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00:48:16  <SubStack>hoy
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06:13:46  <SubStack>crap >_<
06:14:25  <SubStack>there are free ones though...
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07:31:31  <SubStack>isaacs: so now I am running tap tests in browsers using a custom harness and piping the results over sockjs back to my terminal
07:31:43  <SubStack>and jsonstream
07:45:06  <rowbit>SubStack, pkrumins: Developers waiting in the queue for ie9 (Queue length: 1 on 1 servers. Total servers: 5)
07:45:49  <SubStack>checking
07:46:08  <SubStack>beh there are plenty of servers
07:46:20  <SubStack>it's just the routing algorithm needs tweaking
07:46:26  <SubStack>needs to re-balance
07:46:39  <SubStack>fixing that later, finishing the new testling first
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09:44:41  <SubStack>ok this is super sweet:
09:45:28  <SubStack>I've got tap tests running exactly like in node, except in the browser
09:46:23  <SubStack>well not *quite* exactly, but a bit of polish will fix that
09:46:57  <SubStack>I'm still doing the browserify step manually
09:47:54  <tanepiper>SubStack: not sure if this is a bug or feature - but when I write an example using .connect and .listen, on my server the local and remote events never fire
09:49:02  <SubStack>and it works when you pipe?
09:52:01  <tanepiper>https://gist.github.com/bd54f3886f122359ee0c
09:52:17  <tanepiper>if you run server, then client - client outputs empty objects but the server outputs nothig
09:52:55  <tanepiper>i've not tried a quick example like this with sockjs between two server sockets, but i know it works fine in my app with pipe
09:53:55  <tanepiper>just going to try write a quick test for pipes
09:54:53  <SubStack>odd, I see in the source where those *should* be emitted
09:55:26  <SubStack>it could be related to how .listen() needs to kill an existing instance in order to spin up a server instead
09:55:33  <SubStack>necessary hack to make the pipe api work
09:56:00  <SubStack>could have bugs
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09:59:00  <tanepiper>cool, so i should just avoid that tomorrow then :)
10:02:07  <SubStack>sure
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10:07:44  <tanepiper>confirmed - .listen is b0rked for events - works fine with net streams
10:08:15  <SubStack>want to make an issue for it?
10:08:19  <tanepiper>(e.g. https://gist.github.com/22d9bd4dc6dc2afa4f28 works fine)
10:08:25  <tanepiper>sure, i'll put these two cases in
10:14:38  <SubStack>bit busy this week getting some stuff to work before nodeconf
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10:37:49  <SubStack>ok fucking sweet, got the new testling to automatically browserify the files
10:49:28  <SubStack>aha found a shoe bug
10:49:36  <SubStack>need to buffer 'end's in addition to writes
10:51:33  <SubStack>pow fixed
10:55:15  <SubStack>https://gist.github.com/2987935
10:55:31  <SubStack>that ran in a browser // ^^^ isaacs
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12:13:08  <rowbit>/!\ ATTENTION: (default-local) maintenance@... successfully signed up for developer browserling plan ($20). Cash money! /!\
12:23:43  <SubStack>woot
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12:50:01  <pkrumins>the account didnt get upgraded though
12:52:32  <pkrumins>restarted bouncy stripe and webapp
12:55:54  <SubStack>aha
12:56:53  <SubStack>hacking on the browser manager for the new testling here
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13:05:43  <SubStack>dominictarr: check this out! https://gist.github.com/2987935
13:05:52  <SubStack>that test runs in a headless chrome using xvfb-run
13:06:10  <SubStack>and it gets browserified
13:06:34  <SubStack>and the tap output is streamed back to the command-line using shoe
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13:12:35  <dominictarr>sweet! I saw that.
13:12:44  <dominictarr>xvfb-run?
13:13:11  <SubStack>yep
13:13:23  <dominictarr>what is it?
13:13:25  <tanepiper>i now have to cut out 18m of my talk :D
13:13:33  <pkrumins>runs programs in a virtual framebuffer
13:13:37  <tanepiper>i thought i wouldn't have enough for 30 mins
13:14:23  <dominictarr>hey, substack: what is you nodeconf talk gonna be on?
