesusabdullah>[11:35] < jesusabdullah> it depends on the advice, fiola.
19:46:31  <jesusabdullah>[11:36] < fiola> You know, the *accurate* kind :P
19:46:33  <substack>especially about bullshit CS trivia that nobody should care about
19:46:54  <jesusabdullah>[11:37] < jesusabdullah> fiola, think of me as a tradesman if you need to.
19:47:00  <substack>"credentials"
19:47:06  <jesusabdullah>[11:37] < jesusabdullah> You'll find that when it comes to on-the-job situations, a tradesman can run circles around many an engineer.
19:47:09  <st_luke>wtf did i walk in on
19:47:18  <jesusabdullah>[11:38] < fiola> Nothing wrong with tradesmen, except when they pretend to be engineers, or worse, educators, and end up mis-educating.
19:47:19  <substack>st_luke: I don't even know
19:47:21  <jesusabdullah>tsschaw
19:47:37  <jesusabdullah>st_luke: me bitching about someone saying I need a comp sci background in order to give advice
19:47:43  <substack>and programmers pretend to know math and physics
19:47:46  <jesusabdullah>st_luke: I'm just being whiny today
19:47:58  <jesusabdullah>lol
19:48:03  <substack>and it doesn't matter because you can pretty much make stuff up and it kind of works
19:48:06  <jesusabdullah>and physicists pretend to know engineering
19:48:21  <jesusabdullah>even when we roll our eyes at each other, a CS major can still build a sick underwater ROV
19:48:43  <defunctzombie>jesusabdullah: tell him machine code and byte code are the same thing :)
19:48:49  <defunctzombie>jesusabdullah: he just needs a smarter machine
19:48:49  <st_luke>hang on, let me delete any software or software related thing i've written because i dont have a computer science degree
19:48:52  <substack>well, when engineering folk run around doing waterfall for prototypical designs it's hardly a contest
19:48:53  <jesusabdullah>defunctzombie: lol
19:49:13  <jesusabdullah>substack: I have to wonder what the agile car company would look like
19:49:22  <substack>jesusabdullah: tesla?
19:49:32  <defunctzombie>jesusabdullah: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1383947/can-we-implement-a-java-interpreter-in-hardware-that-executes-java-bytecodes-nat
19:49:33  <jesusabdullah>substack: Maybe! I honestly don't know much about Tesla's internal processes
19:50:13  <substack>or toyota has a system where they continuously roll out changes and improvements
19:50:17  <substack>in small batches
19:50:27  <jesusabdullah>yeah, I've heard about the "toyota method"
19:50:31  <defunctzombie>jesusabdullah: also
19:50:34  <jesusabdullah>though it's not called agile at all
19:50:36  <defunctzombie>jesusabdullah: he is wrong about what v8 does
19:50:43  <jesusabdullah>defunctzombie: lololol, nice
19:50:47  <defunctzombie>jesusabdullah: v8 does not compile shit.. it interprets
19:51:00  <defunctzombie>in some cases it will JIT certain things
19:51:06  <defunctzombie>but it is not going to machine code
19:51:08  <jesusabdullah>defunctzombie: me, I was just trying to say that you don't need to explicitly compile v8 into machine code a la gcc
19:51:22  <jesusabdullah>defunctzombie: interesting
19:51:24  <defunctzombie>he is an idiot and you should ignore him
19:51:46  <jesusabdullah>st_luke: what's your degree in ooc? I guess I kinda assumed you did some cs stuff
19:52:00  <jesusabdullah>defunctzombie: heck, what about YOUR credentials? XD
19:52:13  <substack>"lean" is the fashionable term for it
19:52:22  <jesusabdullah>defunctzombie: I care more about background than credentials, I just think it's interesting to know what perspective someone comes from y'know?
19:52:25  <substack>I don't have a CS degree either.
19:52:39  <jesusabdullah>substack: what, did you ditch the last 6 credits or something?
19:52:44  <substack>pretty much
19:53:04  <jesusabdullah>I mean, I know you don't put much stock on degrees, but man, I would've just bitten the bullet
19:53:11  <jesusabdullah>at least get my piece of paper
19:53:16  <substack>what for?
19:53:23  <jesusabdullah>to make your parents happy, duh
19:53:31  <substack>my parents don't care at all
19:53:32  <jesusabdullah>plus maybe those last 6 credits would've been cool
19:53:33  <st_luke>jesusabdullah: its not in anything, I don't have one
19:53:45  <jesusabdullah>st_luke: oh word
19:54:01  <jesusabdullah>st_luke: so what did you do after high school? Straight to work, or tried-it-didnt-like-it, or..?
