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00:48:11  <Raynos>http://cypherpunks.io/
00:48:16  <Raynos>Oh wait
00:48:21  <Raynos>I thought it was called cyberpunks
00:48:25  <Raynos>but its CYPHER punks
00:48:28  <Raynos>Thats even more cool
00:49:11  <pkrumins>cypher skunks
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04:56:54  <Raynos>mbalho: https://github.com/ging/lynckia/tree/master/erizoAPI#erizoapi-a-nodejs-addon-wrapper-for-erizo-the-mcu-library-for-webrtc
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08:49:34  <substack>defunctzombie_zz: https://github.com/substack/browser-pack
08:52:56  <substack>$ browser-pack < example/input.json | wc -c
08:52:56  <substack>416
08:53:25  <substack>of course in browserify I'll need some extra pieces for modules that use process, Buffer, and other globals
08:53:36  <substack>but I'll have detective figure out these implicit exports
08:53:43  <substack>and only include them when necessary
08:54:05  <substack>and with the new format it should be much more possible to split bundles and use a loader
08:55:17  <substack>$ browser-pack < example/input.json | uglifyjs | gzip | wc -c
08:55:17  <substack>222
08:55:20  <substack>bwahaha
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09:01:41  <Raynos>substack: or have modules tat use global process / Buffer & pals break
09:02:10  <Raynos>and force them to require("process") and require("buffer")
09:02:53  <substack>require('process') doesn't work though
09:03:18  <substack>I would rather be able to use modules from npm without having to worry
09:05:13  <Raynos>process is on npm
09:05:48  <substack>I see.
09:18:57  <jesusabdullah>browser-pack eh? Seems like the sort of thing that would rarely be useful outside the context of browserify
09:19:04  <jesusabdullah>then again sometimes that stuff surprises you eh?
09:20:37  <substack>jesusabdullah: not my job to say what's useful or not
09:20:59  <substack>you'd think a lib like detective wouldn't be useful outside of browserify but people are using it for crazy things
09:21:19  <substack>I imagine that browser-pack would be very useful for other people building commonj-esque module packers
09:21:31  <jesusabdullah>Yeah I mean
09:21:52  <jesusabdullah>I'm not suggesting that usefulness to other people is the only good reason to separate modules
09:21:56  <jesusabdullah>because that would be silly
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09:24:24  <substack>I have other plans that involve browser-pack being a separate module
09:24:42  <substack>so you can browserify entry.js --json | plugin1 | plugin2 | browser-pack
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09:47:29  <chrisdickinson>wait a minute
09:47:43  <chrisdickinson>doesn't es6 have "yield"?
09:48:09  <substack>I think so
09:48:12  <chrisdickinson>wtf.
09:48:22  <substack>I don't really care about that, I just won't ever use it
09:48:35  <substack>just get modules right and then nothing else matters
09:48:36  <chrisdickinson>why not just specify require as something that internally calls "var src = yield request" instead of adding new syntax
09:48:47  <substack>hahaha
09:48:53  <chrisdickinson>i'd rather them add yield than "import", "export" and "module"
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11:39:20  <substack>defunctzombie_zz: https://github.com/shtylman/node-required/pull/4
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12:23:36  <substack>defunctzombie_zz: and https://github.com/shtylman/node-required/pull/5
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12:36:01  <rowbit>SubStack, pkrumins: At least 5 people waiting in the queue for free servers! (Waiting: 12)
12:38:03  <substack>oh craps, queue server bugs
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12:39:35  <substack>dev plans are ok
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15:50:56  <rowbit>/!\ ATTENTION: (default-local) mcjanssen1981@... successfully signed up for developer browserling plan ($20). Cash money! /!\
15:50:56  <rowbit>/!\ ATTENTION: (default-local) paid account successfully upgraded /!\
15:52:36  <substack>\o/
15:56:56  <defunctzombie>substack: remove trailing whitespaces :p (anyhow, I merged your changes and will publish new version in a minute)
15:57:02  <defunctzombie>once I figure out why node 0.9 is failing
15:57:07  <substack>oh whoops
15:57:16  <substack>travis is being weird tonight
15:58:22  <substack>defunctzombie: the other frustrating thing is that I had to make a second fs.readFile() call since required doesn't expose the source for entry files anywhere
15:59:06  <defunctzombie>hm, yea cause it just returns the dependencies :/
15:59:39  <substack>it's be much nicer if it just returned an event emitter
15:59:51  <substack>it could do that without breaking backwards compat too
16:00:23  <defunctzombie>the result is a tree structure who
16:00:29  <defunctzombie>so emitting events is a bit weird
16:00:36  <substack>and then each time it adds an entry to `result` it would emit an event with the id, source, filename, and flat map of deps
