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01:31:19  <jjjjohnnny>neo-muturism
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02:04:58  <jez0990__>jjjjohnnny: neo-mutualism?
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03:25:17  <isaacs>substack: http://typicalprogrammer.com/?p=8
03:26:12  <defunctzombie>https://github.com/shtylman/shtylman.github.com/blob/master/_posts/2012-12-10-npm-bundles-and-solutions.md
03:26:24  <defunctzombie>anyone that has a minute I would appreciate some feedback
03:26:31  <defunctzombie>haven't published the post yet
03:26:41  <defunctzombie>(that is why the syntax parts looks weird)
03:27:44  <defunctzombie>isaacs: you might be interested since it is about npm :)
03:28:06  <defunctzombie>and in a positive way ;)
03:28:44  <fotoverite>defunct you feel like hacking at a cafe tomorrow?
03:31:20  <defunctzombie>fotoverite: depends which cafe ;)
03:36:16  <substack>defunctzombie: read it
03:36:35  <substack>starting to agree that browserify should have a mechanism for handling shims
03:36:44  <defunctzombie>:)
03:36:56  <defunctzombie>did it make sense?
03:37:06  <defunctzombie>I felt like I may have put too many disjoint concepts in there
03:37:21  <defunctzombie>with the whole different npm dependencies thing
03:37:33  <defunctzombie>that could be a small post of itself
03:38:28  <defunctzombie>substack: browserify is the inspiration for script, the only reason script exists is because I wanted to explore the idea of shims and a smaller "require" portion on the client
03:39:23  <defunctzombie>when I first heard about browserify, I immediately thought.. this.. this makes sense.. this *must* exist
03:39:35  <defunctzombie>this must be used
03:40:41  <defunctzombie>the cool thing about shims is that if packages provide them, then a module like engine.io (or sock.js I think too) could be at a point where they don't need to provide any to work on the client
03:40:51  <defunctzombie>since they just use lower level shims from xmlhttprequest and such
03:41:09  <fotoverite>probably les tomorrow have an rb meet up I need to go to later in the day.
03:41:23  <defunctzombie>k
03:41:52  <fotoverite>I agree that npm makes it easier in the browser then people think
03:45:03  <fotoverite>And we need to talk more about using npm/ender/WTF so that we can just plug and play.
03:45:27  <fotoverite>I def think you need to make it more clear and concise what exactly you want to happen and how you want it to happen.
03:45:40  <defunctzombie>you don't need ender or wtf
03:45:50  <fotoverite>Focus on engine.io and how shims work
03:45:56  <rvagg>YOU NEED ENDER
03:45:57  <LOUDBOT>OSHI-- THAT IS DEFINITELY CHAOTIC EVIL
03:46:02  <defunctzombie>hahaha
03:46:05  <defunctzombie>k
03:46:19  <fotoverite>Try to cut around 1/3 to 1/4
03:46:38  <fotoverite>sort and sweet. But it's well written
03:48:08  <fotoverite>Let the tools do the work!! That's your main argument.
03:49:33  <defunctzombie>among others, but yet
03:51:46  <Raynos>oh hi
03:52:18  <Raynos>defunctzombie: your shims idea can be done at run time in the code
03:52:20  <ik>LOUDBOT: radar love
03:52:20  <LOUDBOT>ik: I CAME HERE TO LEARN HOW TO FLY AN AEROPLANE!
03:52:27  <ik>LOUDBOT: whosaid
03:52:28  <LOUDBOT>Juffo-Wup in #mefi on slashnet
03:52:34  <Raynos>defunctzombie: https://github.com/Raynos/clientmongo/blob/master/index.js
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04:03:04  <defunctzombie>Raynos: no it cannot
04:03:20  <defunctzombie>because the bundler doesn't know which file to bring in
04:03:37  <defunctzombie>also, doing it at runtime is worse, now I have to consider these two different code paths
04:03:42  <defunctzombie>when they areally are not different paths
04:03:52  <defunctzombie>the underlying api is the same
04:04:24  <defunctzombie>doing it at runtime like you have there is a hack because browserify ignores your + " server" thing
04:04:28  <defunctzombie>but that is unclean
04:04:47  <defunctzombie>and makes no sense when I look at that code
04:05:47  <defunctzombie>package.json sims allow for your code to look normal and provide the information out of band
04:08:36  <Raynos>They are two different code paths
04:08:39  <Raynos>Your low level library
04:08:42  <Raynos>that does a split of implementation
04:08:46  <Raynos>has two implementations
04:08:50  <Raynos>require("fs") does na internal split
04:09:00  <Raynos>and either returns nodes implemenation on top of libuv file bindings
04:09:08  <Raynos>or a browser implementation on top of HTML5 file system
04:15:15  <defunctzombie>my point is that the file you have there cannot be used in a browser as is
04:15:41  <defunctzombie>whatever tool you use to make it browser ready will need to bring in the dependencies
04:15:52  <defunctzombie>in this case the valid dependencies are lib/server and lib/client
04:16:05  <defunctzombie>which I am guessing both provide the same api
04:16:52  <defunctzombie>Raynos: https://github.com/shtylman/superagent/blob/master/package.json#L39
04:17:01  <defunctzombie>https://github.com/shtylman/superagent/blob/master/index.js
04:17:08  <defunctzombie>this is the same effect except with shims
04:17:39  <defunctzombie>and no abuse of the "lib" + "server" syntax being ignored
04:18:15  <defunctzombie>and also not leaving your code to have to do things like if (window === undefined)
04:18:26  <defunctzombie>or other random checks to determine if client or server
04:18:29  <defunctzombie>which is already known
04:18:54  <defunctzombie>in either case, clientmongo is a simple example, engine.io code had some more interested use cases
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04:54:12  <Raynos>defunctzombie: it can be used in the browser as is.
