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00:45:21  <jesusabdullah>Domenic_: I think "more built-in types" is almost always a bad idea >_<
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02:04:20  <jjjjohnn1y>why is this canvas not drawing the line across the middle???? http://jsfiddle.net/6rFsR/
02:05:45  <jjjjohnn1y>it should draw across at the middle ie h / 2 on lines 17/18
02:08:07  <jjjjohnn1y>here is a fork w/o the parent div http://jsfiddle.net/7W7K7/
02:08:51  <jjjjohnn1y>height is obviously 200. show me the middle!
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02:17:03  <jjjjohnn1y>WTF http://jsfiddle.net/7W7K7/3/
02:17:59  <thl0>jjjjohnn1y: http://jsfiddle.net/6rFsR/1/
02:18:20  <thl0>your 100% was screwing you up aside from the fact that you put the border on the canvas not the div
02:18:40  <thl0>the canvas was bleeding over the edge
02:19:39  <jjjjohnn1y>now the line doesnt cross all the way over
02:20:09  <jjjjohnn1y>but also, what was wrong with my code?
02:20:11  <thl0>I know, but at leas it's in the middle
02:20:33  <thl0>some stuff was bleeding over (i.e. it wasn't contained in the border)
02:21:27  <jjjjohnn1y>thl0: http://jsfiddle.net/7W7K7/3/ what about
02:21:27  <thl0>from here you should be able to fix the rest -- at least part is working now -- once you percent % with exact px values you screw you yourself ;)
02:22:07  <jjjjohnn1y>using 100% width and height on a child and setting dimension with a parent div is SOP
02:22:07  <thl0>not sure - it's not using %, anyhoo gotta get back to what I was doing
02:22:14  <jjjjohnn1y>thx
02:22:19  <thl0>np
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02:39:08  <jjjjohnn1y>ok canvs doesn;t want you setting its css style param apparently
02:39:17  <jjjjohnn1y>eg canvas.style.width
02:39:28  <jjjjohnn1y>its wants you to use canvas.width
02:49:08  <Wraithan>So, correct me if I am wrong, but it appears you can't pass arguments to an npm script?
02:49:26  <Wraithan>npm run-script helper --some option
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03:06:12  <guybrush_>Wraithan: yes you are right
03:06:27  <Wraithan>ok
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04:57:00  <Raynos>isaacs: that means github prompts for my password each time
04:57:04  <Raynos>isaacs: this makes me sad
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05:11:33  <guybrush_>Raynos: i use ssh-agent
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05:18:00  <timoxley>substack I'm getting "no method 'readFileSync'" when I try to fs.readFileSync in the browser is there something special I need to do to get this working
05:19:44  <Raynos>anyone have a thing
05:19:47  <Raynos>to turn js into markdown
05:19:50  <Raynos>by the trivial transform?
05:20:33  <timoxley>got it
05:20:35  <timoxley>https://github.com/substack/brfs
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05:34:57  <rvagg>Raynos: js into markdown? what sort of js and into what sort of markdown?
05:35:10  <Raynos>the trivial transform
05:35:13  <Raynos>code into fences
05:35:15  <Raynos>comments into markdown
05:35:22  <Raynos>just like the trivial inverse
05:35:25  <Raynos>which is fences into code
05:35:28  <Raynos>markdown into comments
05:36:01  <rvagg>hm, ok,
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05:42:01  <Raynos>Anyway
05:42:03  <Raynos>I'm writing it
05:42:10  <Raynos>Going to use it for blogs
05:42:14  <Raynos>write blogs in JS, publish as markdown
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05:47:32  <rvagg>Raynos: I'm doing it with this to publish: http://github.com/rvagg/blorg
05:47:53  <rvagg>Raynos: and this to edit (with SYNTAX HIGHLIGHTING, INCLUDING CODEZ): https://github.com/rvagg/morkdown
05:48:20  <Raynos>I want ghetto editing
05:48:30  <rvagg>right, of course
05:48:53  <rvagg>cat >> post.js << __EOF__
05:51:34  <chilts>heh
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06:01:08  <Raynos>?
06:01:48  <rvagg>that's proper ghetto editing for you
06:04:57  <Raynos>https://gist.github.com/Raynos/5660752
06:05:00  <Raynos>there
06:05:02  <Raynos>js to md
06:05:06  <Raynos>now I can write articles in JS
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06:25:59  <substack>Raynos: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literate_programming
06:26:49  <Raynos>substack: I want the inverse.
06:27:01  <Raynos>code -> markdown
06:27:10  <Raynos>way easier to do shit with
06:31:49  <jjjjohnn1y>a few takes on waveform styles http://imgur.com/a/K62n2
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07:21:51  <Raynos>https://gist.github.com/Raynos/5661030
07:22:01  <Raynos>did an article on delayed computation
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07:44:42  <juliangruber>dominictarr reg-spec looks so lispy :D
07:45:10  <dominictarr>javascript _is_a lisp!
07:45:20  <juliangruber>??
07:45:41  <dominictarr>except for the syntax
07:45:59  <dominictarr>it's a lisp with infix syntax
07:47:22  <owen1>Raynos: i lost you in the .bind part ):
07:47:40  <Raynos>owen1: what about it is confusing?
07:47:47  <owen1>Raynos: it's interesting that u use the term 'delayed'
07:47:53  <timoxley>Raynos you've got some bind calls that miss that pesky first arg
07:47:58  <owen1>never heard about that term in this contex
07:48:00  <juliangruber>dominictarr is js syntax a data structure?
07:48:06  <juliangruber>does it have macros?
07:48:10  <juliangruber>I don't get your point
07:48:31  <dominictarr>okay, so no macros either
07:48:31  <juliangruber>anyways, how ready is reg-spec?
07:48:51  <dominictarr>not ready yet
07:49:18  <Raynos>timoxley: fixing
07:49:27  <owen1>Raynos: a step before the bing, where u show the code with readPackageJson and readProject,
07:50:06  <owen1>i felt like i didn't understand it since i don't know how to call those functions and i don't know their output.
07:50:43  <owen1>so i started running them in my head. but that's ok, it might me just me. it really depends who are u targeting in this post.