16:00:45  <defunctzombie>also, why the fuck is it broken in 0.9
16:00:51  <substack>but I don't actually need a nested structure anyways
16:00:54  <defunctzombie>whatever, I will publish this working 0.8 version
16:01:07  <substack>I'm just flattening the results in module-deps
16:01:11  <defunctzombie>substack: I do because when I shim I prune branches
16:01:23  <defunctzombie>I don't platten because then shimming a subtree is not possible
16:01:40  <defunctzombie>i.e. if I shim out 'events' I need to make sure anything it brought in is also removed
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16:02:03  <substack>can do that by tracking state
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16:02:54  <defunctzombie>substack: seems more complex, but happy to see an example :)
16:02:57  <substack>most of the stuff I want to do with plugins in much easier with a flattened structure
16:02:59  <defunctzombie>substack: version 0.1.0 published
16:03:04  <substack>yay
16:03:18  <defunctzombie>substack: I agree, however the shimming aspect I currently do on the pre-flat tree
16:03:27  <defunctzombie>I flatten after that before generating
16:03:52  <defunctzombie>flatten really was only important for easier generating in my use case
16:04:02  <defunctzombie>everything else can operate on the tree
16:04:45  <substack>trees are much harder to build a concatenator for
16:04:59  <substack>and I can't stringify the tree because it can be cyclic
16:05:46  <defunctzombie>substack: agreed, if you can make the shimming thing work without a tree structure and not be crazy I am open to suggestions
16:05:48  <defunctzombie>also, https://github.com/shtylman/node-required/issues/3
16:06:02  <defunctzombie>closed that as you pointed out, it can be normalized after
16:06:10  <defunctzombie>the id is different and that information must be preserved
16:07:10  <substack>I'm just using the filename as the id
16:07:17  <substack>since filenames are unique identifiers
16:07:32  <defunctzombie>do you then make aliases to make the require calls work?
16:08:00  <substack>aliases?
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16:08:29  <defunctzombie>hm, how best to describe it
16:08:38  <substack>here's how I'm generating the source bundles: https://github.com/substack/browser-pack
16:08:53  <defunctzombie>so when you have require('../lib/foo'); and require('./foo.js'); in two separate files
16:08:58  <defunctzombie>they both need to require the same file
16:09:07  <defunctzombie>however the 'identifier' in require is different
16:09:20  <defunctzombie>I solve this problem with "aliases"
16:09:56  <defunctzombie>indicating that when in the file that required via ../lib/foo you see ../lib/foo it actually means the same thing as ./foo.js when in the other file
16:10:02  <substack>browser-pack maps the local require strings like './foo.js' to the global ids
16:10:16  <defunctzombie>this avoids path manipulation code and rewriting the js
16:10:30  <defunctzombie>ah ok.. yea, those maps I call aliases
16:10:38  <defunctzombie>but yea
16:10:55  <substack>the end result is really terse
16:10:59  <defunctzombie>that is why you need the 'ids', don't think of id as the unique identifier
16:11:08  <defunctzombie>yes, I know, it is very similar to how I do it with script :)
16:11:12  <defunctzombie>very terse result
16:11:19  <substack>I'm using the filename as the id
16:11:21  <defunctzombie>'id' may be a bad name
16:11:31  <defunctzombie>maybe I should make it identifier
16:11:33  <defunctzombie>or something
16:11:35  <substack>but I'll convert the file names into an integer to save space
16:11:39  <defunctzombie>it means "the string passed to require"
16:11:48  <defunctzombie>substack: interesting
16:12:01  <defunctzombie>that is pretty fascinating haha
16:12:22  <substack>browser-pack doesn't care what the ids are that you give it
16:12:27  <defunctzombie>sure
16:12:41  <defunctzombie>I think we are just using the word 'id' in different ways
16:12:44  <defunctzombie>in different places
16:12:55  <defunctzombie>not idea, so maybe we can come up with more consistent terms :/
16:13:22  <substack>https://github.com/substack/browser-pack/blob/master/example/input.json
16:13:55  <defunctzombie>https://github.com/substack/browser-pack/blob/master/example/input.json#L5
16:14:00  <defunctzombie>what would you call './foo.js'
16:14:01  <defunctzombie>that string
16:14:20  <defunctzombie>that is what is in require(' __what is this called__ ');
16:14:30  <defunctzombie>that is what 'id' is to me in required
16:14:41  <defunctzombie>it was short for identifier
16:14:55  <defunctzombie>I am open to better names
16:15:01  <substack>id is fine
16:15:13  <substack>id just means something different to browser-pack
16:15:20  <defunctzombie>yep
16:15:33  <defunctzombie>so with this stream approach you have
16:15:40  <defunctzombie>how do I implement the 'browser' field
16:15:52  <defunctzombie>and make sure anything that was required as a result of a "branch" is pruned?
