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03:40:01  <mbalho>jjjjohnnny: http://matt-diamond.com/drone.html
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14:01:43  <defunctzombie>isaacs: is it possible to have node/npm installed in some global location, but to have "npm install -g" install to user's home folders or some such?
14:02:04  <isaacs>defunctzombie: sure
14:02:20  <defunctzombie>isaacs: some npm config thing I imagine?
14:02:21  <isaacs>defunctzombie: npm i foo -g --prefix=~/blerg/bloo
14:02:36  <isaacs>defunctzombie: installs to ~/blerg/bloo/lib/node_modules and ~/blerg/bloo/bin
14:02:46  <defunctzombie>isaacs: is there a way to bake that into a config file versus typing it out?
14:02:51  <defunctzombie>like in $HOME/.npmrc ?
14:02:57  <isaacs>defunctzombie: all cli configs can go in .npmrc, yes
14:03:04  <isaacs>defunctzombie: npm help config explains all
14:03:04  <defunctzombie>cool
14:03:10  <defunctzombie>gracias
14:04:00  <defunctzombie>trying to find a nice way to "deploy" node to a server to make it available to all but still have npm install -g work for local users
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14:58:17  <defunctzombie>Raynos: do I have the perms to publish engine.io-stream?
14:58:28  <defunctzombie>Raynos: I merged the wip-refactor branch and the example seems to work
14:58:46  <defunctzombie>Raynos: would prefer to test using testling but the server based testing aspect seems unfinished
15:07:21  <defunctzombie>holy jesus, we need to purge coffeescript from our lands. coffeescript seems to be the only user base that wants to "inter operate" Everything else realizes it is a separate language and makes its own tools
15:09:13  <dominictarr>coffeescript is the same language, it's just a different syntax.
15:13:16  <defunctzombie>dominictarr: that is a different language
15:13:30  <defunctzombie>it has different semantics, syntax, etc
15:13:36  <defunctzombie>it is a completely different language
15:13:45  <defunctzombie>substack: https://github.com/shtylman/node-browser-resolve/issues/19#issuecomment-17399573
15:13:47  <dominictarr>the semantics are nearly the same
15:13:54  <dominictarr>it's more like a different dialect.
15:14:05  <defunctzombie>substack: should add, except for coffeescript haha
15:14:24  <defunctzombie>dominictarr: this does not translate to spoken languages the same way
15:14:33  <defunctzombie>dominictarr: dialects are different programming styles
15:14:42  <defunctzombie>dominictarr: Coffeescript IS a different language
15:14:56  <defunctzombie>and a shitty one at that
15:15:11  <defunctzombie>so I don't care one bit about it and I don't have to :)
15:15:12  <dominictarr>with human languages the distinction isn't as clear.
15:15:20  <defunctzombie>I do not encourage people to use it nor do I want to support the use of it
15:15:30  <defunctzombie>I think it is a mistake to rely on it
15:15:33  <dominictarr>thing is, I can mostly just read coffeescript.
15:15:52  <dominictarr>it's weird and ugly, sure.
15:15:55  <defunctzombie>so can I, cause I have read enough languages that are the same
15:16:00  <dominictarr>but I can understand it.
15:16:04  <defunctzombie>but again, that doesn't mean I need to encourage it
15:16:29  <dominictarr>sure, but in this case, browserify is just trying to be like node
15:16:32  <dominictarr>and node does this
15:16:46  <dominictarr>and that is an objective criteria
15:17:07  <dominictarr>"coffeescript is ugly" isn't,
15:17:15  <dominictarr>although I do agree with you.
15:17:20  <defunctzombie>dominictarr: I actually don't care about that aspect either, I just like the aspect of bundling code with require calls
15:17:32  <dominictarr>yes.
15:17:33  <defunctzombie>and given it is "javascript" that is what I expect it to work on
15:18:10  <dominictarr>it's a better thing that coffeescripters are using require, and bundling, than them using something else
15:18:25  <defunctzombie>don't really care actually haha
15:18:30  <dominictarr>or just writing plain js and not bundling.
