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03:02:23  <jesusabdullah>substack: https://github.com/jesusabdullah/bart-api USE THIS
03:08:56  <st_luke>love dat xml
03:13:29  <jesusabdullah>not me
03:13:34  <jesusabdullah>I spent way too long with that
03:13:39  <jesusabdullah>>_<
03:13:52  <jesusabdullah>at least libxmljs turns out to have a reasonably useful api :D
03:16:12  <st_luke>yeah still makes a goddamn mess though, not super fun at all
03:16:27  <st_luke>lmao, I tweeted at [0] and he ninja'd me on the phone
03:30:35  <jesusabdullah>substack: st_luke: https://github.com/jesusabdullah/bart-api/blob/master/example/elevators.js
03:33:22  <st_luke>lols
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03:34:16  <st_luke>lolz the government just took a bunch of my engineering bonus in taxes thanks bros
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03:55:08  <st_luke>jesusabdullah: last time I rode the bart they yelled at people for standing on the yellow line
03:57:35  <jesusabdullah>lulz
04:00:47  <isaacs>st_luke: bonuses get extra taxed.
04:00:55  <isaacs>st_luke: since it's "additional" pay
04:01:02  <isaacs>st_luke: "Oh, you weren't using that, were you?
04:03:09  <st_luke>isaacs: well as long as they use it for something like extra weapons for the military I guess I don't mind too much
04:04:15  <dools>BONUS WEAPONS!
04:04:57  <isaacs>st_luke: more likely, it'll end up in the pocket of a friend of a senator of a state you don't even live in.
04:05:18  <isaacs>st_luke: but dollars are fungible
04:05:24  <isaacs>st_luke: they're like quarks
04:05:34  <isaacs>st_luke: so you can just pretend that any dollar you see doing good, came from you.
04:05:53  <isaacs>st_luke: and all the other dollars are the other poor saps who fund the bad and stupid parts of the government.
04:06:34  <isaacs>st_luke: i like to think that my every one of my tax dollars go to collecting tax dollars.
04:06:35  <st_luke>look at this road my money just built!
04:07:08  <isaacs>the extra fields on this year's 1040XP8j? Yep. This guy.
04:07:25  <isaacs>My tax dollars at work, collecting your tax dollars.
04:08:14  <st_luke>maybe all of my tax dollars go to paying for coffee in government buildings for which people are supposed to leave 50 cents anyway
04:12:01  <isaacs>oh, god, those poor people.
04:12:13  <isaacs>we need more automation, for the sake of their souls.
04:17:56  <st_luke>automation is very threatening to government employees
04:29:46  <isaacs>st_luke: yes, it is the natural predator of government jobs
04:30:02  <isaacs>it's rough in healthcare industries, as well
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04:30:33  <isaacs>basically every field where you really need people to be taking advantage of every improvement, they aren't.
04:31:04  <isaacs>now, computer games and porn and fast food, whooooo boy. they're all over all the newest advances in technology.
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05:05:01  <dools>isaacs: well, i think you can see why right?
05:05:43  <dools>no-one really relies on porn or computer games to live. banking, government, healthcare and education are all the slowest moving but they also have in common that they are the most vital services and if you fuck with them, results are beyond catastrophic
05:05:56  <dools>excess bureacracy in some cases can act as a form of quality control
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05:14:14  <isaacs>dools: indeed. you wouldn't want your quality to be too excessive and spiral out of control.
05:14:21  <isaacs>dools: what would we do with all that quality, then?
05:14:44  <isaacs>dools: i don't buy that you can say "X is important, therefor, should not be innovated upon"
05:15:40  <isaacs>dools: i think what those have in common is that they're complex systems where there is a profound power disparity.
05:16:12  <isaacs>dools: and thus, no incentive at all for the powerful to change things, and no ability for the powerless to change things.
05:16:16  <isaacs>dools: thus, no changes.
05:16:33  <chapel>isaacs: I agree
05:16:36  <isaacs>dools: history shows that medical care, banking, and government ARE subject to rapid changes when the power disparity tips even slightly.
05:16:42  <chapel>with your complaint and observations
05:17:03  <isaacs>sometimes explosive awful changes :)
05:17:08  <dools>history shows that? what examples did you have in mind?