16:16:01  <defunctzombie>that seems to be the only additional thing I would wnat
16:16:07  <defunctzombie>and I can replace all of script :)
16:16:36  <substack>all of this will be it into browserify proper eventually
16:16:40  <defunctzombie>support for browser filed is the same stuff that makes node builtins work btw
16:17:01  <substack>browserify will basically just sit in the middle of module-deps and browser-pack as a special kind of plugin
16:18:11  <substack>one idea is that module-deps could take a callback for pruning the nested data before flattening
16:18:58  <defunctzombie>that could work, you would pass what to shim to it
16:19:07  <defunctzombie>(or more specifically to whatever makes the callback)
16:19:30  <defunctzombie>then module deps would want the tree structure that required outputs?
16:19:55  <defunctzombie>with shimming, you have to do another call to required btw
16:20:03  <defunctzombie>but with the saved cache that would be fine I bet
16:21:57  <substack>so maybe a better way
16:22:12  <substack>is for required to have a callback to control filtering
16:22:22  <substack>or an event that emits an object to control the flow
16:22:48  <substack>so that entire branches that would be pruned can be walked without doing all the readFiles for files that won't appear in the output
16:23:20  <defunctzombie>I could buy that
16:23:37  <defunctzombie>so that is one thing to think about
16:23:47  <defunctzombie>and the final thing is what I called "external bundles"
16:24:00  <defunctzombie>this is where bundles A and B are shipping in two different js files
16:24:12  <defunctzombie>but A contains no code for B
16:24:25  <defunctzombie>example would be B is (engine.io or show)
16:24:28  <defunctzombie>and A is the app code
16:24:32  <defunctzombie>B rarely changes
16:24:42  <defunctzombie>so we have it in a separate <script> tag
16:25:24  <defunctzombie>this type of mapping would need to happen between browser-pack and module-deps I guess?
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16:25:55  <defunctzombie>the important thing here is that if the source to B has not changed, the ids (module-deps ids) should be the same
16:26:08  <defunctzombie>the file output should not vary between runs for unchanged source
16:26:23  <defunctzombie>so that A knows what ids to use from B
16:26:30  <substack>I think browser-pack could be a good place to do this
16:26:37  <defunctzombie>I think this is simple with the way you have it
16:26:57  <substack>and it's very simple to specify if each row just says which output bundle it should go into
16:27:13  <substack>"bundle": "a"
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16:29:59  <defunctzombie>substack: I think the callback to required to control filtering could be pretty nice as the first thing needed to make shimming happen
16:30:10  <defunctzombie>it would also mean that anything using it could be 'browser' field support with minimal effort
16:30:29  <defunctzombie>and any other builtin replacement support
16:30:48  <substack>yep
16:31:03  <defunctzombie>so does that mean required should handle the browser field in package.json?
16:31:11  <substack>another thing is how source filters might affect the dependency walking
16:31:15  <defunctzombie>cause nothing else will be reading that it seems...