15:18:39  <defunctzombie>I mean, I care when people ask
15:18:45  <defunctzombie>but otherwise, they can do whatever they want
15:18:55  <defunctzombie>or whatever works for them
15:18:57  <dominictarr>the true objective here has got to be: defeat es6 modules
15:19:02  <defunctzombie>hahaha
15:19:14  <dominictarr>cos fuck that shit
15:19:18  <defunctzombie>my true objective is to stop using JS
15:19:28  <defunctzombie>but I have no better language/framework than js/node right now
15:19:30  <dominictarr>they don't even listen to the people who use modulse!
15:19:32  <dominictarr>true
15:19:37  <defunctzombie>and don't have anywhere near the time to build it
15:19:46  <dominictarr>js has the best distribution story at the moment
15:19:49  <defunctzombie>yes
15:20:29  <dominictarr>if there was a "browser" that was a vm
15:20:37  <dominictarr>and you got like, a smartos zone
15:20:41  <defunctzombie>heh
15:20:50  <dominictarr>and people could just type bitfloor.com
15:20:50  <defunctzombie>I actually don't mind "compile to js"
15:21:01  <defunctzombie>I think compile to asm.js is perfectly fine for "browser" use
15:21:04  <dominictarr>then you could write your application is assembly!
15:21:10  <defunctzombie>since we aren't gonna get anything better anytime soon
15:21:25  <dominictarr>yes. I am also looking forward to asm.js
15:21:45  <dominictarr>we'll just rewrite the kernel in it
15:21:50  <dominictarr>and get rid of C.
15:21:51  <defunctzombie>I just think flow control/language wise no one is thinking about how to actually make things easier/better/simpler
15:21:58  <defunctzombie>some are, but not many and it is slow going
15:22:01  <defunctzombie>which is ok
15:22:26  <dominictarr>and node is the only thing that has a really simple story about paralell
15:22:36  <dominictarr>stuff like fibers look simple
15:22:39  <defunctzombie>people are off building cool shit, which is way more important
15:22:48  <dominictarr>but they only make the easy case easier
15:22:58  <dominictarr>yeah, that is the true test.
15:23:06  <dominictarr>build something awesome.
15:23:26  <defunctzombie>fibers is cool
15:23:33  <defunctzombie>but still approaches the problem from too high a level
15:23:47  <defunctzombie>the end user should NEVER need to deal with any of this
15:24:30  <dominictarr>any of what?
15:24:35  <dominictarr>paralellism?
15:24:37  <defunctzombie>fibers/coros directly
15:24:41  <defunctzombie>yea
15:24:55  <dominictarr>I don't think you can abstract that away… not yet anyway.
15:25:07  <defunctzombie>you can in the cases where we use "callbacks" today
15:25:22  <dominictarr>I think we just need better tools for building correct async
15:25:25  <defunctzombie>and it isn't even all that hard
15:25:34  <dominictarr>promises?
15:25:39  <defunctzombie>nope
15:25:43  <defunctzombie>promises are stupid too
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15:25:56  <defunctzombie>the goal should be less typing, less thinking about APIs etc
15:25:59  <defunctzombie>not more
15:26:20  <dominictarr>yes, well, streams then.
15:26:45  <defunctzombie>not streams either
15:26:57  <defunctzombie>streams are just an abstraction on top of events
15:27:03  <defunctzombie>they are just events with specific names
15:27:10  <defunctzombie>I wrote about it a bit here: https://gist.github.com/shtylman/5267456
15:27:24  <defunctzombie>but it doesn't make much sense and have yet to make a proof of concept
15:27:57  <dominictarr>this isn't used https://gist.github.com/shtylman/5267456#file-example-js-L45
15:28:27  <defunctzombie>none of it is really valid.. it was just some thinking
15:28:50  <defunctzombie>all you have to imagine is that you have 1 thread
15:29:02  <defunctzombie>and that calls like fs.read don't need two versions
15:29:15  <defunctzombie>they only need the version that returns the shit you wanted to read or throws on error
15:29:21  <dominictarr>reading a file and then reading another file is not a big deal.
