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00:02:44  <owen1>i always get confused and i think as a community leaders you guys should decide. what is a module and what is a package
00:02:59  <owen1>i also like to think of package as npm package
00:03:15  <owen1>and module as commonJS module
00:03:46  <owen1>commond vocabulary is nice sometimes
00:03:59  <dominictarr>substack: there are modules, packages, and files?
00:04:48  <dominictarr>a package is not necessarily a module though, or a file
00:04:54  <owen1>especialy when working on a team, it is really valuable.
00:05:00  <dominictarr>only the right type of thing is a modules
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00:08:48  <owen1>on every node.js file i have the following sections: # core modules # npm packages # my modules
00:09:01  <owen1>in that order
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00:15:01  <rch>owen1: you mean in the order of your requires right
00:17:05  <owen1>yeah. after the first comment my core module will be required etc
00:17:50  <owen1>since i am the first one at my company to write node, i feel obligated to be organized as much as i can
00:18:21  <owen1>so i also try to come up with vocabulary - what is a module and what is a package, etc
00:18:34  <owen1>and i don't think there is an agreement about that.
00:19:22  <rch>i think it's clear when something is a commonjs module and when something is an npm package
00:19:35  <rch>sometimes one thing is both (module + package.json)
00:19:58  <rch>words have lots of meanings though
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00:55:29  <niftylettuce>i started a blog http://niftylettuce.com/
00:58:33  <jesusabdullah>lemme know when you post that one to hater news niftylettuce I'll upboat for sure
00:58:43  <niftylettuce>jesusabdullah: awesome
00:58:44  <niftylettuce>will do
00:58:49  <niftylettuce>tomorrow im going to
00:59:07  <niftylettuce>made it responsive for mobile/tablets :)
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00:59:52  <jesusabdullah>coolio
01:02:07  <owen1>I watched a video by TJ where he modularize a website into multiple express apps: var login = require('./lib/login'); var signup = require('./lib/signup'); app.use(signup); app.use(login); app.listen(3000). what do u think about this approach and how can we do that without express?
01:02:33  <owen1>I sometimes think we should create an http server and pass our different usecases (features?) into it. that way our logic can live on it's own without the 'delivery mechanism'. that's the video - http://vimeo.com/56166857 and here is the code - https://github.com/vinitcool76/node-modular-demo
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01:06:12  <substack>owen1: I don't think the labels matter very much
01:07:19  <owen1>what labels
01:15:48  <substack>module vs package
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01:18:19  <owen1>oh, ok
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01:34:21  <jesusabdullah>owen1: easy. Use connect.
01:34:32  <jesusabdullah>owen1: or one of the many alternative middleware libs
01:36:48  <jesusabdullah>ohey btw dudes, I'm looking for a job
01:36:51  <jesusabdullah>if anyone has any leads
01:36:53  <jesusabdullah>pass 'em my way
01:37:12  <jesusabdullah>looking for something vaguely low-key that will pay my rent and not have me living paycheck to paycheck
01:37:23  <jesusabdullah>obviously with node
01:37:37  <rch>jesusabdullah: low key? like part time?
01:37:41  <jesusabdullah>and remote, can't leave AK until like mid-July at the earliest
01:37:51  <jesusabdullah>rch: naw, I can do full time
01:38:17  <jesusabdullah>rch: my last gig was an early stage startup and I found it really stressful, I'd like something more stable
01:38:20  <jesusabdullah>rch: that's all I mean
01:39:21  <rch>jesusabdullah: so my team is vaguely hiring right now at rackspace sf (it was less vague but then we hired a lot), remote is possible but not a slam dunk, we let people interview for it though
01:39:26  <rch>jesusabdullah: the product is cloud monitoring
01:39:50  <jesusabdullah>I know rackspace sf, were you there when AvianFlu and I were hanging out there?
01:39:59  <jesusabdullah>chill with the cloudkickers
01:40:02  <rch>jesusabdullah: heh no idea, was it in the last 1.5 years?
01:40:06  <jesusabdullah>yeah
01:40:07  <rch>yeah i work with what was cloudkick
01:40:09  <rch>yep i was there
01:40:10  <jesusabdullah>last summer
01:40:19  <jesusabdullah>I think?