04:55:08  <Raynos>you just need better tooling
04:55:13  <Raynos>I prefer the run time switch
04:55:18  <Raynos>its the exact same thing you do
04:55:22  <Raynos>to support node 0.4, 0.6 and 0.8
04:55:27  <Raynos>its the exact same thing you do
04:55:31  <Raynos>to support IE6, IE7 and IE8
04:55:35  <Raynos>Its run time feature detection
04:55:52  <Raynos>Now admittedly doing if (window) is stupid because its not feature detection but is browser sniffing
04:56:49  <defunctzombie>the tooling is not the problem, you are using a quirk of your tool actually
04:56:58  <defunctzombie>I can easily write a tool that will handle that + sign
04:57:14  <defunctzombie>since both parts of the expression are string literals
04:57:35  <defunctzombie>a better tool would actually detect that and try to then load in that require as well
04:58:58  <defunctzombie>instead of coding to a quirk, just be explicit about the behavior by specifying the desired result in the package.json file since that is where the pakcage is described in the first place
05:00:19  <defunctzombie>if the tool you were using used the shim field in package.json you would have just done that
05:00:50  <defunctzombie>you used the + because that was a quirk/limitation of the tool to get some side behavior (there is nothing wrong with that btw)
05:01:00  <Raynos>defunctzombie: specificying it in the package.json doesnt scale
05:01:04  <defunctzombie>I am just trying to explain what I believe to be a cleaner, more explicit way to do it
05:01:08  <Raynos>you going to specificy what shim to use for rhino?
05:01:15  <Raynos>your going to specify what shim to use windows8 ?
05:01:19  <defunctzombie>again this argument about all these environments
05:01:22  <defunctzombie>it doesn't exist
05:01:24  <defunctzombie>no
05:01:38  <defunctzombie>the shims are for client side (browser targets)
05:01:42  <defunctzombie>the shim field scales just fine
05:01:53  <defunctzombie>these made up arguments about other environments is non existent
05:01:56  <Raynos>But this is jsut bikeshedding
05:01:57  <Raynos>the point is
05:01:58  <defunctzombie>no one is using them
05:02:02  <Raynos>you have low level libraries
05:02:06  <Raynos>that abstract host environments
05:02:08  <defunctzombie>there is node js and there is browser
05:02:10  <Raynos>and the rest of your code is clean
05:02:13  <Raynos>and it works in all environments
05:02:28  <defunctzombie>yes.. and in your case hte code is not clean
05:02:33  <Raynos>I use browserify: field for this
05:02:46  <defunctzombie>shim is an extension of that concept
05:02:49  <Raynos>oh the code that wraps host environments is never clean
05:02:51  <defunctzombie>that provides more flexibility
05:03:02  <Raynos>shim should just provide an alternative index.js
05:03:04  <Raynos>thats all you need
05:03:06  <defunctzombie>look at the engine.io example
05:03:07  <defunctzombie>no
05:03:10  <defunctzombie>that is not all you need
05:03:14  <defunctzombie>engine.io example
05:03:20  <defunctzombie>very little is shimmed
05:03:26  <defunctzombie>the rest of the code is re-used
05:03:43  <Raynos>i actually fixed engine.io
05:03:47  <Raynos>so it can be used with browserify
05:03:47  <defunctzombie>yea
05:03:49  <defunctzombie>the fi is bad
05:03:53  <defunctzombie>(require)(foo)
05:03:57  <defunctzombie>is a very very bad way to do it
05:04:18  <defunctzombie>again.. a quirk of the tool, but not a good way to do it since looking at that I know nothing about wtf is going on
05:04:18  <Raynos>not really
05:04:21  <defunctzombie>yes really
05:04:28  <Raynos>shim in the package.json is the exact same
05:04:32  <Raynos>you ahve to read the fucking package.json
05:04:34  <Raynos>to figure out
05:04:39  <Raynos>at least (require)(foo) is in the code
05:04:42  <Raynos>and you can see its a fork in the code
05:04:44  <defunctzombie>no it isn't
05:04:47  <defunctzombie>require)(foo)
05:04:53  <defunctzombie>means I have to have learned some random information somewhere
05:05:01  <defunctzombie>that is not even documented
05:05:04  <Raynos>same with shim
05:05:07  <Raynos>your just bikeshedding