07:50:55  <timoxley>owen1 is it bind itself that's confusing you
07:51:07  <timoxley>Raynos perhaps include a link to https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/JavaScript/Reference/Global_Objects/Function/bind
07:51:15  <owen1>timoxley: i am actually talking about a step before the bind.
07:51:25  <owen1>i know the idea of bind/apply/call
07:51:39  <owen1>but never really used it so it's a bit hard.
07:51:40  <Raynos>owen1: its just a function you pass a callback to
07:51:43  <Raynos>like fs.readFile
07:51:49  <Raynos>readPackageJson(function (err, file) { ... })
07:51:51  <Raynos>I'll put that in
07:52:16  <owen1>u pass the callback to bind? that's new to me.
07:52:24  <owen1>i thought it's for preserving 'this'
07:52:29  <owen1>locking the context
07:52:38  <timoxley>owen1 it also takes params, which allow you to override the arguments
07:52:43  <dominictarr>juliangruber: I will be working on it today. what do you want to use it for?
07:53:00  <timoxley>owen1 which is far more useful than preserving this
07:53:08  <juliangruber>dominictarr testing level-store…but for that it would need to test the values of data events too
07:53:30  <timoxley>owen1 read that MDN link I just posted
07:53:34  <dominictarr>right - testing the values is easy
07:54:03  <dominictarr>although, I'm not sure how to integrate that yet
07:54:07  <owen1>timoxley: ok
07:54:15  <timoxley>owen1 specifically about "Partial Functions"
07:54:44  <owen1>damn. i should read 'effective js' bought that book but didn't have the time to read it.
07:55:09  <dominictarr>currently, you'll add (disabable) logging statements to your code
07:55:17  <dominictarr>and then define the reg-spec
07:56:35  <timoxley>owen1 raganwald has a bunch of great books on partial application and messing around with functions
07:56:40  <timoxley>owen1 e.g. https://leanpub.com/javascript-allonge
07:56:49  <Raynos>owen1; https://gist.github.com/Raynos/5661030#more-general-delayed-computations
07:57:27  <owen1>Raynos: so delayed computation is not the same as asyn functions?
07:57:42  <Raynos>owen1: correct
07:57:54  <Raynos>a delayed computation and an async function are only the same if they only take one argument, the callback
07:58:00  <owen1>oh. maybe you should mention the different right at the beginning of the post
07:58:17  <owen1>interesting
07:58:20  <Raynos>function readFile(uri) { return function delayedComputation(callback) { fs.readFile(uri, callback) } }
07:58:27  <juliangruber>dominictarr hmmm
07:59:19  <dominictarr>alternatively, you could add the logging via monkeypatch/wrapping in the tests
07:59:37  <Raynos>timoxley: fixed bind calls
07:59:42  <owen1>so delayedComputation is async and also delayed, since i see 1 arg and it's a callback
08:00:06  <dominictarr>but I think if the log function returns noop when logging is disabled, it will not make any perf effects
08:00:11  <timoxley>Raynos looks good
08:00:23  <Raynos>I need to write some more tooling
08:00:29  <Raynos>to make it easier to publish to gist
08:00:47  <owen1>Raynos: it seems like what u'r doing is creating a function, 'locking' it with a given url and calling it sometime in the future.
08:00:58  <Raynos>owen1: correct !
08:01:32  <owen1>so this entire construct is called delayed computation?
08:01:39  <Raynos>No
08:01:46  <Raynos>https://github.com/Raynos/continuable
08:01:51  <owen1>just the function inside?
08:01:52  <Raynos>I've given it the continuable name before
08:02:05  <Raynos>both delayed computation and continuable
08:02:07  <Raynos>are the same thing
08:03:08  <Raynos>but they are basically a function that will do computation once called with a callback
08:07:09  <owen1>Raynos: very interesting concept. i think i am using it without knowing it's name. i am passing leveldb and sublevel into a function and returning a function that will be called later - https://github.com/oren/groups/blob/master/db/insert-group.js#L13-29
08:09:37  <dominictarr>owen1: what is subs.group?
08:09:56  <owen1>it's the sublevel of groups -
08:10:20  <owen1>https://github.com/oren/groups/blob/master/db/index.js#L28
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08:10:43  <dominictarr>ah, right
08:10:53  <dominictarr>you could do this using a batch
08:10:54  <owen1>i require the index.js and it gives me a hash with all the functions that i need.
08:11:10  <dominictarr>you can insert into multiple sublevels in one batch op
08:11:10  <owen1>each function holds the db and the sublevel
08:11:42  <owen1>oh cool
08:12:22  <dominictarr>subs.group.batch([key: k, value: v, type: put, prefix: subs.groups}, {…, prefix: subs.groupNames}], cb)
08:12:32  <owen1>the problem i see with javascript is you really need to understand it (: i mean it migh be hard to maintain if u'r not experienced.
08:13:19  <owen1>even after u grok the callbacks, it's can still be confusing
08:13:59  <dominictarr>try doing this with threads...
08:14:19  <owen1>never tried it so i can't compare
08:14:31  <owen1>Thread.new or something (in ruby)
08:14:39  <dominictarr>http://www.ruby-doc.org/docs/ProgrammingRuby/html/tut_threads.html
08:15:25  <owen1>i think we'll see a lot of node and go projects working together
08:15:45  <owen1>node for i/o and go for the rest
08:16:17  <dominictarr>basically, callbacks makes it easy enough to do async that people actually do it, but threads makes it so hard that most people just do everything one after the other
08:16:55  <stagas>Raynos: I think I'm using it too. isn't it a construct of promises?