01:40:33  <rch>cool, no idea
01:40:40  <jesusabdullah>the two nodejitsu guys borrowing desks and asking where Paul Querna was all the time
01:40:47  <jesusabdullah>hung out with Lucy a few times
01:40:47  <rch>heh
01:40:52  <rch>wow ok you know my team
01:41:16  <jesusabdullah>are you SURE we didn't meet? lol
01:41:22  <thl0>is there a way to manage versions when installing from github? aside tags?
01:41:24  <rch>nfi, could've
01:41:32  <jesusabdullah>haha, small world man
01:41:48  <jesusabdullah>well hey, you've piqued my interest
01:42:27  <jesusabdullah>I gotta go get my scheduled social time in right now but, yeah, if there's someone I should talk to or somewhere I should send a resume, lemme know
01:42:36  <jesusabdullah>also tell Lucy I said hey
01:42:38  <rch>cool, yeah there's nothing on the site for this x.x
01:42:45  <rch>link me to your github? and i'll see what i can do this week
01:42:51  <rch>sure thing
01:42:52  <jesusabdullah>https://github.com/jesusabdullah
01:44:13  <jesusabdullah>obtw, come fall I might be willing to relocate, I liked SF and even though I like being home I know it's a good place for me to be
01:44:37  <rch>oakland ;)
01:44:42  <jesusabdullah>never again
01:44:54  <rch>heh, uh oh
01:44:55  <jesusabdullah>I lived with the stack in a shitty hood in West Oak when I was down there
01:45:02  <jesusabdullah>off West MacArf
01:45:04  <jesusabdullah>*shudder*
01:45:50  <jesusabdullah>actually there are some parts of oakland I'd do
01:45:53  <rch>um, this kills me: https://github.com/jesusabdullah/hoarders/blob/master/build.js
01:46:00  <rch>yeah i live in north oakland
01:46:20  <jesusabdullah>rch: http://jesusabdullah.github.io/2013/02/15/hoarders.html
01:46:26  <jesusabdullah>Oh yeah, rockridge would be a lot better
01:46:36  <jesusabdullah>temescal's alright too, the "other side of the tracks" so to speak
01:46:45  <jesusabdullah>I wouldn't mind the Ashby area
01:46:46  <rch>wow
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01:52:54  <substack>rch: have you been to sudoroom?
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01:53:05  <rch>substack: sure i haven't been hanging there lately but i'm a member
01:53:14  <rch>matt and i used to do 'morning code' twice a week
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01:53:17  <substack>oh sweet
01:53:19  <rch>C at 8am
01:53:21  <substack>I'm there right now.
01:53:26  <rch>anything happening?
01:53:51  <rch>hey sorry you got mugged btw, saw that on the list
01:53:56  <substack>there's going to be a movie showing for a 6 minute film roshambeau made for a 48 hour film contest
01:54:04  <rch>huh
01:54:15  <substack>and beer bottling later too
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01:56:00  <rch>maybe i should motivate, hard when i'm so lazy
01:56:19  <thl0>so if a module is a core for only like two other modules and will not be useful anywhere else, should I publish this to npm?
01:56:43  <thl0>the only reason is to get proper dependency management and versioning
01:57:04  <thl0>i.e. using git tags I cannot do something like ~0.1.0
01:57:39  <thl0>any opinions Raynos substack chrisdickinson isaacs?
01:58:03  <owen1>thl0: you can always just push it as a seperate repo and put the git url with #1.3.4 in package.json
01:58:18  <thl0>in my case it is https://npmjs.org/package/valuepack-core
01:58:30  <thl0>owen1: but it doesn't automatically get patches that way
01:58:40  <thl0>i.e. it's locked to that exact tag
01:58:53  <thl0>I cannot do #~0.1.0 for instance
01:59:42  <owen1>true, u'll have to manualy change the package.json on every place that uses it.
01:59:59  <thl0>owen1: what I'm trying to avoid, as I said I want proper versioning
02:00:07  <thl0>including automatic patches
02:00:22  <rch>thl0: imo don't worry about it unless you're sure it's going to be the absolute least useful thing on npm
02:00:25  <owen1>automatic = npm install, right?
