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00:00:51  <mbalho>i think caniuse + wiki + jsperf would be awesome
00:01:01  <mbalho>like... click here to write a test for this
00:01:09  <mbalho>or run this test in your browser now and share the results
00:01:16  <mbalho>for every dom api
00:02:09  <Raynos>CoverSlide: that's not granular enough
00:02:20  <chrisdickinson>mbalho: i'm thinking of a github org that has dom api's split out by level and functionality, with readmes about how to use them + testling ci badges showing exactly where they work
00:02:28  <Raynos>For example
00:02:37  <chrisdickinson>(and what goes wrong when they don't work)
00:02:45  <chrisdickinson>but big +1 on the jsperf links
00:03:14  <Raynos>chrisdickinson: https://github.com/Raynos/feature
00:03:38  <Raynos>chrisdickinson: http://www.webbrowsercompatibility.com/
00:04:54  <chrisdickinson>interesting
00:05:22  <Raynos>the purpose of feature was something different
00:05:33  <chrisdickinson>it'd be nice to just do https://github.com/dom-compat/<api>
00:05:55  <CoverSlide>I'd also love a vendor prefix cheat sheet
00:06:21  <chrisdickinson>ideally this would aim to provide that too
00:06:34  <chrisdickinson>(assuming the tests are written so that the tape output is nice)
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00:37:57  <Raynos>I keep writing mapReduce queries that are just re-indexing of data :/
00:38:10  <Raynos>is that all data is, just move it around into a different shape indexed under a different axis
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01:04:33  <st_luke>bags of sand
01:06:37  <substack>shifty
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01:08:56  <guybrush>Raynos: Tests represent existence, not functionality or full conformance. (regarding webbrowsercompatibility.com)
01:09:23  <Raynos>yes
01:11:42  <defunctzombie>Raynos: yes
01:12:05  <defunctzombie>Raynos: data is just bits that have been map reduced to numbers which have been map reduced to more complex objects :)
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01:16:13  <Raynos>well my problem is im not reducing
01:16:19  <Raynos>im just taking the same volume of data
01:16:22  <Raynos>and re-indexing it
01:24:18  <dools> /win 2
01:24:21  <dools>BUSTED
01:31:15  <substack>http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5185726
01:31:31  <substack>static analysis is the easiest stuff ever
01:31:36  <substack>why do people think it's so hard
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01:35:09  <mikolalysenko>I wonder if there are any elegant ways to abstract interpretation in javascript
01:36:39  <substack>mikolalysenko: rolling your own eval()?
01:37:25  <mikolalysenko>kind of
01:37:32  <mikolalysenko>basically eval, but with more limited semantics
01:38:52  <defunctzombie>substack: sounds like their whole situation is kinda broken .. if (server) if client.. bah
01:39:26  <mikolalysenko>I think in this case the correct term for what you want to do is abstract interpretation
01:39:29  <defunctzombie>substack: the sooner programmers realize code == data the better tools can become
01:39:32  <mikolalysenko>err I mean partial evaluation
01:39:51  <mikolalysenko>you basically fix the value Meteor.isClient to a constant, then evaluate the program with that constant optimized out
01:40:02  <mikolalysenko>removing branches which are never taken
01:40:30  <mikolalysenko>but doing this properly involves writing a compiler/interpreter that does some form of abstract interpretation
01:40:49  <substack>mikolalysenko: you could use esprima to generate an ast and then evaluate that ast yourself
01:40:56  <substack>ommitting certain features
01:41:14  <mikolalysenko>yeah, that is pretty much the idea
01:41:33  <mikolalysenko>I am just wondering out loud if there is a good way to automate this process
01:44:25  <mikolalysenko>I think writing a JavaScript partial evaluator could be pretty cool
01:44:48  <mikolalysenko>since it would trivially solve the above example
01:45:06  <mikolalysenko>and if you applied it to a js interpreter, it gives you a js compiler for free!
01:45:36  <mikolalysenko>see the following, for the most hilarious recursion in all programming languages: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partial_evaluation#Futamura_projections
01:49:18  <mikolalysenko>also gcc is technically an instance of the third futamura projection, for some hideous intermediate language
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04:53:04  <substack>http://github.com/substack/straggler
04:53:09  <substack>aggregate text streams
04:53:28  <substack>and all the permissions use symmetric keypairs with secure-peer
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07:38:31  <chrisdickinson>nyergh
07:40:52  <chrisdickinson>what would be a good response to someone claiming that browserify creates "huge" bundles (vs. putting the "see if we're in node / see if we're in AMD / staple it to global" song and dance at the entry point of their module)?