15:29:27  <dominictarr>that is the simple case
15:29:34  <defunctzombie>simple cases matter
15:29:41  <defunctzombie>if I need to read 5 files
15:29:53  <defunctzombie>I don't want to think about the "sync" or "async" way or whatever
15:29:57  <defunctzombie>I just want it to happen
15:30:28  <dominictarr>but optimizing for the simple case is counter productive if it makes the hard case even harder.
15:30:37  <defunctzombie>what is the hard case?
15:30:44  <dominictarr>doing things in parallel
15:30:52  <dominictarr>like merging two streams
15:31:01  <defunctzombie>you can do that too
15:31:05  <dominictarr>or having multiple streams that interact
15:31:08  <defunctzombie>nothing is actually in "parallel"
15:31:14  <defunctzombie>it is all 1 thread
15:31:19  <defunctzombie>it just looks like it is in parallel
15:31:32  <defunctzombie>again, streams are not the level it should be talked about
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15:31:45  <dominictarr>the io is in parallel
15:31:46  <defunctzombie>streams are just one idea of higher level api for data
15:31:57  <dominictarr>because either one could return first.
15:32:01  <defunctzombie>I would talk about sockets over streams
15:32:03  <defunctzombie>sure
15:32:09  <defunctzombie>you can still do all that
15:32:28  <dominictarr>streams and sockets have the same platonic abstraction.
15:32:40  <defunctzombie>sockets are different
15:32:46  <defunctzombie>cause those include udp and non stream things
15:32:52  <dominictarr>okay.
15:33:18  <dominictarr>udp is a bit different.
15:33:26  <defunctzombie>I don't like to talk about streams when talking about IO because streams are just a thin framework on top of a base layer
15:33:54  <dominictarr>suer
15:34:09  <defunctzombie>when talking about IO I find the notion of "events" to be more correct, which does fit nicely with the callback model
15:35:03  <dominictarr>but if one resource is represented as a series of events… then it's a stream.
15:35:43  <dominictarr>a stream is a more useful abstraction because it maps more closely to what you are actually trying to do
15:35:51  <dominictarr>if you just used events directly
15:36:04  <dominictarr>you'd only end up with .pipe being implemented again and again.
15:39:46  <defunctzombie>I am not against streams
15:39:57  <defunctzombie>I just don't think they conflict with my idea of making things simpler
15:40:43  <defunctzombie>I have found that the desire of "parallelism" is really only needed in a few places
15:40:54  <defunctzombie>and by parallelism I mean concurrent request handling
15:41:12  <defunctzombie>that is what people care about when building a service
15:41:26  <defunctzombie>within a request there is much less interest for things to appear "concurrent"
15:42:08  <defunctzombie>for example the cases of db calls or such within a request
15:42:30  <defunctzombie>not really interested in those being promises or callbacks or anything other than a "call thing function and get data"
15:42:54  <defunctzombie>to me, that is a simpler view of the "business" level logic
15:45:42  <dominictarr>sure. but parallel is important for building systems that people can use for more complex things simply
15:46:06  <dominictarr>not everyone will use them, but they will use the results.
15:46:21  <dominictarr>like scuttlebutt, or dnode
15:46:31  <dominictarr>much easier to use than they where to write.