02:00:55  <thl0>I just feel like it's weird to put this separately on npm just for that, i.e. it provides namespaces and config that are only useful for other valuepack modules
02:01:46  <thl0>owen1: what I'm after is automatic patches when I publish a new version the next time I install
02:02:33  <thl0>rch: ok, but I feel like it kinda litters the registry, I wish we could include some info that it shouldn't show up in a search for instance
02:03:10  <owen1>i guess u can try setting up internal npm repo?
02:03:25  <thl0>rch: for now I'll just remove all the keywords to limit the chance it shows up
02:03:36  <thl0>owen1: yes, but I want others to be able to install it
02:07:07  <thl0>rch: owen1: is this clear enough (see disclaimer) >? https://github.com/thlorenz/valuepack-core
02:08:30  <rch>looks disclaimy
02:08:36  <thl0>:)
02:10:57  <owen1>thl0: yeah. i had the same dilemma on friday. i wrote a module that makes it easy for me to save into my mongodb. and it's used by two other apps (on github enterprise)
02:11:10  <owen1>i ended up using a git repo and not publishing it
02:11:56  <thl0>owen1: I already was going down that route, but certainly don't wanna have to remember going thru all deps and updating the tag
02:12:03  <thl0>so I reconsidered
02:13:13  <thl0>It'd be nice to be able to get the same semvers goodness (including automatic patches) just based on github tags cc isaacs
02:18:40  <owen1>true
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02:29:49  <Raynos>THL0: i publish everything to npm
02:31:25  <dlmanning>Tangential question: should modules relying on the --harmony flag be published to npm?
02:32:30  <jesusabdullah>I mean
02:32:34  <jesusabdullah>to what end?
02:32:42  <jesusabdullah>imo yeah, sure why not
02:32:53  <jesusabdullah>but I do have to wonder why you need the --harmony flag
02:33:01  <jesusabdullah>BUT AT WHAT COST dlmanning
02:33:03  <jesusabdullah>BUT AT WHAT COST
02:33:03  <LOUDBOT>WARNING WARNING APEIRON MELTDOWN IMMINENT SEEK SHELTER WARNING
02:33:06  <dlmanning>lol
02:33:14  <rch>ok i'm entertained
02:33:18  <dlmanning>I don't need it.
02:33:20  <jesusabdullah>oh good
02:33:33  <rch>LOUDBOT: where's your source?
02:33:33  <LOUDBOT>rch: PRESENT DAY; PRESENT TIME!
02:33:40  <rch>i see
02:33:54  <dlmanning>I've just been playing around with ES6 features for a presentation
02:34:26  <jesusabdullah>neat
02:34:44  <jesusabdullah>k back to trying to build nginx from sauce
02:35:44  <jesusabdullah>hopefully it squares up all the init sgripts automagically
02:35:51  <jesusabdullah>don't feel like writing my own init script
02:36:16  <jesusabdullah>never did do nginx but it makes sense at this juncture!
02:50:49  <substack>dlmanning: you're just going to drastically reduce the hassle of using your module by making it require harmony
02:51:17  <dlmanning>reduce?
02:51:23  <substack>*increase
02:51:28  <dlmanning>yeah
02:52:12  <rch>oh yeah that confused me too
02:52:53  <dlmanning>I'm not using harmony features because I think it's an awesome idea. I've got some concept ES6 modules and I was wondering if I should bother to put them on npm or just leave them on git
02:53:52  <dlmanning>Seems like putting them on npm implies you think someone might want to use them in production
02:54:00  <dlmanning>Which I don't think would be a great idea
02:54:36  <dlmanning>make that "production et al"
03:02:20  <jesusabdullah>dlmanning: use that tranxpiler thinger
03:02:44  <jesusabdullah>also I say publish to npm, just fuckin' go for it
03:04:46  <dlmanning>haha
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03:32:57  <Domenic_>the transpiler is super out of date :(
03:35:16  <owen1>Raynos: i was looking at process-dashboard and it really hard for me to understand what's going on there due to so many packages i am not familiar with.
03:35:33  <owen1>not giving up though (:
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11:56:11  <substack>dominictarr: https://twitter.com/wrought/status/341415514607845376/photo/1
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11:57:03  <substack>just today got the shell of an old arcade machine
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11:59:34  <dominictarr>it apprears to be operated by a steampunk in running shoes!