07:41:54  <substack>not sure
07:42:31  <substack>I don't understand why people think browserify makes "huge bundles"
07:44:42  <substack>nobody makes a peep about including a 93k jquery file, minified
07:45:40  <substack>yet somehow a 5k minified prelude is too much
07:45:44  <substack>people don't make any sense
07:46:07  <fotoverite>because people want to complain
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07:46:49  <substack>and a module system is just about the most important tool at your disposal for writing maintainable, reusable code
07:47:11  <fotoverite>not as important as query to some people 0_o
07:48:17  <substack>chrisdickinson: just show them this: https://gist.github.com/gists
07:48:26  <substack>and ask them if they use jquery too for extra effect
07:48:42  <substack>I don't even think a 90k bundle is a big deal
07:48:52  <substack>I just think that people making a fuss are hypocrites a lot of the time
07:49:06  <substack>whoops I mean https://gist.github.com/substack/4737340
07:49:09  <mbalho>its called a 'vocal minority'
07:49:28  <fotoverite>That's a terrible accapela group
07:50:06  <substack>mbalho: yep and when you have a legitimate problem with huge bundles there are ways to optimize your way around the problem
07:50:17  <substack>like with the voxel tool you've been working on
07:50:24  <chrisdickinson>so, nodepdx happened tonight
07:50:41  <substack>and really the problem there is mostly that three.js is built jquery-style which results in very large bundles
07:50:42  <chrisdickinson>and when the speaker asked for questions re: the presentation, i asked "why not browserify"
07:50:49  <substack>node style modules tend not to have this issue in the first place
07:51:10  <substack>chrisdickinson: what was the presentation about?
07:51:14  <chrisdickinson>terraformer
07:51:29  <chrisdickinson>cool project
07:52:04  <chrisdickinson>the only issue i had was that he said that "browserify makes HUGE bundles" in a room with a lot of people new to node.js :|
07:52:17  <mbalho>lol
07:52:21  <mbalho>FUD
07:52:43  <substack>jquery and three.js make huge bundles, not browserify
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07:53:11  <substack>and really, the ability to create huge bundles is a massive feature
07:53:19  <substack>oh no I am reusing too much code
07:53:54  <substack>my code is too maintainable I am managing this massive project too well the computer is automating away my problems oh no
07:55:08  <substack>chrisdickinson: anyways I am going to write a commonjs-aware minifier
07:55:21  <substack>and use defunctzombie_zz's ideas to make bundles really tiny
07:55:27  <chrisdickinson>yeah
07:55:31  <mbalho>substack: you should make browserify 2.0
07:55:36  <mbalho>substack: be a separate repo
07:55:37  <mbalho>:D
07:55:43  <substack>haha
07:55:54  <substack>I want to reuse the tests though
07:56:03  <substack>tests are the most valuable asset of any long-lived project
07:56:06  <mbalho>run away from the issues/pull reqs and just start over with a clean modular core
07:56:07  <chrisdickinson>so, the only thing i sort of miss -- and this is kind of antithetical to browserify, but i still miss it -- is having a good story for lazy loading modules or bundles
07:56:09  <mbalho>yea
07:56:25  <mbalho>chrisdickinson: totally agree
07:56:44  <mbalho>i would be fine building if it browserify let me programatically bundle individual modules easily
07:56:44  <substack>chrisdickinson: I agree too actually
07:56:56  <mbalho>but there be dragons
07:57:00  <chrisdickinson>i'm not sure what form it would take, but it'd be cool if it were possible; and super mega bonus points if it emits progress events.
07:57:04  <substack>this is why browserify v2 will let you write custom bundlers that ingest json to figure out where the bundles should be split
07:57:19  <mbalho>ooh that sounds cool
07:57:27  <chrisdickinson>re: my reply: "I wouldn't say browserify makes your code huge -- it adds a one-time overhead at any entry point of 10k unminified/uncompressed (2.4k minified + gzipped). Most apps using browserify will only have a single entry point, but use multiple modules. For a sense of scale, Underscore.js is 4k min+gzipped, while es5-shim is 2.8kb minified+gzipped."