08:17:00  <owen1>i work with the guy that built unicorn. he will not touch node since it's camelcase.. WTF
08:17:22  <owen1>and it uses c++ and not c
08:17:48  <owen1>so he doesn't touch stuff he can't tinker with
08:19:07  <Raynos>stagas: its not quite promises
08:19:39  <Raynos>owen1: thats just higher order functions
08:20:00  <Raynos>stagas: delayed computation / continuables are the simplest possible notion of "a future value"
08:21:14  <stagas>Raynos: yup that's what I meant with 'construct' obviously promises are a bit more. https://github.com/stagas/promisify
08:21:49  <Raynos>stagas: I also have https://gist.github.com/Raynos/75084680af5a2862c99b
08:21:55  <Raynos>that's just a rand about promises being complected
08:22:17  <owen1>now i understand why the nodeup guys mentioned that promises uses callbacks to do their magic
08:23:22  <stagas>reading
08:31:14  <stagas>I think that only if they're treated first-class you can actually benefit from promises, otherwise you're just adding complexity for no reason
08:34:50  <Raynos>stagas: even then you still have massive complexity. I also did https://gist.github.com/Raynos/1626aca4c5940888576e
08:35:37  <stagas>nice
08:35:59  <timoxley>hey what's the easiest way to "cross platform" tell a node process to restart itself
08:37:40  <stagas>timoxley: having a watcher and process.exit() I'm not sure it can self restart
08:37:47  <Raynos>stagas: basically splitting then into it's 4 functions and reducing the loc from 100 ( https://github.com/then/promise/blob/master/index.js ) to < 50
08:38:39  <timoxley>stagas yeah I thought I could simply process.spawn detached, then kill the current process, but there's likely going to be issues with ports being open etc
08:38:45  <timoxley>ok
08:39:24  <stagas>spawn detached that's a thing too? I'm missing things
08:40:29  <timoxley>stagas see the detached option http://nodejs.org/docs/latest/api/all.html#all_child_process_spawn_command_args_options
08:40:53  <stagas>Raynos: I think your approach is saner
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08:41:25  <Raynos>-> https://twitter.com/Raynos/status/339300277247164416
08:41:44  <Raynos>stagas: at the expensive of API surface explosion
08:41:57  <Raynos>you now need to know 4 different primitives for the 4 explicit things you want to do
08:49:06  <stagas>Raynos: but now you can build on top of these other kinds of apis previously not possible because of the unification, I like it
08:51:09  <stagas>do you post that stuff anywhere or just gists
08:51:29  <stagas>Raynos: ^
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09:19:40  <juliangruber>substack defunctzombie can I make browserify expose deps as globals? so a depends on b and c and window.b should be b
09:20:13  <juliangruber>or should I create a seperate bundle for those and then in my main bundle do b.external('b')
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11:14:39  <creationix>Raynos: you came up with the syntax for continuables independent of me right?
11:15:28  <creationix>I like your chain helper from the article
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12:38:40  <dominictarr>substack: is there a tool to add testling to a project yet?
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14:49:54  <isaacs>Raynos: ?
14:50:06  <isaacs>Raynos: what's the problem?
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16:24:42  <juliangruber>dominictarr testlingify by thl0
16:24:58  <dominictarr>thanks
16:25:08  <thl0>juliangruber: :)
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18:09:03  <dominictarr>http://www.openculture.com/2012/08/ieverything_i_knowi_42_hours_of_visionary_buckminster_fuller_lectures_1975.html
18:09:53  * jolissjoined
18:10:55  <Raynos>isaacs: dont worry about it
18:10:59  <Raynos>creationix: yes
18:11:08  <Raynos>stagas: just gists
18:11:39  * isaacsnot worrying about whatever it was
18:12:37  <jcrugzz>dominctarr: nice find
18:14:25  <niftylettuce>just launched my new project ... "Prove: Phone Verification" @ https://news.ycombinator.com/newest -- can I have your upvotes? /cc pkrumins jesusabdullah
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18:19:24  <juliangruber>niftylettuce: looks very good!
18:19:32  <niftylettuce>gracias senor
18:19:51  <niftylettuce>juliangruber: can i have your upvote on HN?
18:20:04  <juliangruber>maybe turn "5¢ per credit → You're only charged for successful verifications." into "5¢ per successful verification: You only pay for what you need"
18:20:06  <juliangruber>or something
18:20:11  <juliangruber>already upvoted
18:20:30  <juliangruber>it's not clear what credits are at this point
18:21:04  <juliangruber>and maybe change "how does it work?" to "test it with your phone"
18:21:07  * jolissquit (Quit: joliss)
18:21:34  <juliangruber>and maybe move the javascript plugin row below the 3 steps thing
18:22:11  <juliangruber>"By signing up, you agree to Terms & Privacy" -> "By signing up, you agree to _our_ Terms & Privacy"
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18:40:06  <dominictarr>really interesting bit about the origins of zero here http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=o6yaSLipeWg#t=2259s
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20:01:29  <juliangruber>dominictarr: I can hardly understand his prononciation
20:02:00  <juliangruber>but i like his history: total crash -> think whil in poverty until -> bam
20:02:41  <dominictarr>totally
20:03:01  <dominictarr>it's the classic mad scientist pattern
20:03:42  <dominictarr>"total crash" sounds pretty extreme
20:03:54  <dominictarr>hmm, maybe "quit your job" isn't extreme enough.
20:05:51  <juliangruber>I'd so have fear about what to live on
20:08:02  <juliangruber>social welfare isn't bad in germany but I don't know if i really would take that
20:09:09  <dominictarr>live in a boat!
20:09:16  <thl0>if I wasn't married I'd go for it in an instance ;)
20:09:36  <juliangruber>dominictarr: what about food?
20:09:47  <thl0>I used to live as a musician on like 10K a year and was totally fine (in Germany btw juliangruber)
20:09:47  <dominictarr>food is cheap
20:09:58  <juliangruber>but you got to make money somehow
20:10:02  <thl0>I even traveled and stuff
20:10:10  <thl0>playing gigs and teaching some
20:10:12  <juliangruber>even for the smallest expenses
20:10:14  <dominictarr>get an easy parttime job
20:10:16  <juliangruber>thl0 sounds awesome!
20:10:22  <substack>juliangruber: do a kickstarter
20:10:30  <thl0>got boring though juliangruber
20:10:30  <dominictarr>or just save up, and then work for a bit
20:10:33  <juliangruber>thl0 what instrumet(s) do you play?
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20:10:48  <juliangruber>dominictarr: yeah save up and then do it is the plan
20:10:50  <thl0>substack: was thinking of doing one for this package rater thing
20:11:03  <substack>nice!
20:11:04  <thl0>juliangruber: guitar (used to play Jazz)
20:11:11  <dominictarr>thl0 you should do that.
20:11:18  <juliangruber>substack: it's not really about not doing the thing i do right now, it's more about a reboot
20:11:32  <thl0>substack: prob. not gonna do it though until I got some prototype going
20:11:33  <juliangruber>have silence for so long that you get comfortable and the mind really starts to flourish
20:11:41  <dominictarr>also, on this note...