05:05:11  <defunctzombie>no it isn't
05:05:12  <defunctzombie>anyhow
05:05:27  <defunctzombie>in one case you are describing the package
05:05:35  <defunctzombie>in anothre you are reshaping the language
05:05:55  <Raynos>not reshaping the language
05:06:01  <Raynos>simply putting hints in the tools
05:06:06  <Raynos>because the tools dont auto figure it out
05:06:09  <Raynos>you put hints in the package
05:06:11  <Raynos>I put hints in the code
05:06:15  <defunctzombie>the hint not in the tool here
05:06:18  <Raynos>sure the browiseryf hack
05:06:20  <defunctzombie>yes.. but this is silly
05:06:21  <Raynos>should be well documented
05:06:33  <defunctzombie>because (require)(foo)
05:06:36  <defunctzombie>is valid js
05:07:13  <defunctzombie>what you are talking about is metadata
05:07:17  <defunctzombie>not code
05:07:22  <defunctzombie>and that should be in package.json
05:07:47  <Raynos>but thats irrelevant
05:07:54  <Raynos>(require)(foo) never gets executed on the client
05:08:08  <Raynos>if (1 === 0) process.exit(42)
05:08:11  <Raynos>doesnt kill your app
05:08:15  <defunctzombie>?
05:08:22  <defunctzombie>(require)(foo) is valid js
05:08:27  <defunctzombie>why wouldn't it be executed
05:08:31  <defunctzombie>is should be executed
05:08:35  <defunctzombie>in my code it is executed
05:09:03  <Raynos>its not
05:09:07  <Raynos>because thats the server path
05:09:10  <Raynos>its only executed on the server
05:09:12  <Raynos>not in the browser
05:09:13  <defunctzombie>it isn't
05:09:14  <Raynos>because its
05:09:15  <defunctzombie>that is my point
05:09:22  <defunctzombie>it is not the server path
05:09:26  <defunctzombie>it is js in your codebase
05:09:29  <Raynos>it is
05:09:33  <Raynos>oh cmon.
05:09:34  <defunctzombie>that you would expect to be as is
05:09:36  <Raynos>there is an IE8 path
05:09:39  <Raynos>and theres a chrome path
05:09:44  <defunctzombie>?
05:09:48  <Raynos>in IE8 you use localstorage
05:09:51  <Raynos>in chrome you use indexeddb
05:09:54  <Raynos>its a split, a fork.
05:09:59  <defunctzombie>so
05:10:19  <Raynos>so the indexeddb code
05:10:21  <Raynos>will crash in IE8
05:10:26  <Raynos>just like the nodejs code will crash in IE8
05:10:30  <Raynos>it should not be executed
05:10:39  <defunctzombie>look, I mean... honestly. to me this is one of those things that either makes sense or you doesn't and you can continue to do it your way
05:10:46  <defunctzombie>to me (require)(foo)
05:10:49  <defunctzombie>is total bs
05:10:50  <Raynos>(require)(code) is a compiler hint
05:10:50  <Raynos>that's all it is
05:10:56  <Raynos>its a hint to tell browserify
05:10:57  <Raynos>dont bundle it
05:11:02  <Raynos>its like a C pragma
05:11:09  <Raynos>to tell the compiler "actually I know better, do this instead"
05:11:18  <Raynos>I agree its a shit API
05:11:22  <Raynos>but who gives a fuck
05:11:24  <defunctzombie>preprocessor is satan
05:11:26  <Raynos>im not going to rewrite browserify
05:11:29  <defunctzombie>Raynos: I give a fuck
05:11:31  <Raynos>if you do
05:11:32  <Raynos>and its better
05:11:34  <defunctzombie>because I like to make things better
05:11:34  <Raynos>then let me know
05:11:47  <defunctzombie>and I like to propose what I think are better ways going forward
05:12:08  <defunctzombie>you are using (require)(foo) not because you like it but because that was there
05:12:18  <defunctzombie>I did make something I like better
05:12:23  <Raynos>the problem is
05:12:25  <defunctzombie>my post was not vaporware ;)
05:12:29  <defunctzombie>I use what I made
05:12:32  <Raynos>is your tool better then browserify
05:12:36  <defunctzombie>the first iterations didn't have these things
05:12:37  <Raynos>does it have the same test coverage
05:12:40  <Raynos>is it faster
05:12:44  <defunctzombie>for my needs it is better
05:12:48  <Raynos>does it compile to somethign smaller
05:12:52  <defunctzombie>yes
05:12:56  <Raynos>how do I swap it out in production
05:13:05  <defunctzombie>however you want
05:13:06  <Raynos>how do I trust you to not break my code :D
05:13:10  <defunctzombie>I dunno how you do it in production
05:13:16  <defunctzombie>how do you trust anyone?