13:14:55  <dominictarr>cos I am thinking of a blog post, but have a feeling it might be on the same idea.
13:14:59  <SubStack>browserify things
13:15:05  <dominictarr>ah
13:15:11  <tanepiper>oh fuck, meeting :| I fucking hate meetings
13:15:14  <dominictarr>okay, different.
13:16:13  <dominictarr>the new Idea, is build apps over communication abstractions, (like rpc, replicated data, streams, etc)
13:16:28  <dominictarr>and build communication abstractions over streams.
13:16:53  <dominictarr>these are the correct places to put layer boundries.
13:21:32  <SubStack>seems like the right place to put them
13:25:47  <dominictarr>it gives maximum composeability
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13:56:34  <rowbit>SubStack, pkrumins: Developers waiting in the queue for ie8 (Queue length: 1 on 1 servers. Total servers: 3)
13:57:40  <pkrumins>shit why did someone get routed to a used server
13:57:43  <pkrumins>not to the free one
13:58:01  <SubStack>routing algorithm has a bug I think
13:58:05  <SubStack>this happens occasionally
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14:43:27  <tanepiper>http://zerorpc.dotcloud.com/
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16:27:20  <tanepiper>woop woop!
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16:53:01  <chapel>tanepiper: ping
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18:16:01  <isaacs>SubStack: https://twitter.com/creationix/status/217319890862870528
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20:21:26  <bradleymeck>i appear! , substack do you know what you need from a ssh server in node to get auth?
20:23:32  <SubStack>hoy
20:23:44  <SubStack>ssh server in node?
20:24:19  <SubStack>there's user/pass auth or there's public key auth you mean?
20:24:45  <bradleymeck>for propagit in particular
20:24:59  <SubStack>oh propagit doesn't use ssh, it uses http
20:25:13  <SubStack>so you could use https and basic auth probably
20:25:52  <bradleymeck>im going to rewrite my ssh stuff next month probably
20:26:00  <bradleymeck>do you have hooks for auth?
20:26:22  <SubStack>there aren't hooks but you can call the .handle() function explicitly
20:26:28  <SubStack>in pushover
20:26:51  <SubStack>so you could put some auth in front of where handle() gets called
20:28:09  <jesusabdullah>SubStack: Do you expect people to get butthurt over your modules comment y/n
20:28:29  <SubStack>well that would be nice
20:28:35  <ik>booty.
20:28:37  <ik>a man's butt.
20:29:04  <SubStack>ik: indeed
20:29:59  <jesusabdullah>"well that would be nice"
20:30:00  <jesusabdullah>win
20:30:24  <jesusabdullah>Mr. Subb Stack, you said my module proposal was "like python but worse"
20:30:26  <SubStack>ES is full of idiots and es-discuss is a cesspool of misinformanity
20:30:41  <jesusabdullah>yeah man
20:30:44  <jesusabdullah>also
20:30:50  <jesusabdullah>"we should work on this standard"
20:30:59  <jesusabdullah>I think that's funny
20:31:05  <SubStack>working on standards is not the same as working on implementations
20:31:10  <SubStack>like you know, in the real world
20:31:15  <jesusabdullah>because I think the position of, "I don't even approve of standards/specs" is completely valid
20:31:22  <SubStack>where we can interrogate reality to figure out what works
20:31:38  <isaacs>SubStack: i'm about halfway done with a blog post detailing what i actually want from an ES module spec
20:31:40  <jesusabdullah>WHERE ARE YOU KEEPING THE HIGGS BOSON!!
20:31:55  <isaacs>SubStack: ther ARE some ways in which the current state of the art could be improved significantly.
20:32:16  <SubStack>isaacs: have you looked at wreq yet?
20:32:40  <jesusabdullah>SubStack: Do you say it "wreck" too?
20:32:42  <SubStack>wreq is my "fuck you" to all the AMD and ES jerks who keep spouting noise about what is possible
20:32:46  <SubStack>jesusabdullah: correct
20:32:52  <SubStack>because modules are a fucking wreck yo
20:32:54  <jesusabdullah>like a train wreq? ;)
20:34:00  <SubStack>isaacs: make sure to add something about how democracy and design by committee is a terrible way to design software
20:34:41  <isaacs>SubStack: well, i'm reading through the spec now.