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15:47:30  <defunctzombie>I still don't see why you think that is harder with this type of approach
15:48:08  <defunctzombie>you still have the same levels of control for hard things
15:48:14  <defunctzombie>it just makes the simple things simpler
15:49:05  <defunctzombie>fs.read('what', function(err, data)) or fs.read().then.end imho are both equally stupid ways to do it when you simply want to read some file and do something
15:49:09  <defunctzombie>likewise with db calls, etc
15:49:33  <defunctzombie>but if you do want that level of control, you can have it too
15:50:35  <defunctzombie>where fibers (the node-fibers one) goes wrong is they don't provide you with a separate corelib to show just how you could benefit
15:50:57  <defunctzombie>and how code could look if you took that approach at the base level versus making the user do it
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15:55:51  <defunctzombie>anyhow, I digress cause I still think compared to other things we have with other languages, our current situation is better :)
15:56:09  <dominictarr>agree
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16:07:07  <defunctzombie>dominictarr: I just had a revelation in the shower which I believe to be key to the point I was trying to get across
16:07:20  <defunctzombie>anything that is a one time operation should look as such
16:07:38  <defunctzombie>and anything that is a repeated operation is where you care more about the whole notion of "events" and "callbacks"
16:11:34  <dominictarr>right.
16:17:12  <dominictarr>chrisdickinson: do you have some docs on the way beefy resolves url endings? I want to build a static http thing for leveldb
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17:04:09  <Domenic_>isaacs: really curious what kind of feedback you get from front-end devs.
17:04:35  <isaacs>Domenic_: they just tend to have a much more pragmatic mellow take on it.
17:04:50  <isaacs>Domenic_: and like, do not care one fucking bit about callbacks.
17:05:52  <isaacs>Domenic_: but at the same time, tend to know fully grok why fs.readFile is less good than fs.createReadStream
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17:06:24  <isaacs>Domenic_: but do grok why caching is important, etc.
17:06:37  <isaacs>working on the frontend gets you in the mindset of always worrying about latency more than any other thing.
17:06:43  <isaacs>since really, not much else matters all that much
17:06:52  <Domenic_>huh yeah makes sense
17:07:21  <Domenic_>gotta get those streams in the DOM before they can even contemplate caring about throughput :P
17:07:32  <isaacs>i think really, though, i find it refreshing because i've been almost entirely in the serverside world for the last few years now, but spent many years before that doing primarily frontend dev
17:07:54  <isaacs>Domenic_: yes. we need a solution for raw-data/string streams in the dom
17:07:59  <isaacs>Domenic_: not multi-valued promises.
17:08:12  <isaacs>(though, taking a closer look at that proposal, it is kinda neat)
17:08:23  * defunctzombiechanged nick to defunctzombie_zz
17:08:36  <Domenic_>yeah, just not time-tested
17:08:47  <isaacs>sure
17:09:20  <isaacs>but like, competent frontenders rarely have complaints like, "this isn't how ruby does it so your program is bad and you should feel bad"
17:09:27  <Domenic_>hahaha
17:09:29  <isaacs>s/ruby/$framework_i_know/
17:09:31  <isaacs>whatever.
17:09:43  <isaacs>since the frontend is such a shit show anyway, you just abandon that kind of thinking.
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17:09:56  <Domenic_>yeah
17:10:05  <isaacs>like, yeah, ie sucks, we all know this, but GUESS WHAT MOST OF YOUR CUSTOMERS STILL ARE USING!
17:10:29  <isaacs>and in this mobile smartphone world, it only gets worse.
17:10:51  <Domenic_>in my experience working with a bunch of former WPF devs they're too excited to get a language with less typing to complain about the lack of cohesiveness in the platform
17:10:52  <isaacs>"fetch 4 extra files and assemble the view client-side. computers are fast, right?"
17:11:07  <Domenic_>(and by less typing i mean less keyboard typing, mostly)
17:11:07  <isaacs>WELCOME TO MILLIONS OF ANDROID PHONES STILL RUNNING LOLLIPOP OR WHATEVERTHEFUCK
17:11:07  <LOUDBOT>SUBSCRIBED TO ALT.BINARIES.FETISH.JAPANESE.XXX.NOT.OCTOPUS
17:12:33  * defunctzombie_zzchanged nick to defunctzombie
17:13:55  <chrisdickinson>dominictarr: basically it goes "is it a dir?" "if yes, look for dir/index.html", otherwise it'll look for "<path>" and serve it
17:14:24  <dominictarr>right
17:14:32  <dominictarr>or look for X.html ?