05:13:25  <Raynos>i trust substack by sheer chance
05:13:27  <defunctzombie>look.. it is a module I am working on to solve some use cases I have
05:13:32  <Raynos>and by knowing a great deal about the browserify internals
05:13:52  <defunctzombie>but when those internals change?
05:13:52  <Raynos>But sriously
05:13:53  <Raynos>link.
05:13:58  <defunctzombie>link to what?
05:14:27  <defunctzombie>I use it through my middleware
05:14:29  <Raynos>to your compiler
05:14:41  <defunctzombie>https://github.com/shtylman/node-script
05:14:44  <defunctzombie>that is the tool
05:15:00  <defunctzombie>if you like browserify I would stick with that honestly
05:15:17  <defunctzombie>my goal is not to replace browserify, I would be using browserify if it did the things i needed :)
05:15:20  <defunctzombie>and maybe one day it will
05:15:41  <Raynos>no manual build step is bullshit
05:15:45  <defunctzombie>?
05:15:48  <defunctzombie>there is a cli
05:16:01  <defunctzombie>for your manual build step if you want
05:16:12  <defunctzombie>personally I think manual build step is bs, so ;)
05:16:16  <defunctzombie>I have a computer
05:16:19  <defunctzombie>if I wanted manual work
05:16:23  <defunctzombie>I wouldn't have a computer
05:16:32  <Raynos>the problem with doing it dynamically
05:16:34  <Raynos>is that its too slow
05:16:37  <Raynos>doesn't scale
05:16:41  <defunctzombie>it scales
05:16:43  <defunctzombie>it is fast
05:16:46  <Raynos>the best you can do is do it on a watch
05:16:47  <defunctzombie>and I don't have any of those problems
05:17:01  <Raynos>either your one isnt as slow as browserify
05:17:05  <Raynos>or your not using enough code
05:17:22  <defunctzombie>I have plenty of code and it works fine
05:17:32  <defunctzombie>maybe you have more code.. I dunno
05:17:37  <defunctzombie>honestly it hasn't been a problem
05:17:45  <defunctzombie>so I can't speak about it as if it is a problem for me
05:18:08  <Raynos>maybe ill give it a try some itme
05:18:17  <defunctzombie>I am the only one that uses it
05:18:21  <defunctzombie>(most likely)
05:18:30  <defunctzombie>I am not trying to convince you to use it ;)
05:18:56  <Raynos>oh but I want an alternative to browserify
05:18:59  <Raynos>browserify sucks
05:19:01  <Raynos>its too slow
05:19:03  <Raynos>too complex
05:19:07  <Raynos>doesnt have all the features
05:19:15  <defunctzombie>james is making it better
05:19:23  <Raynos>by removing features
05:19:29  <defunctzombie>heh
05:19:30  <Raynos>and telling people to unix pipes whatever they want :P
05:19:42  <defunctzombie>well, the idea is that the core can be simpler
05:19:49  <defunctzombie>what features do you want?
05:20:05  <defunctzombie>everyone has their list of features
05:20:21  <defunctzombie>the question is does it need to be integral to the tool or something bolted on :/
05:21:25  * st_lukejoined
05:21:44  <st_luke>Yo substack
05:24:33  * st_lukequit (Client Quit)
05:25:47  <substack>hoy
05:28:58  <Raynos>defunctzombie: performance. That's the only feature I want
05:29:04  <Raynos>MORE PERFORMANS
05:29:04  <LOUDBOT>I RECORDED QUAKE LIVE SO I COULD TIMESHIFT IT FOR MY PARENTS
05:29:06  <Raynos>PER FORE MANS
05:29:07  <LOUDBOT>I THOUGHT IT WAS CHARLIE SHEEN
05:30:32  <defunctzombie>Raynos: performance needs more clarification :) and usually depends on your use case
05:30:53  <Raynos>less size
05:30:56  <Raynos>faster compilation
05:30:57  <guybrush>raynos browserify is too slow?