07:58:00  <chrisdickinson>So, the prelude browserify adds is smaller than es5-shim.
07:58:01  <substack>chrisdickinson: and jquery is 33k minified+gzipped!
07:58:04  <substack>make sure to add that
07:58:13  <chrisdickinson>I didn't want to use jquery as an example
07:58:15  <chrisdickinson>(of anything ever)
07:58:17  <mbalho>lol
07:58:18  <substack>haha
07:58:26  <chrisdickinson>mostly because it's perceived as being "big"
07:58:36  <chrisdickinson>and i'm trying to put a sense of scale by comparing it to small things
07:58:42  <chrisdickinson>which it's still smaller than
07:59:20  <mbalho>when browserify 2.0 lands i wanna hack up some cool in browser stuff along the lines of voxel-creator/npm repl by @alunny
07:59:34  <substack>mbalho: excellent!
07:59:43  <mbalho>also i wanna add multiple file support to voxel-creator
08:00:03  <mbalho>cause a teacher messaged me today saying he wants to use voxel.js with high school students who have been learning js for 2 months now
08:00:08  <substack>mbalho: oh I'll be heading down to adobe soon to talk to them about setting up phonegap with testling-ci
08:00:10  <chrisdickinson>oo
08:00:15  <mbalho>and said he needed to have something that can do OO
08:00:27  <substack>could be a good opportunity to sell them on browserify-style modules
08:00:38  <mbalho>and so what im gonna do is trick him into teaching node modules as composition + modularity
08:00:50  <substack>mbalho: do you have any good examples of building phonegap apps with browserify?
08:00:59  <mbalho>substack: gather.at :D
08:01:01  <chrisdickinson>i reallllly need to get my fork of voxel-engine in a good place for a PR
08:01:11  <mbalho>substack: i gotta put the source for that part online though
08:01:14  <substack>mbalho: yeah tiny example repos on github though?
08:01:19  <substack>roger that
08:01:32  <mbalho>substack: tomorrow on the falafel journey i can show you some stuff
08:01:59  <substack>rawk
08:01:59  <mbalho>actually https://github.com/maxogden/viewkit
08:03:19  <mbalho>https://github.com/maxogden/ViewKit/blob/master/Makefile#L21
08:03:32  <substack>cool
08:03:59  <mbalho>though im not satisfied with the level of modularity in that project
08:04:13  <mbalho>cause i wrote it before i had all that stuff figured out
08:04:24  <mbalho>but it wouldnt be hard to reorganize it a little
08:04:40  <mbalho>this app uses viewkit https://github.com/maxogden/india-trains-mobile/
08:04:42  <substack>need to remember to wake up early enough to put that new cable on my bike
08:04:56  <substack>but alameda is close enough I could walk it's only twice as far as fruitvale bart
08:05:00  <mbalho>man, webgl is way more fun than mobile browsers
08:05:00  <substack>and I want down there all the time
08:05:18  <substack>*walk
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16:03:08  <defunctzombie>isaacs: when a dependency is in both optional dependencies and dependencies and I install with production = true, the dependency is not installed
16:03:25  <isaacs>defunctzombie: s/optional/dev/?
16:03:33  <defunctzombie>nope, optional
16:03:36  <isaacs>defunctzombie: if so, yes, i know, you posted an issue aboutthis
16:03:43  <isaacs>defunctzombie: do you have --optional=false?
16:03:47  <defunctzombie>nope
16:03:57  <isaacs>defunctzombie: minimal test case, please.
16:04:03  <isaacs>defunctzombie: --production should not affect optionality
16:04:05  <defunctzombie>isaacs: https://github.com/tmpvar/jsdom/blob/master/package.json#L194
16:04:06  <defunctzombie>will do
16:04:30  <isaacs>defunctzombie: jsdom is not minimal :)
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16:05:44  <isaacs>defunctzombie: https://gist.github.com/4739973
16:05:48  <isaacs>defunctzombie: works for me
16:06:08  <defunctzombie>isaacs: trying to see how I can reproduce it
16:06:22  <isaacs>defunctzombie: well, it's clearly more than just what you've said
16:06:26  <defunctzombie>maybe that isn't the specific issue, but based on how my install looks on one of my servers it certainly appeared that way
16:06:27  <isaacs>defunctzombie: because https://gist.github.com/4739973
16:06:32  <isaacs>sure.