20:12:02  <jesusabdullah>so, like, I crashed yesterday and I don't even remember when :(
20:12:05  <dominictarr>ralphtheninja: and I have been scheming on a kickstarter but with bitcoin
20:12:21  <jesusabdullah>it's really disconcerting
20:12:27  <niftylettuce>So earlier... I had a bad launch on Hacker News. Redistogo crashed and 0 traffic came through. I re-launched with an HN 1337 discount. Can you please upvote "Prove's Secret HN Easter Egg for Simple Phone Verification" at HN newest? https://news.ycombinator.com/newest -
20:12:40  <dominictarr>but the main focus being on making an iterative kickstarter
20:12:41  <thl0>substack: dominictarr: well how much do you think this kind of thing could raise - it'd be a lot of work - could keep one dev busy for a year easily to get all the features in
20:12:45  * dguttmanquit (Quit: dguttman)
20:12:45  <dominictarr>jesusabdullah: what happened?
20:13:02  <niftylettuce> /cc jesusabdullah juliangruber pkrumins chilts dominictarr guybrush_ mbalho rook2pawn ryan1 yorick tanepiper
20:13:11  <niftylettuce><3
20:13:11  <juliangruber>niftylettuce: did
20:13:27  <dominictarr>get a botnet
20:13:49  <dominictarr>or hack hn and tell me what my password was, as I forgot...
20:14:01  <juliangruber>hmm…If i'd work only 1h a day i could totally pay for everything i need
20:14:34  <thl0>dominictarr: what I'm doing would be iterative - i.e. it's useful with minimum features already, but becomes more awesome the more it grows
20:14:40  <substack>there's a guy at sudoroom who lives in a yurt in west oakland in somebody's back yard
20:15:07  <juliangruber>when i'll finally make it to the states i'll come to oakland first <3
20:15:11  <jesusabdullah>dominictarr: I passed out yesterday and I don't remember when
20:15:13  <thl0>substack: I'd totally do that, but as I said, once you are married it's not all your decision ;)
20:15:13  <jesusabdullah>dominictarr: I just woke up
20:15:15  <dominictarr>that is what I would do if I knew someone with a yard who was into that
20:15:40  <dominictarr>jesusabdullah: well, you probably needed a nap!
20:17:56  <substack>dominictarr: also matt built a terminal like in the disasteradio drop the bomb video
20:18:03  <substack>based on that video in fact
20:18:12  <substack>matt is a sudoer
20:18:38  <dominictarr>fan art
20:18:40  <dominictarr>nice!
20:18:43  <dominictarr>link?
20:18:46  <jesusabdullah>dominictarr: maybe!
20:18:48  <dominictarr>luke will love that
20:18:51  <substack>I don't think there are any links yet.
20:19:19  <substack>not sure if the computer is hooked up to it yet but the monitor is mounted in a big enclosure with a keyboard
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20:24:21  <dominictarr>thl0: the problem with kickstarter, is that it leads to the waterfall model
20:26:21  <substack>yes
20:26:32  <substack>you've got to design everything up-front
20:26:41  <jesusabdullah>The problem with investment is that it leads to the waterfall model
20:26:42  <jesusabdullah>:v
20:26:52  <substack>it's exactly the same problem yes
20:27:19  <dominictarr>so, we want to fund stuff gently
20:27:37  <dominictarr>in like 2 week chunks
20:27:41  <dominictarr>or something more like that
20:29:28  <thl0>dominictarr: substack so maybe gittip then?
20:29:43  <thl0>hard to live off that for a year though to fully focus on the project
20:29:51  <dominictarr>gittip is the other end of the scale
20:29:58  <dominictarr>but it's too nonspecific
20:30:06  <thl0>how about incremental kickstarters
20:30:11  <dominictarr>because there is a third part
20:30:22  <thl0>instead of one big one with a bunch of steps
20:30:32  <dominictarr>to make good software, you must have feedback from users
20:30:49  <thl0>it's the agile way of kickstarter - I may try that
20:31:04  <thl0>i.e. just ask for 5K or so to get the least functionality in
20:31:22  <thl0>once I get the absolute minimal prototype going
20:31:45  <thl0>the money could also be used to host the thing
20:31:49  <dominictarr>yeah, and then do it again
20:31:58  <thl0>yeah, what I was thinking
20:32:15  <thl0>that way no one has to give you all this money up front without seeing any results
20:32:31  <thl0>and you don't have to plan the entire thing
20:32:54  <thl0>I'll go for that - but first the prototype ;)
20:33:11  <dominictarr>that people have put money in, could be used to encourage them to give feedback
20:33:41  <thl0>i.e. to prioritize the next kickstarter?
20:35:09  <dominictarr>exactly
20:44:33  <chrisdickinson>my friend pays all of his project's server costs via gittip
20:45:45  <jesusabdullah>http://i.imgur.com/hOZIcAW.jpg
20:46:20  <mikolalysenko>gittip doesn't seem like it is really big enough to sustain large projects
20:46:34  <mikolalysenko>it is a nice idea though
20:46:49  <chrisdickinson>it seems appropriate for open source projects for hosting -- the aforementioned site is http://readthedocs.org/
20:46:53  <mikolalysenko>I think in general it needs to be easier to buy stuff online
20:46:53  <jesusabdullah>mikolalysenko I stumbled onto your web site yesterday and it's kinda eerie how similar our backgrounds are
20:47:00  <jesusabdullah>mikolalysenko: except I started in ME not CS
20:47:07  <mikolalysenko>jesusabdullah: well, I had the opposite experience
20:47:20  <jesusabdullah>yeah, like this kinda weird dual
20:47:27  <mikolalysenko>although in undergrad all my buddies were ME so it kind of just happened
20:47:46  <jesusabdullah>hah
20:47:50  <dominictarr>chrisdickinson: what are the server costs?