05:30:59  <Raynos>client side caching
05:31:12  <guybrush>wtf where do you need it being so fast
05:31:14  <defunctzombie>client side caching is not a browserify issue
05:31:15  <Raynos>also sharing dependencies across multiple bundles
05:31:16  <defunctzombie>you can do that
05:31:32  <defunctzombie>yes, sharing deps is important.. that is another thing I needed script to do
05:31:35  <guybrush>you have so much code?
05:31:35  <Raynos>guybrush: the part where I hit ctrl + S and my browser refreshes with the new code instantly
05:31:44  <defunctzombie>but some of the other things I think is outside the scope of the bundler
05:31:47  <Raynos>INSTANTLY
05:31:59  <Raynos>client side caching is outside of teh scope of the bundler
05:32:06  <guybrush>i dont know, but the google-thing sounded cool
05:32:11  <defunctzombie>Raynos: if you have middleware then it works instaly
05:32:16  <guybrush>the google code server experiment whatever thing
05:32:18  <defunctzombie>and will load on demand
05:32:20  <Raynos>...
05:32:29  <Raynos>loading on demand requires a server
05:32:30  <Raynos>it can work
05:32:32  <Raynos>but it requires speed
05:32:35  <Raynos>everything requires speed
05:32:37  <defunctzombie>works for me
05:32:43  <defunctzombie>maybe I have better computers ;)
05:32:43  <Raynos>last time I tried it
05:32:46  <Raynos>browserify took 3s
05:33:01  <defunctzombie>for what amount of code?
05:33:04  <guybrush>wow :D
05:33:04  <Raynos>I do have 2MB of uncompressed JS
05:33:14  <Raynos>< WRITES REAL APPS
05:33:15  <LOUDBOT>LOCK UP THE BABIES, DJ CRUNCHER IN THE HOUSE!
05:33:30  <defunctzombie>more code doesn't make a real app ;P
05:33:35  <defunctzombie>maybe you write too much code ;)
05:34:00  <Raynos>$ npm ls | wc -l
05:34:00  <Raynos>338
05:34:05  <guybrush>that must be like 3dstudiomax in the browser
05:34:09  <Raynos>REAL MEN HAVE OVER 300 DEPENDENCIES
05:34:09  <LOUDBOT>ANDROIDS DREAM OF CUPCAKES AND DONUTS AND ECLAIRS
05:34:25  <defunctzombie>um
05:34:33  <defunctzombie>that probably included sub dependencies
05:34:39  <defunctzombie>and is all that being bundled up?
05:34:42  <Raynos>$ npm ls | wc -l
05:34:42  <Raynos>386
05:34:44  <Raynos>Oh wow
05:34:48  <Raynos>that other one has 386 >_<
05:34:54  <guybrush>haha
05:35:04  <Raynos>thats just stupid
05:35:19  <defunctzombie>Raynos: also, yes, script is faster because I use a different version of node-detective
05:35:29  <guybrush>Raynos: you are rolling your production with git or npm? :D
05:35:48  <Raynos>git
05:35:51  <Raynos>npm is way too slow
05:35:53  <Raynos>for production
05:36:01  <defunctzombie>one of the things it doesn't do is the (require)(foo) stuff, which allows it to be faster since it removes range changes in esprima
05:36:03  <Raynos>REWRITE ALL THE TOOLS. DONT BREAK API. JUST INCREASE SPEED
05:36:04  <defunctzombie>?
05:36:04  <LOUDBOT>#IGETSOMADWHEN THAT BITCH DOESN'T REMEMBER TO COOK THAT DAMNED ROAST BEFORE I GET HOME
05:36:09  <defunctzombie>npm is too slow?
05:36:13  <defunctzombie>wtf...
05:36:16  <Raynos>npm install takes like 2 minutes
05:36:19  <defunctzombie>why do you need it to be faster
05:36:23  <Raynos>and crashes half the time
05:36:42  <defunctzombie>maybe you need less deps ;)
05:36:49  <substack>more deps
05:36:52  <defunctzombie>or realize that a large project will just time time to install
05:37:01  <guybrush>every function should be a dep haha
05:37:07  <Raynos>substack: <Raynos> $ npm ls | wc -l <Raynos> 386
05:37:10  <defunctzombie>if you install all the time maybe clone the npm repo
05:37:10  <Raynos>Surely that's wrong right?
05:37:13  <defunctzombie>and install locally
05:37:20  <defunctzombie>people have been doing this with debian repos for ages
05:37:25  <Raynos>guybrush: +1
05:37:51  <defunctzombie>anyhow.. if npm is slow.. see how you can make it faster ;)
05:38:06  <defunctzombie>again, I don't have a problem with its speed so can't help there :D
05:38:13  <Raynos>the thing is
05:38:18  <Raynos>I dont feel like fixing all these problems
05:38:21  <Raynos>I write too much code.