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12:04:31  <dominictarr>substack: I've been thinking we really need some way of testing tutorials
12:04:59  <dominictarr>like, analytics, that collects how far people get, and what mistakes they make
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17:16:21  <Raynos>owen1: you said process-dashboard was confusing
17:16:27  <Raynos>owen1: any modules in particular that are confusing
17:24:24  <owen1>Raynos: let me see..
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17:28:13  <owen1>npm packages - routes-router, http-methods, node-env, require-fresh, serve-browserify, npm-less/serve
17:28:15  <owen1>commonJS modules - module-loader
17:28:55  <owen1>it will take me an hour to go to each repo, read their readme, probably i will not undersand them so i'll have to clone each one and play with them.
17:29:21  <owen1>not saying i can't do that. just stating that from looking at this project i have no idea what it's doing.
17:29:31  <owen1>there is 0 documentation, code samples,
17:29:38  <owen1>etc.
17:30:27  <owen1>so it will take an hour or two, that's all i am saying.
17:31:15  <owen1>for example, i realize routes-router is your router, but i look at addRoute function and not sure what's going on there.
17:31:44  <owen1>i am used to 'routes' and mapleTree and never used this routes library, so it require reading it's code.
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18:30:46  <Raynos>owen1: thanks for that feedback
18:32:11  <owen1>Raynos: np. i thought u'r going to tell me to RTFM. which i will (:
18:32:23  <Raynos>owen1: any way to make it easier?
18:32:51  <Raynos>maybe a page explaining each dependency
18:32:59  <Raynos>although that might just be duplication of that dependencies README
18:33:27  <owen1>at least 1 line next to some modules/functions. also what does the app do?
18:33:47  <owen1>https://github.com/oren/node-website-template#folders-structure
18:36:09  <owen1>for example - a dashboard for managing processes. what kind of dashboard? maybe a snapshot. what is the 'flow' of the app?
18:36:48  <owen1>this app ssh into remote boxes and get some stats about the processes that running on them and uses web sockets to push this info to the browser.
18:37:02  <owen1>as example
18:37:43  <owen1>it uses the following modules - sock.js for streaming info back to the browser, mapleTree to route requests into functions,
18:37:45  <owen1>etc
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18:41:59  <owen1>also i see the browse folder and trying to guess what's going on there. i guess it's your way of creating client-side templates? i don't see any html so i guess u'r generating it from memory and return it to the client or something.
18:42:32  <owen1>now i am really curious. i'll find time in the coming days to read and understand this project.
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18:46:57  <chapel>jesusabdullah: ping
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19:50:00  <Raynos>isaacs: ping
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19:52:56  <isaacs>Raynos: pong
19:53:16  <Raynos>isaacs: I'm thinking it would be nice if npm supported "browserDependencies" field.
19:53:25  <Raynos>If it sees it all it does is merge it into the dependencies field
19:53:28  <isaacs>Raynos: what would npm do with that?
19:53:36  <isaacs>Raynos: that seems surprising
19:53:43  <Raynos>that way you can take a project with 30 deps and split them into front and back end deps
19:53:50  <isaacs>Raynos: right...
19:53:52  <Raynos>so it's purely for managing the package.json
19:53:56  <isaacs>Raynos: but they're all dependencies, right?
19:54:05  <Raynos>yes / no
19:54:14  <Raynos>yes.
19:54:23  <isaacs>Raynos: i mean, they still get installed into node_modules, etc.
19:54:32  <Raynos>it's just annoying to have one place to put them
19:54:55  <Raynos>some of the dependencies would tank and die horribly if required from node
19:55:37  <Raynos>isaacs: I don't know what the best way to handle this is, but I would have increased readability if I could split my dependencies hash into two one for front end and one for back end
19:56:10  <isaacs>Raynos: "dependencies": { "my-browser-deps": "1.x" } and then in node_modules/my-browser-deps/ you depend on all your browser stuff, and index.js does module.exports = Object.keys(require('./package.json').dependencies).forEach(function (dep) { return [dep, require(dep)] }).reduce(function (set, dep) { set[dep[0]] = dep[1]; return set }, {})
19:56:31  <isaacs>Raynos: then jquery = require('my-browser-deps').jquery
19:56:39  <Raynos>isaacs: but I want to require flatly in both front end and back end
19:56:52  <isaacs>Raynos: what if there's a dep for both front and back end?
19:56:57  <Raynos>isaacs: What I'm really asking for is a way to visually group sets of dependencies in a large package.json
19:56:58  <isaacs>Raynos: it seems like unnecessary complexity to me.