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19:54:09  <defunctzombie>I got a "CS" degree and by far the most I learned was stuff I did outside of class
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19:54:23  <jesusabdullah>I may have accidentally a masters degree XD
19:54:34  <defunctzombie>robots, vision, web, machine learning, whatever
19:54:41  <jesusabdullah>it was fun but at the end of the day, given what I'm doing with it, relatively useless
19:54:59  <jesusabdullah>I always thought having a masters would get my foot in the door for a first round interview at EIT gigs, but noooooooooo
19:55:08  <defunctzombie>nope
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19:55:18  <defunctzombie>CS masters is a waste of time if you are thinking about work work
19:55:27  <defunctzombie>if you are researched focused then maybe
19:55:32  <jesusabdullah>"THAT guy isn't PASSIONATE about HEATING VENTILATION OR AIR CONDITIONING"
19:55:40  <defunctzombie>also, it depends on what you end up doing
19:55:43  <jesusabdullah>defunctzombie: mechanical engineering degree
19:55:55  <substack>http://searls.testdouble.com/posts/2013-06-16-unrequired-love.html
19:56:01  <substack>send your rage to http://www.reddit.com/r/javascript/comments/1gsuc0/unrequired_love_a_discussion_on_javascript_and/
19:56:08  <defunctzombie>the thing to realize in any field is that there are people to learn from and you should keep learning and trying to get better
19:56:09  <jesusabdullah>defunctzombie: I couldn't even get a first round interview with the local power plant for an EIT position
19:56:25  <jesusabdullah>defunctzombie: and yet I get job leads in tech even when I don't really want them
19:56:33  <defunctzombie>not surprising, most jobs that aren't tech do not kill off people
19:56:34  <jesusabdullah>defunctzombie: just fuckin' weird
19:56:37  <defunctzombie>so the turnover is not that high
19:56:57  <defunctzombie>and when turnover is not high and we live longer than ever
19:57:00  <defunctzombie>well, you get the ideo
19:57:01  <st_luke>jesusabdullah: I guess after high school was college but I skipped my senior year and did this thing for certain students where you could do a freshman year of college instead
19:57:02  <defunctzombie>*idea
19:57:17  <jesusabdullah>yeah but that would mean less postings, not inability to, umm, even get an interview
19:57:24  <jesusabdullah>st_luke: cool, my sister did that
19:57:31  <jesusabdullah>st_luke: so you tried it, didn't like it?
19:58:03  <jesusabdullah>defunctzombie: actually, oil companies regularly have massive layoffs, in part to avoid paying retirement packages
19:58:21  <defunctzombie>substack: what does that post even say?
19:58:23  <jesusabdullah>defunctzombie: but I can never pass myself off as enough of a company man to get their attention
19:58:43  <substack>defunctzombie: "modules are bad because require.js sucks"
19:59:03  <defunctzombie>fascinating...
19:59:11  <defunctzombie>but their approaches don't seem to make life easier
19:59:23  <defunctzombie>and require.js DOES suck
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19:59:31  <defunctzombie>because it makes you do more work for no reason
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19:59:59  <jesusabdullah>naw, what he's saying is, "**I** never needed a module system"
20:00:20  <defunctzombie>good for him
20:00:20  <substack>I don't need no module system no way no how
20:00:22  <substack>no sir
20:00:24  <st_luke>jesusabdullah: I liked it but I was 17 and suddenly had a lot of new freedom so I dropped out
20:00:28  <jesusabdullah>like, oh great, you can get around it by using the module pattern and namespaces
20:01:04  <jesusabdullah>I guess it's better than nothing
20:01:08  <defunctzombie>namespaces *are* modules without all the nice things like good isolation and versioning
20:01:13  <jesusabdullah>yeah see?
20:01:36  <jesusabdullah>that's my point, module pattern + namespacing globals = shitty ad-hoc modules
20:01:55  <defunctzombie>extend('ou.reports.invoices.CalculatesTotals', function(){
20:02:04  <st_luke>it's like when people put a 'modules' section in their css
20:02:07  <defunctzombie>yea.. that makes much more sense than just var foo = require('foo');
20:02:22  <jesusabdullah>I mean, the C guys discovered namespaces ages ago
20:02:59  <defunctzombie>c and c++ includes are the worst
20:03:09  <defunctzombie>the best example of how not to make a "module" system
20:03:11  <jesusabdullah>yes they are!