05:17:29  <dools>oh, you mean like revolution and war? they're really violent and result in massive loss of life and destablisation of society
05:17:58  <isaacs>dools: banking: the shift from church-controlled landed wealth to banking systems as trading became a bigger deal in renaissance europe
05:18:16  <isaacs>dools: and then again, much later, with the shift from "hard" currency (gold, silver, etc.) to trust money
05:18:39  <isaacs>though, that was less about haves and have-nots, and more about used-to-haves and just-started-having's
05:18:44  <dools>and that took how many centuries?
05:18:53  <isaacs>wel, the shift was inside a generation
05:19:08  <isaacs>as for government, that pedestal is very wobbly
05:19:18  <isaacs>basically every revolution ever is an example.
05:19:23  <isaacs>and most wars.
05:19:50  <dools>so you're saying you'd rather have a war to speed things up so you can use your ipad to download your health records?
05:20:37  <isaacs>no, i'm saying, it's shitty that people die of preventable diseases, because they have to wait for it to be an emergency, and thus more expensive, because their death is easier to manage than letting them have access to proper health care.
05:20:47  <isaacs>and i think that, eventually, if this problem is not managed, it will be a war, yes.
05:21:33  * isaacsis DEEEEEEP in the procrastination stack now..
05:21:42  <isaacs>discussing politics in #stackvm.
05:21:46  <isaacs>boy, i'm really digging
05:21:52  <isaacs>next thign you know, i'll be doing laundry or something.
05:22:03  <dools>that's a big problem in the states. it could be solved by introducing compulsory voting, though
05:22:34  <isaacs>dools: i dunno, i think not voting is an important righ.
05:22:37  <isaacs>*right
05:22:38  <dools>which is, when you come down to it, the root cause of the bulk of the problems with the US democracy
05:23:09  <dools>(including the inherent mistrust of the federal government which is one of the biggest barriers to universal healthcare right?
05:23:10  <st_luke>dools: I'm not sure compulsory voting would solve a problem that in a lot of ways is related to how many interpret the available information
05:23:15  <isaacs>voting in the US is only half as bad as a totalitarian state where you can only vote for one party.
05:23:23  <isaacs>(since we have 2 parties that say the same thing, instead of one)
05:24:09  <dools>st_luke: one of the biggest issues that compulsory voting solves is that those people who are most vulnerable currently often don't get the chance to vote
05:24:12  <isaacs>dools: the biggest impediment to universal healthcare in the US is that the Republican (conservative) party has their constituents convinced that they're the "small government" party, since they dont' approve of giving people handouts.
05:24:25  <dools>because voting isn't a legal requirement, it's not encumbent upon employers to ensure their staff get the chance to vote
05:24:32  <isaacs>dools: to its credit, the US does go to extreme lengths to make sure that everyone CAN vote.
05:24:58  <isaacs>dools: employers must let their staff vote, and even if you haven't registered in advance, you can always just go vote, and let them sort it out
05:25:04  <st_luke>dools: this is anecdotal, but I've never had an employer that didn't go out of their way to make sure employees could vote if they wanted to
05:25:09  <isaacs>dools: if you can't make it to a voting station, then you can call them, and they'll come to you.
05:25:29  <isaacs>st_luke: they have to. it's a violation of federal law to even suggest that your employees can't go vote.
05:25:43  <isaacs>st_luke: like, a "fine that will put you out of business" law.
05:26:16  <dools>hmm. well, i have read various accounts and analysis over the years in various forgotten places that indicate that's a huge part of the problem but since i don't live in america and don't have any sources of information to back up my claims i can't really contest it
05:26:34  <isaacs>dools: that's not to say that there are no shenanigans
05:26:48  <dools>i think the shenanigans are what i'm referring to
05:26:57  <dools>ie. that there's a pretty serious implementation gap between policy and reality
05:27:01  <isaacs>dools: both parties deny it, of course, but there have been a lot of cases of people putting up fake posters about the wrong day in certain neighborhoods, etc.
05:27:06  <isaacs>dools: but it's super illegal.
05:27:09  <dools>+
05:27:10  <dools>ur
05:27:46  <isaacs>dools: that stuff is usually policed pretty strictly, though
05:27:50  <dools>yeah we get a bit of that shit here, too. it's pretty low rent compared to the states, though (smaller economy and all - they sort of end up looking like schoolyard pranks)
05:27:59  <dools>well, maybe i don't really know
05:28:26  <dools>i can certainly conceive that it would be a major source of the problem "we'll police it so don't worry" is rarely that comforting
05:28:33  <isaacs>dools: like, why bother risking going to jail or being impeached, when you can jsut run an ad on tv that blatantly lies about your opponent, and have your buddies finance it for you, so you're not actually connected to it?