17:14:41  <dominictarr>if there is no extension?
17:14:52  <chrisdickinson>yes ideally -- but i seem to be missing that code somehow :|
17:14:58  <dominictarr>ah
17:15:00  <chrisdickinson>i wonder if it got blown away in the latest pr.
17:15:02  * chrisdickinsonchecks.
17:15:10  <dominictarr>do you use that?
17:15:34  <chrisdickinson>the <X>.html?
17:15:43  <chrisdickinson>i personally don't, but it's there for parity with github pages
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17:21:53  <chrisdickinson>ooh, yeah, that got broken
17:21:54  * chrisdickinsonwill fix.
17:22:39  <dominictarr>chrisdickinson: right - that is a good enough reason for me.
17:23:09  <chrisdickinson>yeah, the whole ethos of beefy is to be useful for as long as possible and then get out of the way transparently
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17:33:33  <Raynos>defunctzombie: gave you npm rights.
17:34:09  <defunctzombie>cool
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17:38:37  <defunctzombie>Raynos: is there something to watch and run browserify on file changes?
17:38:48  <defunctzombie>I remember you wanted something like that
17:39:09  <Raynos>defunctzombie: wr "npm run build" .
17:39:21  <defunctzombie>thx
17:40:16  <defunctzombie>hm. doesn't like using browserify directly
17:59:17  <Raynos>defunctzombie: I sometimes also use supervisor
17:59:18  <Raynos>or
17:59:27  <Raynos>https://github.com/oleics/node-yawatch
18:03:27  <Raynos>defunctzombie: 100% agree coffeescript people should die
18:05:35  <Raynos>isaacs: thanks! I think you missed the silent flag changes though
18:12:03  <isaacs>Raynos: oh? yeah, i just grabbed the commit you linked, one sec...
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18:12:38  <isaacs>oh, right.
18:13:22  <Raynos>that commit is ugly :(. If you have any insight on how to avoid the extra param ill fix it
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18:14:31  <isaacs>Raynos: f176f41cc197bb80dd22821cc08b2678816eaaae
18:14:55  <Raynos>nice
18:15:02  <isaacs>Raynos: yeah, i don't actually care.
18:15:14  <isaacs>Raynos: that whole 1/3 or so of npm's functionality needs to be rewritten.
18:15:21  <isaacs>Raynos: or at least, abstracted out into a standalone thing
18:15:34  <isaacs>but realistically, that probably won't happen before 0.12
18:15:38  <isaacs>(node 0.12
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18:42:33  <Raynos>isaacs: I installed `isaacs/npm` and the patch worked!
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18:43:57  <isaacs>Raynos: huzzah!
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19:50:01  <Domenic_>substack et al: any way to add a string to a browserify bundle, instead of a file?
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19:59:28  <Raynos>Domenic_: if you dont need require or node stuff you can always just prefix the bundle with some js string
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20:07:22  <substack>Domenic_: browserify <(echo "console.log('beep boop')") | node
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20:14:53  <Domenic_>nah we want to register a module with the bundle that is generated from the database. right now we have to write it to the filesystem first :(
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21:14:39  <isaacs>substack: https://github.com/isaacs/dotfiles/commit/970ac3f596d6d8e08d3ed6a4dd843515c43e925f
21:14:55  <isaacs>substack: ^ `pr` command to merge a pull request by number or github url
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22:31:01  <niftylettuce>HAY GURLL HAYYYY
22:31:02  <LOUDBOT>I'M NOT EVEN ANGRY I'M BEING SO SINCERE RIGHT NOW
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23:04:13  <st_luke>fuck offices
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