19:57:02  <isaacs>Raynos: right.
19:57:08  <isaacs>have a smaller package.json :)
19:57:18  <Raynos>some things are just complex
19:57:23  <isaacs>i know
19:57:34  <isaacs>but i'm saying, rather than having a single giant app, and a lot of tiny deps, have some mid-sized deps.
19:57:36  <Raynos>one solution is to move all the frontend code into a seperate thing
19:57:47  <isaacs>it's a org chart problem. you need some middle managemnet, it sounds like
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19:58:54  <Raynos>i dont think there is a good solution to this that doesnt add complexity :(
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20:10:37  <mbalho>jjjjohnnny: http://mohayonao.github.io/timbre.js/satie.html
20:11:42  <tmcw>sooomebody follows me on twitter :)
20:12:34  <niftylettuce> 'Does Pinterest own the word "pin"?' @ https://news.ycombinator.com/newest
20:12:38  <niftylettuce> /cc jesusabdullah ^^
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20:19:23  <niftylettuce>poo it got flagged for some reason... probably HN admin trolls
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20:41:44  <niftylettuce>we've got a rat in here
20:41:48  <niftylettuce>inbound hit from http://logs.nodejs.org/stackvm/2013-06-03
20:42:05  <niftylettuce>knocked off front page perma
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20:43:10  <chapel>I don't think it matters that much, hn is pretty lackluster as it is
20:43:25  <niftylettuce>yeah
20:43:39  <niftylettuce>the great pyramids
20:44:12  <chapel>and as you know, yc can be scammy, for all we know someone might have it out for you
20:44:38  <niftylettuce>i have confirmation that several do, with no reason why really, maybe jealousy is the issue
20:45:13  <niftylettuce>anyways, thanks for anyone that upvoted
20:45:29  * chapelwould just ignore them and do impressive stuff (not that *I* do impressive stuff) in spite of them
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21:23:54  <juliangruber>dominictarr: why did you change the api of rpc-stream to be fn([arg1, arg2], cb) instead of fn(arg1, arg2, cb)?
21:25:53  <dominictarr>because otherwise I just had [].slice.call(arguments) in more places
21:26:18  <juliangruber>but the api isn't javascripty anymore now
21:27:46  <juliangruber>i just added all that's necessary for rpc-stream to handle errors nicely, but also moved the api to the form fn(arg1, arg2, cb) because I thought that was a bug
21:27:51  <juliangruber>are you cool with making breaking changes (again) or should I port this over to the current api?
21:28:38  <dominictarr>hmm, let me have a look
21:28:42  <dominictarr>your fork?
21:29:56  <juliangruber>i'll push to a branch
21:30:15  <dominictarr>oh, now I remember
21:30:32  <dominictarr>because [].slice.call(arguments) is quite slow
21:30:57  <juliangruber>pushed, to the "error" branch
21:30:57  <juliangruber>ok
21:31:01  <dominictarr>and the args comes out of the protocol as an arrary
21:31:01  <juliangruber>then I'll revert to the old api
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21:33:19  <juliangruber>should it be (err, args) or (args) when you receive a rpc result?
21:36:12  <dominictarr>the result is still normal
21:36:22  <dominictarr>(err, args,...)
21:36:44  <dominictarr>(err, arg1, arg2, arg3, etc)
21:37:48  <juliangruber>updated the error branch
21:37:55  <juliangruber>old tests are practically untouched
21:38:06  <juliangruber>except that some have assertions instead of console.logs now
21:40:06  <dominictarr>great!
21:40:07  <juliangruber>if that looks good to you i'll merge over to master or you can do that and publish -> multilevel will have sweet error objects
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21:56:38  <jjjjohnnny>2did angbody else read the assange piece in the NYT
21:57:11  <xyxne>the one where they focus on his personal life as though it has any relevance to his career in jurnalism?
21:57:15  <xyxne>journalism*
21:57:29  <jjjjohnnny>his review of Eric Schmidt's book
21:57:39  <jjjjohnnny>http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/02/opinion/sunday/the-banality-of-googles-dont-be-evil.html?_r=0
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21:59:48  <xyxne>hah, interesting
22:00:11  <xyxne>considering their past I'm surprised they published it
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22:10:22  <jez0990>jjjjohnnny: +1, I'm amazed Assange resisted the urge to confront Schmidt on this theme when they met
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22:25:21  <dominictarr>jjjjohnnny: yeah, I saw that
22:25:57  <dominictarr>did you see the transcript of the interview between assange and schmidt?