16:31:22  <substack>if a source transform removes or adds files to walk
16:31:38  <substack>but we can worry about that after culling is figured out
16:31:59  <substack>defunctzombie: that would be a very appropriate place to read the browser field
16:32:16  <substack>especially since you are in the best position to know how all that stuff works
16:32:22  <defunctzombie>right
16:32:35  <defunctzombie>either that or expose the functionality through a callback one can provide
16:33:02  <defunctzombie>so that required it self remains simple(r)
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16:34:38  <substack>what's really great about the new approach:
16:34:39  <substack>$ echo [] | browser-pack | wc -c
16:34:39  <substack>196
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16:36:15  <defunctzombie>substack: yes, I never liked the mass browserify added to my code
16:36:26  <defunctzombie>that was another reason I did a different approach with script
16:36:40  <defunctzombie>but I like your short hash id thing even more
16:36:44  <defunctzombie>:)
16:37:05  <defunctzombie>substack: https://github.com/shtylman/reunion/blob/master/client/require.js
16:37:25  <defunctzombie>that is the smallest require functionality I have created so far I think
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16:38:12  <defunctzombie>substack: also, now that we can do require('process'); this stuff is simpler
16:38:24  <defunctzombie>cause you don't need to pad out as many globals
16:38:53  <substack>I think browserify should check for globals like process
16:39:01  <substack>and include them where modules make use of them
16:39:25  <defunctzombie>substack: yes
16:39:25  <substack>a ton of modules on npm use process.nextTick()
16:39:31  <defunctzombie>but at the same time I want to encourage use of require
16:39:37  <defunctzombie>for anything not local to the file
16:39:45  <defunctzombie>substack: yea
16:39:57  <defunctzombie>I am a bit sad the pull request was not accepted
16:40:05  <defunctzombie>but it is ok, cause I got control of the process npm module
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16:40:09  <defunctzombie>and added a browser field to that one
16:40:23  <defunctzombie>so you could do require('process') if you wanted to
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16:41:13  <substack>could make it a warning in browserify v2
16:41:49  <substack>then remove it in v3
16:44:01  <defunctzombie>yea
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16:44:10  <defunctzombie>ok, so first thing we need?
16:44:24  <defunctzombie>the required to support the culling stuff
16:44:33  <defunctzombie>either internally or via a callback/something
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16:48:50  <substack>a callback sounds good
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18:42:47  <chrisdickinson>substack: how does browser-pack work?
18:43:12  <chrisdickinson>ah, interesting, i see
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18:50:51  <chrisdickinson>substack: so, onload it'll run through each module source from the provided JSON, execute it and return the desired json?
18:51:04  <chrisdickinson>i mean, return the desired exported object?
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19:01:05  <defunctzombie>chrisdickinson: I think right now it is meant for server side usage, but yea, it could just inject the code client side as well
19:01:36  <chrisdickinson>i'm maybe a bit lost.
19:01:49  <chrisdickinson>so, does it fulfill the same sort of role as browserify?
19:01:53  <chrisdickinson>(but much smaller?)
19:02:47  <defunctzombie>chrisdickinson: yes, and more flexible
19:02:54  <defunctzombie>it will be a part of browserify v2
19:03:04  <defunctzombie>browserify is an end to end tool
19:03:10  <defunctzombie>these are the little parts of that tool
19:03:16  <chrisdickinson>and the prelude it generates will execute all modules it receives immediately
19:03:26  <defunctzombie>substack: I have a required which takes a function for 'resolve'
19:03:50  <defunctzombie>substack: this allows the caller to intercept how required resolves things and in turn provide alternative things to load
19:04:08  <defunctzombie>chrisdickinson: I haven't looked too closely at it yet
19:04:42  <defunctzombie>substack: I need an async resolve module tho :/
19:04:47  <chrisdickinson>interesting
19:04:48  <defunctzombie>to make it more async :)
19:04:54  <defunctzombie>chrisdickinson: it will be pretty cool :)
19:05:06  <chrisdickinson>so the top level of modules entering basically defines all entry points
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22:41:31  <evbogue>Hey mad scientists, have you seen this? https://microca.st/ It's pre-production pump.io. Wondering about your expert opinion whether there are better ways to do this, and what they are. For ex: what would this look like if it was built on Scuttlebutt?
22:42:26  <evbogue>The reason I'm asking is because I'm obsessed with figuring out how to do distributed peer to peer social, and trying to figure out how to bring it into this world in a way that works.
22:43:01  <evbogue>For reference, pump.io: https://github.com/e14n/pump.io/
22:50:45  <evbogue>I guess my question is, if you were implementing pump.io, would you do it the way pump.io is implemented, or differently? How differently? What would you do?
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23:11:10  <rowbit>/!\ ATTENTION: (default-local) gilbertbgarza@... successfully signed up for developer browserling plan ($20). Cash money! /!\
23:11:10  <rowbit>/!\ ATTENTION: (default-local) paid account successfully upgraded /!\
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23:20:40  <dfgg>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnRlskR3wuU
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