05:28:53  <dools>haha
05:29:03  <isaacs>the thing is, "keep people from voting" is very difficult, very illegal, and has only shaky results.
05:29:14  <isaacs>it's usually easier to just make them vote the way you want them to.
05:29:38  <isaacs>and we only have two parties at the big levels, both of which are insanely corrupt.
05:29:38  <dools>i'm not saying that it's necessarily a plot by one party or the other
05:29:51  <dools>it's just a reality of the economy
05:29:55  <isaacs>nono, it's just an artifact of a crazy system.
05:29:56  <dools>and of those people's lives
05:29:56  <isaacs>exactly
05:30:26  <isaacs>but, if medical care was as accessible as voting rights in this country, it'd be a better place to live
05:30:34  <isaacs>dools: where do you live?
05:30:39  <dools>yeah but I think that it would be resolved at least in part (and my hunch is in a large part) by compulsory voting. i kind of fundamentally believe you can't have a functioning democracy without compulsory voting but that may just be cultural bia
05:30:43  <dools>s
05:30:46  <dools>australia
05:33:31  <isaacs>dools: but what if you really don't want to vote? what happens to you?
05:33:55  <dools>you get a fine
05:34:02  <dools>$100 or something
05:34:12  <isaacs>that sucks
05:34:22  <dools>haha
05:34:22  <isaacs>in California, there's way too much voting going on.
05:34:31  <isaacs>and people don't understand all the various bs things that get put on the ballot
05:34:36  <dools>what sucks more: having to vote, or not having universal health care?
05:34:38  <isaacs>because everyon'es an economist, right?
05:35:10  <isaacs>anything that modifies the state constitution, or requires taking on additional bonded debt above some certain amount, requires a popular vote
05:35:26  <isaacs>so we have all these measures that no one understands
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05:58:12  <st_luke>isaacs: and isn't there typically some confusion around the title of the measure?
05:58:15  <st_luke>proposition x
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06:00:33  <st_luke>whoops
06:10:45  <st_luke>signup forms should stop asking for gender
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06:37:37  <st_luke>sweet gunshot
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13:28:14  <substack>pow
13:28:27  * substackat taipei airport
13:29:09  <substack>I took TWO maglev trains today in separate countries unless you ask the chinese and then it's just a single country with a renegade province
13:29:42  <substack>now eating overpriced airport food that is still less expensive than SF food
13:31:01  <substack>whoa nevermind these portions are gigantic
13:41:30  <substack>so I wrote some stream handbook chapters near jing'an temple and a peace park with a sweet pagota and coy pond in taipei
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14:21:05  <Raynos>https://gist.github.com/3737592
14:21:23  <Raynos>substack: ^ chaining on streams. Good or evil?
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14:57:39  <substack>Raynos: unsure about what problem that gist solves
15:07:10  <Raynos>substack: https://gist.github.com/51b425267dba961d4e52
15:07:24  <Raynos>substack: It solves the problem of pedantry about style choices
15:09:03  * substackstill doesn't get it
15:09:18  <substack>boarding soon, be back in SFO in your past
15:09:23  <substack>it's the future over here
15:11:50  <Raynos>xd
15:12:12  <Raynos>substack: it's just a "oh wait a second. Maybe chaining would make this code better". I don't know whether it makes the code more readable or not
15:12:21  <substack>monday morning here
15:12:35  <substack>hmmm unsure about chaining
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15:18:57  <isaacs>substack: it's monday morning here, too
15:23:37  <Raynos>isaacs: https://github.com/substack/stream-handbook/issues/4
15:23:48  <Raynos>> What's more weird is not knowing whether any stream is 0.8 style or 0.9 style.
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15:24:21  <Raynos>Unless your confident all streams are 0.9 style in your application you can't be confident which module triggers the 0.9 style streams to revert to 0.8 style
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15:24:51  <Raynos>Those are actually minor issues compared to the confusing for people not familiar with streams about the two types and which libraries support which
15:25:04  <Raynos>Alternatively all authors should ensure that all stream modules should work with both 0.8 and 0.9 style
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22:02:33  <harmaz>any browserling people in here?
22:17:35  <pkrumins>i am
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22:26:24  <dools>I AM BROWSERLING PEOPLE
22:32:44  <AvianFlu>LOUDBOT: twitlast
22:32:44  <LOUDBOT>AvianFlu: http://twitter.com/loudbot/status/247825194956242944 (apeiron/#stimutacs)
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