20:03:27  <defunctzombie>see: http://clang.llvm.org/docs/Modules.html
20:04:51  <jesusabdullah>the guy's also missing the package management aspect of all this
20:05:04  <jesusabdullah>it's great when your module system and your package manager play nice with each other
20:05:11  <substack>inform him: http://www.reddit.com/r/javascript/comments/1gsuc0/unrequired_love_a_discussion_on_javascript_and/
20:05:36  <defunctzombie>I am not sure where to start
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20:05:45  <defunctzombie>I don't know what his code typically looks like
20:05:50  <defunctzombie>or anything about his projects
20:06:20  <defunctzombie>anyone who goes to write such a post seems like their mind is already made up
20:06:34  <defunctzombie>they are trying to justify to others (maybe to themselves) why they don't need anything new
20:11:08  <jesusabdullah>substack: http://www.reddit.com/r/javascript/comments/1gsuc0/unrequired_love_a_discussion_on_javascript_and/canm28k
20:12:09  <jesusabdullah>that's my "alt-but-not-so-alt" account
20:12:24  <jesusabdullah>that I use because I don't want employers to immediately figure out how crazy I am irl
20:13:16  <substack>CTRL-ALT-jesusabdullah
20:19:06  <jesusabdullah>derf
20:22:38  <jesusabdullah>ugh I need a coffee grinder
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20:36:23  <owen1>jesusabdullah: made Crème brûlée with red beans and crickets by using my coffee grinder. my team didn't even realized they are eating crickets!
20:36:46  <owen1>CRICKETS
20:37:35  <owen1>omg. loudbot is broken because of twitter new OAuth
20:45:25  <mbalho>WHAT THE HELL TWITTER
20:47:31  <owen1>mbalho: do u have the code for that bot? my loudbot broke after twitter changed their api, and i getting 400 on this GET request? curl -v -H "Accept-Encoding: gzip" -H "Authorization: Bearer AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABwnRQAAAAAAlAN1%2BtB%2BaR1TaksDXDRmz5KmaBQ%3Dj3bAsEmKsDUqtqayuoXZ1B511U22Tnh76WIT0abcd" api.twitter.com/1.1/statuses/user_timeline.json?count=100&screen_name=loudbot
20:48:02  <owen1>there must be a node client i can use instead of curl
20:49:33  <dominictarr>ralphtheninja: hey you there?
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20:58:06  <dominictarr>owen1: one based on request would be nice!
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21:14:30  <owen1>Domenic_: agree, but i got to figure out first why am i getting 400
21:15:07  <owen1>i did the outh dance to get the bearer token.
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21:48:00  <Domenic_>owen1: uncurled is a mini replacement for curl, not sure of context so dunno if replacement
21:48:24  * Ikeymanpart
21:50:39  <owen1>https://github.com/othiym23/uncurled interesting
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22:18:45  <hij1nx>https://twitter.com/hij1nx/status/348131700607422464
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22:26:50  <hij1nx>^ basically leveldb/nodejs party at wayla office tomorow for anyone in NYC!!!
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23:08:53  <Raynos>dominictarr: ping
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23:23:55  <defunctzombie>http://vagabond.github.io/2013/06/21/z_packagers-dont-know-best/
23:23:56  <defunctzombie>rofl
23:24:03  <defunctzombie>this is what happens when you don't localize deps
23:26:16  <defunctzombie>people need to stop throwing around "- potential exposure to security vulnerabilities" as a reason for any sort of packaging decisions or version decisions
23:26:44  <defunctzombie>don't kid yourself, no one checks the code for "potential security issues" and the ones that do, guess what, they fork and maintain their own versions
23:26:55  <defunctzombie>cause that is the only true way to ensure you don't miss things
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23:29:56  <jesusabdullah>guys I have a question for you
23:30:02  <jesusabdullah>So, a recruiter got ahold of me
23:30:17  <jesusabdullah>and, like, I need a job, and this one sounds reasonable enough to follow up on
23:30:42  <jesusabdullah>thing is, mr recruiter was a little cagey about who his client was, as usual, but a little detective work sniffed it out and I have the option of sidestepping him and applying directly
23:30:55  <jesusabdullah>I can't decide which is the better move, both strategically and morally
23:30:59  <jesusabdullah>halp
23:32:07  <defunctzombie>sidestep and contact them directly if they have job postings
23:32:20  <defunctzombie>recruiters who do not tell you who they are hiring for are terrible
23:32:24  <defunctzombie>do not feel bad
23:33:00  <rch>definitely
23:33:02  <defunctzombie>if they can't be honest with you from the start, then that recruiter is not good
23:33:17  <rch>the recruiter will object, but they're withholding information from you purely to maintain a power imbalance
23:34:13  <rch>you'll probably be received better by the company too if you sidestep, it's likely if this is a terrible recruiter that the company has learned not to have high expectations of the condidates he brings in
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23:42:48  <jesusabdullah>rch: unless of course they funnel all their job applicants through the recruiter
23:43:08  <jesusabdullah>then again, would they have been cagey about the identity of their client?
23:43:12  <jesusabdullah>probably not
23:43:21  <rch>right that's usually not how that works
23:43:42  <rch>that would be a higher quality relationship company<->recruiter, which is usually a better recruiter who will tell you more up front
23:44:38  <jesusabdullah>right
23:46:14  <jesusabdullah>defunctzombie: yeah, poor bashoite
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