16:06:37  <isaacs>that's why minimal reproductions are key :)
16:07:16  <defunctzombie>agreed
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16:11:45  <defunctzombie>isaacs: so the problem is that the contextfiy install had to build something and that failed
16:11:54  <defunctzombie>isaacs: however, when I did npm ls, nothing was shown as unmet
16:12:02  <defunctzombie>isaacs: because contextify is both dependency and optional
16:12:17  <isaacs>yes
16:12:20  <defunctzombie>isaacs: so the realy issue is that optional dep overrode the need to display unmet
16:12:21  <isaacs>that's how optional dependencies work :)
16:12:29  <isaacs>if they are not there, it's ok
16:12:32  <isaacs>because they're optional.
16:12:36  <isaacs>so it's not "unmet", it's just not there.
16:13:02  <defunctzombie>sigh, gotcha... I am trying to use the zombie module and it wants contextify itself.. these people and their shitty packaging
16:13:07  <defunctzombie>isaacs: thanks for the help
16:14:08  <defunctzombie>isaacs: I was under the impression that optional deps were not listed in deps, but I guess not
16:14:31  <isaacs>defunctzombie: well, npm just folds them in, then does its normal thing, and on failure, sais "was it optional? yes? ok, then."
16:14:34  <isaacs>and moves on
16:14:56  <defunctzombie>gotcha
16:15:37  <defunctzombie>the real problem here is that the zombie module was packaged in a shitty way haha
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16:23:30  <isaacs>guess so
16:23:35  <isaacs>does zombie depend on contextify?
16:23:41  <isaacs>ie, is it specified as a dependency?
16:24:18  <isaacs>maybe the issue here is that npm shouldn't be assuming that child deps will be satisfied by parent depss, if the parent dep is optional.
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16:33:24  <defunctzombie>isaacs: it should depend on it but doesn't
16:33:39  <isaacs>i see
16:33:41  <isaacs>so it just kinda hopes
16:34:22  <defunctzombie>isaacs: they try to do some bullshit where they use the jsdom one
16:34:32  <isaacs>oh, god, no.
16:34:33  <defunctzombie>isaacs: I would send you the link on github, but zombie is coffeescript
16:34:35  <isaacs>that's so wrong
16:34:37  <isaacs>hahaha
16:34:37  <defunctzombie>yea
16:34:41  <defunctzombie>it is totally retarded
16:34:49  <isaacs>so,the real question is, why are you using it?
16:35:05  <defunctzombie>isaacs: need to crawl a bank website :/
16:35:23  <defunctzombie>not really crawl, but login and check some things
16:35:31  <defunctzombie>trust me, if I didn't have to use it, I wouldn't be
16:35:34  <defunctzombie>but it worked
16:35:49  <defunctzombie>whereas using request and others did not without much more effort on my part
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16:39:10  <jesusabdullah>have you tried cheerio defunctzombie? it's not a real dom but it gives you jquery-like selectors, works pretty well for scraping so far
16:39:42  <defunctzombie>jesusabdullah: I don't need scraping, so much as something that handles the crazy cookies and sessions, etc that bank sites do
16:39:53  <defunctzombie>jesusabdullah: also, cheerio maintainer doesn't pin his dependencies
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16:40:03  <defunctzombie>that is retarded and I won't use that shit ;)
16:40:56  <defunctzombie>jesusabdullah: https://github.com/MatthewMueller/cheerio/blob/master/package.json#L16 yea, no thank you
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16:46:24  <jesusabdullah>I can understand doing that for a closely related project that you control
16:46:30  <jesusabdullah>I mean, I don't cause I'm lazy but, y'know
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16:50:58  <defunctzombie>jesusabdullah: I can't, it is incorrect to do and just means you don't care about anyone else
16:51:08  <defunctzombie>anyhow, I don't really try to convince people anymore
16:51:23  <defunctzombie>I just either don't use their stuff or fork it and pin it myself if I really care
16:53:02  <defunctzombie>people that do stupid shit like that should not be publishing code into a registry imho :/
16:53:09  <defunctzombie>but I have strong opinions :D
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17:49:49  <jesusabdullah>whateva defunctzombie I do what I want
17:49:57  <defunctzombie>\o/
17:50:01  <jesusabdullah>I feel strongly that npm should be a completely federated platform
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17:57:55  <CoverSlide>define federated
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23:50:03  <Raynos>Whats the best way to get a correct 60 fps loop?