20:48:01  <jesusabdullah>One time I proctored a thermodynamics midterm
20:48:09  <jesusabdullah>and then went to a bonfire with my younger brother and his friends
20:48:19  <jesusabdullah>and it turned out that half of his friends were taking that class
20:48:21  <chrisdickinson>not exactly sure but afaik http://gittip.com/readthedocs/ covers it
20:48:29  <jesusabdullah>"oh hey how'd your exam go?" "oh it went alright"
20:49:15  <paul_irish>mikolalysenko: have you heard about requestAutocomplete ? it's looking to make things much easier for buying online
20:49:19  <jesusabdullah>it was pretty sweet
20:50:24  <mikolalysenko>paul_irish: no, I haven't heard of it, but it sounds good. do you have a link?
20:51:23  <mikolalysenko>jesusabdullah: yeah, though I find meeting up with my students outside of class pretty awkward
20:51:44  <jesusabdullah>haha
20:51:47  <jesusabdullah>I was cool with it
20:51:51  <jesusabdullah>we drank beers, bonfired
20:51:53  <jesusabdullah>had a good time
20:51:58  <jesusabdullah>they weren't really "my students" in this case
20:52:06  <jesusabdullah>though, I was a TA for a lab class
20:52:15  * AvianFlujoined
20:52:15  <jesusabdullah>and I was only a year or two older than the kids taking it so
20:52:18  <jesusabdullah>we were already all friends
20:52:20  <paul_irish>mikolalysenko: http://blog.alexmaccaw.com/requestautocomplete may be best. there is also a google io video and a docs page
20:52:20  <jesusabdullah>THAT was fun
20:52:27  <dominictarr>mikolalysenko: the problem is the security model of credit cards
20:52:54  <dominictarr>or rather, the incredible lack thereof
20:53:12  <jesusabdullah>wat is securitey
20:53:51  <mikolalysenko>dominictarr: yeah, I understand, but for buyers it totally makes sense
20:54:03  <mikolalysenko>dominictarr: just for those who are selling stuff it sucks
20:54:11  <mikolalysenko>dominictarr: bitcoins seem to have the opposite problem
20:54:19  <dominictarr>security is writing down your password on a bit of card, and then carrying it around and hoping you don't leave it some where or it gets stolen
20:54:35  <dominictarr>mikolalysenko: yes. it takes two to tango
20:54:38  <mikolalysenko>dominictarr: in practice it doesn't really matter if your credit card gets stolen
20:54:49  <yorick>niftylettuce: bah, that was some terrible self-promotion and not even interesting
20:54:56  <mikolalysenko>dominictarr: card holders in the us are legally not obligated to pay for fraudulent charges
20:55:01  <niftylettuce>lol
20:55:04  <dominictarr>yes
20:55:08  <mikolalysenko>dominictarr: so banks just roll back transactions and sellers get hit with chargebacks
20:55:09  <niftylettuce>yorick: sorry bout dat
20:55:18  <yorick>I go to HN for interesting things, not for discounts without telling me what they're for
20:55:25  <dominictarr>yes, and that is the problem
20:55:29  <yorick>I get discounts with my grocery purchases already
20:55:41  <dominictarr>it forces the enforcement to the merchants, banks
20:56:07  <dominictarr>where as with cash, it's up to the carrier
20:56:57  <mikolalysenko>dominictarr: yeah. I think the killer app for bitcoins is online transactions
20:57:09  <dominictarr>also, since there is a processing fee, that cuts into profits on low margin sales
20:57:17  <mikolalysenko>dominictarr: as a seller, you are crazy today if you don't accept bitcoins
20:57:50  <jesusabdullah>well
20:57:52  <dominictarr>also, it could potentially way way way easier to set up a thing to process bitcoin transactions
20:57:53  <jesusabdullah>if I were Amazon, say
20:57:57  <jesusabdullah>and I wanted to accept bitcoins
20:58:24  <jesusabdullah>then I'd have a problem where I had a bunch of bitcoins and I didn't consider them liquid enough for the kinds of things I wanted to buy cause my suppliers don't accept btc and neither do my employees
20:58:50  <jesusabdullah>so then it's like, "oh greeaat mtgox is being flooded by a bunch of Amazon's "I need real dollars" situations
20:59:11  <jesusabdullah>I think the tipping point for btc is going to be when someone's salary is paid in them
20:59:13  <dominictarr>nothing as big as amazon is gonna jump on something as controversal as bitcoins
20:59:19  <substack>internet archive pays some of its employees partly in bitcoin if they request it
20:59:20  <yorick>niftylettuce: also, phone number verification is teh evil
20:59:29  <dominictarr>plus, from their point of view, hardly anyone uses bitcoins
20:59:34  <yorick>(unless you don't want to spam unsuspecting people)
21:00:02  <mikolalysenko>jesusabdullah: dominictarr yeah, the real issue is getting enough liquidity in the bitcoin market to make transactions feasible
21:00:13  <jesusabdullah>dominictarr: yeah, I just picked them as a seller that wouldn't be crazy to not accept btc
21:00:16  <yorick>oh, they deleted it too
21:00:23  <dominictarr>agree
21:00:36  * paul_irishchanged nick to paul_irish_
21:00:52  <dominictarr>I think the problem is more that there arn't to earn a living on bitcoins
21:01:22  <dominictarr>transfering into fiat currency probably isn't gonna get really really easy
21:01:46  <jesusabdullah>I bet someone's gonna accept btc as paycheck relatively soon
21:02:10  <chapel>jesusabdullah: make a payroll service that pays in btc
21:02:11  <dominictarr>not easier than getting a credit card
21:02:36  <dominictarr>what bitcoins can do, is expand a niche that credit cards can't fil
21:02:55  <mikolalysenko>yeah, the real issue with bitcoin is that as a buyer I don't see any compelling reason to use it unless I don't have any other options
21:03:07  <mikolalysenko>since credit cards are strictly safer
21:03:24  <dominictarr>yeah, unless you where a crypto nerd, probably don't have any
21:03:44  <jesusabdullah>mikolalysenko: sick iphone app?