05:38:33  <defunctzombie>if you don't fix your problems
05:38:41  <defunctzombie>then either they are not serious enough
05:38:42  <Raynos>I need to inspire other people
05:38:44  <Raynos>to fix my problems
05:38:51  <Raynos>this is optimum
05:38:51  <guybrush>good thinking
05:38:53  <defunctzombie>or you don't care about them
05:39:09  <Raynos>I have too much to do ._.
05:39:15  <Raynos>I have to give a talk on thursday about leveldb & p2p
05:39:23  <Raynos>and I havn't finished the demos
05:39:34  <guybrush>Raynos: did you try to go the component route?
05:39:41  <defunctzombie>NO
05:39:43  <guybrush>like write a stupid component.json in every pkg
05:39:44  <guybrush>haha
05:39:56  <defunctzombie>jesus christ
05:40:16  <defunctzombie>as if we couldn't think of a way to make this even more confusing
05:40:22  <guybrush>omg WHY not just use package.json, we could all just be happy and agree on that :D
05:40:24  <defunctzombie>fucking rpm vs deb all over again
05:41:41  <Raynos>guybrush: I will puke.
05:42:12  <Raynos>TJ is excellent
05:42:16  <Raynos>at writing things that are just good enough
05:42:27  <Raynos>and getting everyone to waste their time using tools that are basically not good enough
05:42:54  <defunctzombie>don't be a hater ;)
05:43:17  <guybrush>Raynos hates just everything but streams
05:43:22  <guybrush>esp middlewares
05:43:24  <Raynos>Not true!
05:43:26  <Raynos>I hate streams too
05:43:29  <Raynos>Fucking hate streams.
05:43:31  <Raynos>Far too complex
05:44:49  <Raynos>if theres anywhere you will find it a bug with streams
05:44:54  <Raynos>I garantuee its in mux demux!
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05:52:46  <guybrush>https://github.com/google/module-server looks cool
05:54:20  <Raynos>yeah but it feels overkill :D
05:55:54  <guybrush>well i think bfy just is the best solution right now
05:56:27  <guybrush>as soon as there is need for multiple bundles just deal with it and load the extra code
05:57:49  <Raynos>well I am loading multiple bundles
05:57:53  <Raynos>it just runs into the npm dedup problem
05:57:58  <guybrush>crazy
05:57:58  <Raynos>which sucks
05:58:37  <guybrush>if its really a hard problem for you, its time for you to step in and fix it :ppp
06:00:42  <Raynos>No!
06:00:52  <Raynos>I want to write less code
06:00:53  <Raynos>nore more
06:03:19  <guybrush>they should solve the problem in node-core!!
06:03:44  <guybrush>it just doesnt fit the userland haha
06:09:50  <Raynos>they should solve all problems in node-core!!
06:10:00  <Raynos>node-core should just require("hoarders")
06:10:09  <guybrush>haha
06:32:29  <substack>ok so mocha is giving me invalid tap output >_<
06:33:14  <substack>the tap reporter doesn't behave the same in the browser as the server
06:34:06  <ik>guess it's time to switch to C#
06:34:18  <substack>I GUESS SO
06:34:19  <LOUDBOT>BY WHICH I MEAN A GLASS OF WINE
06:34:34  <substack>ik: I actually really hate mocha and prefer tiny things that just print strings to stdout
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07:09:57  <defunctzombie>substack: I prefer for my code to test itself
07:10:06  <defunctzombie>and yearn for the singularity
07:10:11  <defunctzombie>which will allow suck marvels
07:11:48  * substacklikes unclever tests
07:12:14  <ik>nerp
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09:30:11  <juliangruber>substack: do you understand why someone would write something like mocha?
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10:39:34  <guybrush>substack: i dont like that tape doesnt display linenumbers
10:39:39  <guybrush>or do i miss something?
10:41:48  <juliangruber>guybrush: do you do t.equal(1, 2, 'my super helpful message') ?