22:27:23  <dominictarr>jez0990: in that transcript, they seemed to be getting along well
22:27:33  <dominictarr>even agreeing on a lot
22:28:49  <dominictarr>juliangruber: merged into rpc-stream@1.0.3
22:29:27  <substack>dominictarr: will I also be able to require('tacodb')(function (db) {})?
22:29:55  <dominictarr>sure, I can add that
22:30:08  <substack>nice
22:30:28  <dominictarr>substack: so, currently it wraps it in a http server + shoe
22:31:07  <dominictarr>the intension being to run it as a hosted service
22:31:09  <substack>var server = tacodb(opts, fn); server.listen(8000) would be a nice api I think
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22:31:14  <substack>yep sounds good
22:31:33  <dominictarr>right, yes that is straightforward
22:31:55  <substack>the module.exports way is a little odd
22:33:00  <dominictarr>that is so you can bundle it all and pass it to a server
22:33:26  <dominictarr>but, I guess it could just use require('tacodb') in the right way...
22:33:36  <substack>level-static is browserifiable?
22:33:43  <dominictarr>yes
22:34:01  <dominictarr>that just serves values from level as files
22:34:20  <dominictarr>with mime types based on their extensions
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22:36:46  <substack>still not sure how browserify fits in
22:39:20  <jjjjohnnny>dominictarr: when did they meet?
22:39:59  <dominictarr>jjjjohnnny: when eric was researching that book
22:40:24  <dominictarr>they met in the equdorian embassy, i think
22:40:57  <dominictarr>http://wikileaks.org/Transcript-Meeting-Assange-Schmidt.html
22:49:48  <jjjjohnnny>dominictarr: you ever hear of this test for a crypto/anonymous network where people gamble on the details of a public figure's assasination?
22:50:08  <dominictarr>yes
22:50:35  <dominictarr>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cypherpunks
22:51:26  <dominictarr>I first heard about it there
22:51:53  <dominictarr>it's just a prediction market, essentially
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22:52:20  <dominictarr>but not a very nice one
22:53:24  <jjjjohnnny>its a pretty interesting thing
22:54:41  <jjjjohnnny>i dont know we are talking about the same thing tho
22:55:06  <jjjjohnnny>as i understand it, the gamblers are not really gambling, they are just throwing their money in the pot
22:55:22  <jjjjohnnny>i guess until the money becomes serious
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22:56:55  <jjjjohnnny>it would be used on celebrities first, and then would work effectly as a deterrent
22:57:25  <jjjjohnnny>for any menace to society
22:58:26  <dominictarr>substack: when running as a service, I browserify tacodb and run it inside a node vm… which will probably also work for webworkers
22:58:51  <dominictarr>jjjjohnnny: but this is not actually a good thing, since a small portion of people have most of the money
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22:59:12  <dominictarr>so it wouldn't be menaces to society, it would be menaces to wealth
23:00:50  <jjjjohnnny>dominictarr: the bottom line is a risk level to the assassin
23:03:27  <jjjjohnnny>and a certain amount of public notieriety is probably essential to the system working
23:04:47  <jjjjohnnny>for concensus
23:06:38  <jjjjohnnny>verify the quary
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23:12:09  <jjjjohnnny>but you are right. Julian Assange would probably be murdered already.
23:17:02  <jesusabdullah>did somebody say my name???
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23:24:04  <st_luke>mbalho: congrats, that's really cool
23:24:22  <st_luke>the layout is awesome also
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23:44:11  <jesusabdullah>how's erryone doin' this afternoon?
23:44:29  <jesusabdullah>mbalho: I went to a CfA shindig up here, they mentioned your Boston trucks tracking project
23:44:39  <jesusabdullah>mbalho: "...oh yeah I remember that dataset!"
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23:56:20  <jcrugzz>anyone have experience using browserify with d3? it fails as it tries to browserify jsdom which does not seem ideal
23:57:48  <jesusabdullah>lol
23:58:22  <jcrugzz>but im sure there is a way to exclude that dependency