21:03:57  <mikolalysenko>jesusabdullah: haha, maybe
21:03:59  <jesusabdullah>actually I could totally see that working
21:03:59  <dominictarr>credit cards are an aweful UX
21:04:09  <jesusabdullah>my aunt and grandma have these "points" apps on their phones
21:04:26  <jesusabdullah>they walk into a store that does it and whip out their phones, and if the gps lines up they can "get like 50 points"
21:04:35  <jesusabdullah>and then redeem them elsewhere, like at Starbucks or something
21:04:42  <jesusabdullah>s/points/bitcoins/
21:04:54  <niftylettuce>yorick: share me your grocery discounts thx
21:04:55  <jesusabdullah>you just have a "wallet" app
21:04:57  <niftylettuce>:)
21:05:09  <jesusabdullah>that shows a scancode on the "pay" page
21:05:12  <yorick>niftylettuce: well today we got 10% off on a carwash
21:05:18  <dominictarr>apple doesn't allow bitcoin wallet app, unfortunately
21:05:28  <jesusabdullah>bastards
21:05:32  <dominictarr>because it doesn't work with their business model
21:05:34  <jesusabdullah>well, mobile "app" then
21:05:47  <dominictarr>hence why app stores are a bad idea....
21:06:15  <mikolalysenko>even app not withstanding, it is still hard to buy bitcoins
21:06:39  <mikolalysenko>like unreasonably so, you need to use escrow services which are kind of scary and complicated
21:07:34  <jesusabdullah>"start an escrow service fo' all the right reasons"
21:07:35  <mikolalysenko>and only a fool would convert credit cash into btc, since you'd just get scammed into oblivion by chargebacks
21:07:41  <jesusabdullah>"set up shop at da top of four seasons"
21:07:51  <jesusabdullah>mikolalysenko: maximum amount imo
21:07:53  <juliangruber>dominictarr: made up your mind about what hardware/os to use?
21:08:03  <jesusabdullah>mikolalysenko: also prefer debit
21:08:11  * num9quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
21:08:20  <dominictarr>juliangruber: I kinda just decided that the web is the os
21:08:54  <juliangruber>yeah
21:08:57  <substack>the web is the port city full of smugglers where anything goes
21:09:12  <substack>it's where you can get anything you want so long as you know where to get it
21:09:13  <juliangruber>so the actual os doesn't matter as long as it has chrome and a term?
21:09:24  <juliangruber>:D
21:09:29  <juliangruber>substack you always kill it
21:09:43  <dominictarr>juliangruber: yeah. for now.
21:10:03  <dominictarr>we (humanity) can do better
21:10:30  <dominictarr>but that is the best parts of what we have now
21:10:35  <juliangruber>we need distributed web- email, irc, editors, etc...
21:10:48  <juliangruber>for that to work
21:10:49  <substack>email is *already* distributed
21:10:53  <substack>fundamentally
21:10:56  <juliangruber>true
21:11:05  <dominictarr>yes, and get better abstractions
21:11:08  <substack>it's just that it's a massive pain to set up your own email server
21:11:23  <juliangruber>but a email client that you can host yourself, that doesn't suck
21:11:31  <substack>yep
21:11:32  <mikolalysenko>(also spam filters tend to automatically bin emails from smaller hosts...)
21:11:35  <substack>do a kickstarter for it
21:11:49  <dominictarr>like check this out http://zerovm.org/wiki/The_Cloud_Hypervisor
21:11:54  <dominictarr>that is the right idea
21:11:54  <substack>mikolalysenko: I haven't run into that much actually
21:12:05  <substack>sending emails with the `mail` command etc
21:12:52  <dominictarr>the real problem is the incentive models that cause certain software to be created
21:13:12  <dominictarr>in stackvm we make software for fun,
21:13:24  <mikolalysenko>substack: weird, though I did have that problem with a small website that I set up for a lab project
21:13:28  <juliangruber>substack: no kickstarter now, my new job already begins in a week :D
21:13:40  <dominictarr>but on the outside, people make software to earn a living
21:13:44  <thl0>juliangruber: you could do a small one
21:14:01  <thl0>and see how that goes - that's what I'm gonna do most likely
21:14:02  <dominictarr>so, we need to find a way to incentivise the right kind of software
21:14:06  <substack>dominictarr: which just makes is really easy to have a huge impact
21:14:18  <juliangruber>oh, and i think, we shouldn't reimplement existing things, like mail or irc, but rather build the thing that's the future and add transports or compatibility layers for the old networks
21:14:36  <dominictarr>agree
21:14:44  <juliangruber>also more fun
21:14:57  <mikolalysenko>paul_irish_: also, requestAutoComplete looks pretty awesome. I will probably consider using it in my future projects
21:14:59  <dominictarr>otherwise you are just preserving the bad ideas
21:15:14  <juliangruber>yes
21:15:27  <dominictarr>instead, we need to build _past_ them
21:15:30  <juliangruber>and they're so redundant too!
21:15:37  <dominictarr>so we can be post-email
21:15:44  <juliangruber>mail, twitter, irc…always the same thing, just different limitations
21:16:00  <dominictarr>well, there is one really good thing about email
21:16:10  <dominictarr>it's a protocol that no one owns
21:17:01  <juliangruber>so we need a way to specify protocols that noone owns?
21:17:25  <dominictarr>I think open source will tend to that
21:17:36  <dominictarr>implementation -> spec
21:17:43  * tilgovijoined
21:17:53  <dominictarr>as long as there is multiple implementations
21:17:54  <juliangruber>then we don't have a problem
21:18:13  <dominictarr>but like fb or twitter <- not protocols
21:18:18  <juliangruber>like, we already know how to build the next kind of messaging thing
21:18:24  <juliangruber>we just need time
21:18:26  <juliangruber>and tacodb :D
21:18:42  <juliangruber>and hyperstream, obviously
21:19:03  <dominictarr>anyway, bitcoin is something we should use too, because it's opensource money
21:19:44  <mikolalysenko>yeah, I think bitcoin makes a lot of sense, though it is going to be tough to implement it
21:19:56  <dominictarr>agree.
21:20:03  <mikolalysenko>and it could very easily fail if governments crack down it hard
21:20:15  <juliangruber>if they do that
21:20:28  <juliangruber>we put all our money together
21:20:31  <juliangruber>and get an isle
21:20:34  <juliangruber>and call it stackvm
21:20:36  <mikolalysenko>basically if it becomes impossible or difficult to convert bitcoins to other currencies, then it will just die
21:20:37  <dominictarr>but then, what about bittorrent?