10:42:59  <guybrush>yes
10:43:42  <guybrush>somehow i really like just using async and assert :D
10:45:43  <guybrush>i like mocha because its easy to just drop mocha and use mocha-test-files with anything else
10:46:05  <guybrush>just require the file and iterate through the export
10:46:47  <guybrush>that is, when you write exports-style
10:46:56  <juliangruber>guybrush: that's nice with mocha, it just works as you'd expect it to. therefore it's not "correct"
10:47:26  <guybrush>i dont understand that :p
10:48:42  <guybrush>i have javascript files with module.exports = {foo:function(){},bar:{blub:function(){}}}, thats how i like to write test-files, or even module.exports = function(){}
10:49:06  <guybrush>others may prefer not exporting but just executing the test-functions
10:49:30  <juliangruber>oh
10:49:32  <guybrush>but with the way i like to do it, i can easily implement things like keywords and stuff
10:49:33  <juliangruber>I don't doo that
10:49:38  <juliangruber>do
10:49:39  <guybrush>grep meta-information and things
10:50:15  <guybrush>but usually i just run mocha since it just works with that style
10:50:29  <juliangruber>I guess I never needed that much flexibility and meta info for tests
10:50:54  <guybrush>really i just like that its possible (and fits my mind and stuff)
10:51:53  <guybrush>in the end all that matters is to have tests at all :p
10:52:02  <juliangruber>yup :)
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16:37:29  <rowbit>/!\ ATTENTION: (default-local) smaus@... successfully signed up for developer browserling plan ($20). Cash money! /!\
16:37:29  <rowbit>/!\ ATTENTION: (default-local) paid account successfully upgraded /!\
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17:42:09  <ik>hi
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19:21:57  <dominictarr>st_luke, ping?
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20:09:26  <st_luke>dominictarr: pong
20:09:48  <dominictarr>st_luke, hey whats up? how are you enjoying funemployment?
20:10:10  * b__joined
20:10:44  <st_luke>dominictarr: not quite yet, I'm still doing a little bit of lingering at the company cause I want to get some of the new people squared away
20:12:33  <st_luke>how long are you in town? I've got an extra cell phone you're free to borrow for as long as you need if you want to be on the grid
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20:16:48  <dominictarr>st_luke, ah good
20:17:00  <dominictarr>I'm in town until the 26th!
20:17:48  <dominictarr>a phone would be handy. I have a feeling that new york is gonna be a phone town.
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20:19:17  <dominictarr>okay, going to meet paolo, bbiab.
20:19:52  <st_luke>dominictarr: cool man, I'll be around
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20:42:38  <defunctzombie>st_luke: want to go to that dessert place tonight?
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21:18:01  <st_luke>defunctzombie: probably not tonight, I drank a bit too much last night and am still feeling a bit ill from it
21:18:27  <fotoverite>was that way last week not fun.
21:19:13  <st_luke>yeah I guess this is why I don't usually drink
21:21:22  * substackinvestigates why mocha's tap output is completely broken in the browser
21:22:52  <substack>slaskis, defunctzombie: I'm considering putting a "harness" field in the testling field in package.json that will handle all the harness issues when set to "mocha"
21:23:21  <substack>once I get this stuff working in the first place that is
21:23:32  * _ritchpart
21:23:49  <slaskis>substack: haha, sounds great
21:24:57  <substack>then the next big part will be running server components as part of a browser test
21:25:18  <substack>I want this for repos like dnode and shoe
21:27:42  <pkrumins>substack: did you hear back about the other invoice?
21:27:54  <pkrumins>if not let me know and i'll contact the people
21:31:05  <substack>not yet
21:31:08  <substack>give them a bit more
21:31:42  <pkrumins>alright!
21:31:46  * substackgetting mocha tests running on testling-ci
21:32:12  <substack>it's pretty close except that mocha isn't giving valid tap in browser mode
21:32:15  <pkrumins>that is amazing
21:32:48  <slaskis>is it different tap output compared to the server?
21:32:56  <substack>yes
21:33:08  <substack>here's an example:
21:33:51  <substack>https://gist.github.com/4262317
21:34:15  <slaskis>oh
21:34:18  <substack>for the same test file
21:34:32  <slaskis>so it's the string formatter of console.log that doesnt work in the browser
21:34:36  <substack>aha!
21:34:40  <substack>that would explain it
21:34:43  <slaskis>:)
21:34:56  <slaskis>i've had similar issues
21:35:01  <substack>except that it also reports a failing test
21:35:03  <substack>for some reason
21:35:14  <substack>I'll shim out the formatter part though
21:35:17  <slaskis>%d for one thing doesn't even work with 0 in chrome which is dumb
21:35:24  <substack>crazy
21:35:36  <slaskis>it formats it as an empty string
21:36:37  <slaskis>wait, gist has changed a lot
21:36:43  <slaskis>since like, hours ago
21:36:47  <substack>yes
21:36:53  <substack>they just rolled out big changes
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21:38:49  <slaskis>cool
21:52:55  <Raynos>http://www.meetup.com/East-Bay-HTML5/events/91451482/
21:52:59  <Raynos>substack: Your comign to that right?
21:53:04  <substack>yep
21:58:59  <isaacs>mbalho: http://imgur.com/y779M
21:59:27  <fotoverite>O god.