21:20:42  <substack>juliangruber: iceland
21:20:55  <substack>they already have 3 pirate party MPs in the althing
21:21:05  <juliangruber>:O
21:21:08  <dominictarr>substack: no. this is the stackvm island
21:21:09  <dominictarr>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball's_Pyramid
21:21:11  <juliangruber>shup up and take my papers
21:21:21  <dominictarr>we just have to liberate it from Australia
21:21:44  <juliangruber>does it internet there?
21:23:07  <dominictarr>aha, we'll have to lay another cable
21:23:11  <dominictarr>or 3
21:24:10  <juliangruber>so shalt it be
21:24:25  <juliangruber>fuck, nodeconf is 1000$?
21:25:06  <dominictarr>you gotta be fast, to get the early bird ticket,
21:25:16  <dominictarr>that was only 500 euros
21:25:37  <juliangruber>oh
21:25:48  <dominictarr>which still, is a lot
21:25:49  <juliangruber>is their call for speakers closed already?
21:26:35  <dominictarr>http://nodeconf.eu/
21:27:17  <juliangruber>i can't really tell
21:27:18  <juliangruber>but looks like
21:27:28  <dominictarr>oh, was that what you are talking about?
21:27:58  <juliangruber>yes :D
21:30:08  <substack>high ticket prices like that unfortunately are mostly going to attract people who already have proper jobs
21:30:17  <substack>who tend to be less interesting
21:31:27  <mikolalysenko>yeah, $1000 is a bit much for me
21:31:40  <mikolalysenko>(not that I am necessarily the most interesting guy!)
21:31:43  * tilgoviquit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
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21:32:22  <substack>I don't like how much programmers are paid.
21:32:23  <mikolalysenko>but, I only work part time and the grad student stipend doesn't really give me the luxury to fly out wherever I want
21:32:36  <substack>it just breeds complacency
21:32:38  <juliangruber>substack: it's crazy
21:33:02  <juliangruber>exactly that just happened to me over the last half year
21:33:41  <dominictarr>substack: yeah, or their company can pay
21:33:46  <substack>why can't we have another dot com bust already
21:33:53  <mikolalysenko>substack: are you complaining that they get paid too much or too little?
21:34:01  <substack>mikolalysenko: too much
21:34:27  <dominictarr>I paid to go to the first nodeconf $500 + $1500 airline tickets
21:34:29  <mikolalysenko>substack: really? I think the extra money is nice. too little cash makes it hard to start a family and settle down
21:34:33  <substack>it makes the corporate life too appealing versus the alternatives
21:35:19  <substack>mikolalysenko: the idea of starting a family and settling down is personally revolting to me
21:35:40  <substack>I just want to die penniless in a gutter like edgar allen poe
21:35:57  <mikolalysenko>haha, ok. I don't think I want to join you on that project
21:36:03  <dominictarr>like a true genius!
21:36:08  <mikolalysenko>but if that floats your boat then go for it!
21:36:24  <chapel>substack is an artist in the truest sense of the word
21:36:55  <juliangruber>having family is kinda difficult with that thinking, that's true
21:37:20  <dominictarr>unless they are illegitimate children
21:37:23  <substack>an increasing number of my peer group are homeless right now, so that colors my perspective
21:37:29  <dominictarr>or robots, maybe
21:37:37  <mikolalysenko>if anything, I think the real problem is that non-programming jobs are not paid nearly enough
21:37:45  <dominictarr>or clones of substack in petre dishes
21:37:56  <substack>mikolalysenko: yes also that
21:38:18  <substack>but I really don't even like the idea of jobs
21:38:20  <chapel>I definitely think there should be a universal base income
21:38:33  <dominictarr>or rather, that a tiny proportion of totally unproductive jobs are astronomically over paid
21:38:44  <thl0>I think that the problem is that jobs that are meaningless (i.e. to help people move money and get rich while doing it) are paid way to high compared to other jobs
21:39:05  <chapel>substack: I agree to a certain point there, we should be progressing into a society where people do what they want/need to do and money isn't a concern because base needs are taken care of
21:39:08  <thl0>you have to take quite a pay cut to redirect your attention
21:39:14  <chapel>thl0: definitely
21:39:21  <dominictarr>what _is_ money anyway?
21:39:28  <chapel>thl0: middlemen jobs are pretty meaningless usually
21:39:31  <thl0>not good - means that lots of awesome devs contribute to meaningless projects
21:39:49  <thl0>just cuz they like to get paid well while doing it
21:40:16  <thl0>felt the same as a musician, i.e. everyone takes it for granted and doesn't give you appropriate pay
21:40:43  <thl0>same seems to be true for open source and more idealistic projects in general
21:41:00  <dominictarr>to abandon the moderately comfortable job, that is socially ordained as "what you do", takes considerable nerve
21:41:18  <thl0>dominictarr: and is easier if it affects you only
21:41:22  <dominictarr>people might think you are crazy, and you have to not care
21:41:29  <dominictarr>thl0: yes.
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21:41:39  <chapel>thl0: music is a separate thing, too many people are shooting for the 1 in a million lottery, like startups
21:42:06  <substack>chapel: you can already live that way by dumpster diving and urban camping
21:42:13  * nicholas_joined
21:42:25  <chapel>substack: but the stress involved to live that way is not suitable for most people
21:42:33  <substack>stress?
21:42:47  <dominictarr>you never know till you try
21:43:34  <shama>mikolalysenko: starting a family is hardly settling down... kids are nuts, at least mine are :)
21:43:36  <chapel>substack: well compared to the standard mid to high paying job lifestyle
21:44:05  <substack>of commuting every day to an office and dealing with other people?
21:44:06  <thl0>chapel: I can tell you from experience that the higher level your lifestyle gets, the more stressed you get
21:44:09  <chapel>substack: having to constantly worry about food and where you are sleeping can be stressful
21:44:12  <substack>seems like THAT would be the stressful way of life
21:44:39  <chapel>thl0 substack depends on your perspective
21:44:55  <chapel>I've been homeless with no income, I didn't enjoy it
21:46:19  <thl0>dominictarr: btw can you shorten the incubation period of kick starters?
21:46:27  <dominictarr>I lived rough for 2.5 years
21:46:29  <mikolalysenko>shama: yeah, I can imagine! but still kids are expensive, and take a lot of work
21:46:41  <thl0>i.e. it wouldn't make much sense to have an ask for 5K last as long as one for 100K
21:46:43  <dominictarr>I had a great time!
21:46:52  * tilgovijoined
21:47:09  <chapel>I think one thing that makes that type of living harder is having a SO or kids
21:47:13  <dominictarr>thl0: if I was building this, I'd make it considerable different from kickstarter
21:47:28  <dominictarr>probably just have it kick in once the amount is met
21:47:36  <thl0>ah
21:47:44  * shuaibquit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
21:48:21  <dominictarr>allowing radical over funding just encorages problem behaviours
21:48:41  <substack>yes!
21:49:31  <dominictarr>some over funding is good, because then you get a buffer to experiment
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21:50:04  <thl0>I'd like to find a way to make all corporations using open source to make even more money to pay up
21:50:08  <dominictarr>but that should probably a fixed percentage like 50% of time experimenting
21:50:33  <thl0>just have no clue how
21:50:55  <thl0>besides unpublishing a module and taking a ransome to put it back :P
21:51:07  * mikolalysenkoquit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
21:51:27  <dominictarr>what about a temporary gpl
21:51:33  <dominictarr>it's gpl for one month
21:51:36  <dominictarr>then mit
21:51:47  <dominictarr>for comersial use
21:51:56  <dominictarr>so you have to pay to get the patches
21:52:01  <thl0>dominictarr: no one would use it - the lawyers would start crying
21:52:08  <shama>fwiw, every company I worked for that paid above average sucked. Everyone was always more concerned on where to go for lunch than wanting to talk about code. Working with your friends is way worth the reduced pay, at least my 2 cents.
21:52:39  <dominictarr>thl0: maybe just don't worry about it
21:52:58  <dominictarr>or maybe...
21:53:10  <thl0>dominictarr: the best way to make money in open source is to publish something very crappy, then convince everyone that it's great and later sell support consulting
21:53:29  <thl0>i.e. lots of Java products are like that like Alfresco (OMG)
21:53:31  <dominictarr>look it like: being able to pay means being able to focus attension of specific problems your are interested in
21:53:49  <dominictarr>thl0: yes, I've worked with systems like that before.
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21:54:10  <dominictarr>comically horrible
21:54:14  <dominictarr>like, north korea scale absurd
21:54:15  <mikolalysenko>ack battery died
21:54:27  <thl0>dominictarr: :)
21:54:55  <dominictarr>next time I'm in NY you can buy me a beer and i'll tell you all about them!
21:55:04  <thl0>dominictarr: Deal!
21:55:21  * defunctzombiechanged nick to defunctzombie_zz
21:57:20  <thl0>dominictarr: aren't you coming to nodeconf?
21:57:33  <dominictarr>yes. see you there?
21:57:42  <thl0>sure :)
21:58:13  <dominictarr>sweet!
21:58:36  <thl0>maybe they got beer there as well ;)
21:59:07  <thl0>and hopefully by that time I'm further along with my leveldb project to have something to show and maybe hack on it together
21:59:23  <jjjjohnn1y>i have a license also called the MIT license that excludes any company with more than 30 employees
21:59:55  <jjjjohnn1y>and I have a license that has several parts written in disappearing ink
22:01:52  * shuaibquit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/)
22:05:03  <dominictarr>johnny and the incredible shrinking print!
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22:08:19  <jesusabdullah>Nexxy: My other two guesses are "attended a wedding" or "got married" http://instagram.com/p/Z3wtHDk7uy/
22:09:03  <jesusabdullah>Nexxy: I thought you were married already >_< congratulations and I hope it was wonderful
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22:11:12  <dominictarr>substack: oh yeah, did you want to speak at oredev?
22:11:12  <jjjjohnn1y>substack: does browserify do require.resolve?
22:12:03  <dominictarr>jjjjohnn1y: most things I'm imagining you'd want that for would break for another reason...
22:12:05  <jesusabdullah>more coffee? more coffee.
22:12:23  <dominictarr>like if you require.resolve(variable)
22:12:59  <jjjjohnn1y>dominictarr: i thought it was for resolving to wherever some module is hidden
22:13:43  <dominictarr>it returns the absolute path of the file that it would have loaded if you did require(…)
22:14:15  <jjjjohnn1y>dominictarr: i cant tell whats happening, but what i var dir = require.resolve('someModule') and browserify it, "dir" is undefined
22:15:01  <dominictarr>if you ran that in node, you wouldn't get a dir
22:15:28  <jjjjohnn1y>no i would get a string path
22:15:35  <dominictarr>you'd probably get '/.../node_modules/someModule/index.js'
22:15:47  <jjjjohnn1y>browserify seems to ignote it
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22:16:23  <dominictarr>does it throw?
22:16:29  <substack>dominictarr: oredev seemed a bit odd, are they covering travel or is that taken care of with the training fees?
22:16:54  <jjjjohnn1y>no
22:17:32  <dominictarr>I think their suggestion is that one of us can speak, and one do the training, but they'll fly and accomedate us both
22:17:52  <dominictarr>that is the impression I get
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22:41:20  <dominictarr>substack: If you want to take the talk, I'm interested in the training.
22:41:46  <dominictarr>I want to try something where I can get more feedback from my audience
22:42:11  <jesusabdullah>I like the idea of doing trainings too
22:42:27  <substack>dominictarr: ok that sounds good
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22:49:04  <jjjjohnn1y>lol https://github.com/marijnh/CodeMirror/pull/1555
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22:52:01  <jesusabdullah>wut
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23:00:38  <mikolalysenko>another blog post: http://0fps.wordpress.com/2013/05/28/cache-oblivious-array-operations/
23:00:56  <mikolalysenko>this is the one I actually wanted to write last time, but I ended up having to write the simple one instead
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23:22:46  <dominictarr>substack: ralphtheninja juliangruber this looks interesting http://www.matasano.com/articles/crypto-challenges/
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23:29:47  <ralphtheninja>cool
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23:32:17  <mikolalysenko>also reddit link: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1f8d1i/cache_oblivious_array_operations/
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23:59:03  <dominictarr>substack: actually, after rereading that email, he wants a training on "node good practices"?
23:59:27  <substack>I read that as "use core abstractions"
23:59:40  <substack>"good" is sufficiently subjective to be completely open-ended