22:00:00  <fotoverite>I don't know that's better or worse then http://trotify.com/
22:06:48  <substack>slaskis: I've got the mocha example working locally now
22:07:00  <substack>thanks for noticing the %[ds] thing!
22:07:05  <slaskis>substack: cool!
22:07:15  <slaskis>let me know if you want me to try it out
22:07:32  <slaskis>np
22:07:45  <substack>great!
22:10:11  <substack>rolling this out pretty soon
22:10:28  <substack>pkrumins is on it right now in fact
22:11:52  <ik>\o/
22:12:00  <ik> | that guy!
22:12:02  <ik>/ \
22:12:37  <pkrumins>it's running!
22:13:26  <st_luke>930 modules until 20000
22:13:39  <st_luke>I mean 929
22:13:49  <fotoverite>Woot, need to run my states and regenerate my graphs
22:17:30  * st_lukequit (Remote host closed the connection)
22:18:01  <substack>http://ci.testling.com/substack/mocha-testling-ci-example !!!
22:18:12  <slaskis>woohoo!
22:18:31  <slaskis>are those ie errors expected?
22:18:51  <substack>well I guess mocha just doesn't work in ie yet
22:18:56  <substack>the other browsers are fine
22:19:10  <slaskis>ooh
22:19:56  <substack>ok so the next thing I'll do is add the "harness": "mocha" field I talked about earlier
22:20:12  <substack>defunctzombie: it works now! http://ci.testling.com/substack/mocha-testling-ci-example https://github.com/substack/mocha-testling-ci-example
22:26:08  <slaskis>it might be should.js that's not supported in ie. i think it uses some es5 stuff. what if you'd use expect.js? (also common w. mocha)
22:26:51  <slaskis>or a plain assert
22:28:28  <defunctzombie>substack: nice! so all that is needed is "harness": "mocha" and no other files?
22:28:56  <substack>yes once I write that part
22:29:26  <substack>slaskis: trying with plain asserts
22:30:27  <substack>it works :D
22:30:49  <slaskis>fun!
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22:30:54  <substack>http://ci.testling.com/substack/mocha-testling-ci-example
22:32:13  <slaskis>magic :)
22:32:31  <pkrumins>sweet
22:32:45  <defunctzombie>\o/
22:32:49  <slaskis>your output page sure does not like long project names :P
22:33:32  <defunctzombie>substack: let me know when you think it is reasonable and I will throw my int and num packages on there :)
22:33:43  <substack>slaskis: yep I'll fix that in a bit
22:33:51  <substack>defunctzombie: sweet
22:33:53  <defunctzombie>I use those browser side quite a bit so I will be happy to be a guinea pig
22:34:33  <substack>this approach seems really solid so far
22:35:10  <defunctzombie>k
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22:53:17  <CoverSlide>http://i.minus.com/ijCBM2h1of0vE.gif
22:56:14  <dominictarr>fotoverite, you know the ace? paolo is recommending it
22:56:56  <hij1nx>yep ace hotel might be nice for drinks right now
22:57:25  <hij1nx>less crazy during the weekday +has drinks/internet
22:58:14  <hij1nx>http://www.acehotel.com/newyork/dining
23:01:15  <mbalho>isaacs: that is meant for me
23:06:12  * devaholicquit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
23:07:20  <isaacs>mbalho: almost
23:07:23  <isaacs>it'd be better if it was a cat
23:07:27  <isaacs>mbalho: but yes, i think they had you in mind.
23:16:42  * defunctzombiechanged nick to defunctzombie_zz
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23:43:06  <jjjjohnnny>High Frequency Trading Bots acting like scalpers http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2012-12-11/guest-post-five-minute-example-hft-shenanigans
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23:48:27  <Raynos>substack: https://github.com/airportyh/testem/pull/124 tape's output is different from tap for `.stack` property. How should tap consumers handle these edgecases cleanly?
23:49:22  <substack>tap consumers should be really really lenient about accepting so-called malformed input
23:53:15  <dominictarr>"differently formed" would be more PC
23:53:25  <dominictarr>or "schema challenged"
23:54:01  <Raynos>isaacs, substack: tape / tap has a Test.prototype.throws thats not back compat with assert.throws.
23:54:06  <Raynos>This is >:(
23:54:16  * substackjust copied tap
23:54:54  <substack>Raynos: you should write tap-assert
23:55:02  <substack>exactly the node assert api but it outputs tap
23:55:16  <Raynos>that would be good
23:55:19  <Raynos>way lighter then tape
23:55:22  <Raynos>and tape can use it
23:55:24  <Raynos>but not now! :P
23:59:45  <isaacs>substack: i already wrote that
23:59:49  <isaacs>Raynos: it's called tt