20:35:22  <bradleymeck>substack you just need a machiavelli portrait when you say that
20:35:24  <isaacs>SubStack: it *does* look like an honest attempt to deliver something that is somewhat like the common-denominator of functionality that would be needed to implement node moduels as well as rjs or browserify
20:35:40  <isaacs>however, there's a lot of inessential trappings here, and python inspired bs.
20:36:11  <isaacs>and the "export one thing" use case looks like an afterthought (which it was, but the point of progress is to learn from mistakes, not immortalize them)
20:36:35  <isaacs>also, the stuff around naming is just... really weird.
20:37:11  <SubStack>isaacs: it looks like people who have only ever used python modules and <script> tags wrote it
20:37:27  <isaacs>SubStack: well, dherman has used a lot of node, and rburke did rjs
20:37:33  <isaacs>er, jburke
20:37:37  <isaacs>rburke is a different person :)
20:38:42  <SubStack>well then these people obviously either cannot learn from their experiences or are completely spineless or marginalized
20:38:43  <isaacs>SubStack: here's teh thing: you really should not be typing "module {...}" into an editor, ever, unless you'er writing a module system, and even then, probably not
20:38:57  <SubStack>the conclusion is the same: disband ES
20:39:15  <SubStack>isaacs: yes exactly, I put a note about that in my comment
20:39:24  <SubStack>isaacs: but it's worse than that
20:39:33  <SubStack>when you type module you also do module $name {}
20:39:45  <isaacs>the Module spec is sort of like a fancier `;(function(){..your code here..})()`
20:39:47  <SubStack>so libraries are deciding what their export names are, not the consumers
20:39:55  <isaacs>but it's toothless without the Loader spec
20:40:07  <isaacs>and the Loader spec is what we actually need, but it's too big by at least 809%
20:40:09  <isaacs>*80%
20:40:32  <SubStack>the other thing is that probably not even very much of it is necessary at all
20:40:41  <SubStack>see wreq for a counter-example about the necessity argument
20:40:52  <isaacs>well, when you reduce the Loader spec to its essentials, the Module spec is basically nothing
20:41:03  <isaacs>there's no need then for a "module" keyword at all
20:41:16  <SubStack>people just want a team to rally around
20:41:20  <isaacs>the Loader API gives you everything, and a "module" is just "A javascript program string, interpreted by a loader"
20:42:20  <isaacs>import/etc. is somewhat unnecessary, however, it might be nice to have explicit syntax so that loaders can see up-front what modules will be loaded.
20:42:44  <isaacs>SubStack: ie, stuff like this is very brittle today in browserify: var r = require; var f = 'fs'; var fs = r(f);
20:42:46  <SubStack>I can see the argument for an import keyword so long as import is basically just require() without parens
20:42:52  <isaacs>SubStack: we could ake that go away with syntax.
20:43:01  <SubStack>yes I agree
20:43:07  <isaacs>because then it'd be a token instead of a string
20:43:10  <SubStack>but get rid of all the cruft
20:43:11  <isaacs>so: var fs = require fs;
20:43:17  <SubStack>no no no
20:43:18  <isaacs>or var fs = import fs;
20:43:19  <SubStack>a string
20:43:21  <SubStack>use a string
20:43:23  <SubStack>paths are good
20:43:32  <isaacs>var fs = import ../fo/bar.zj
20:43:45  <SubStack>no that's bad >_<
20:43:48  <isaacs>SubStack: sure, a string, then, but with the stipulation that it must be a string literal
20:43:55  <SubStack>yes
20:43:58  <isaacs>you're right, spaces, ;s in paths, etc.
20:44:04  <SubStack>strings should look like strings
20:44:08  <isaacs>var fs = import "../foo/fuzz.js";
20:44:24  <isaacs>but `var boo = 'fs'; fs = import boo;` would throw
20:44:29  <isaacs>must be a literal
20:44:29  <SubStack>yep
20:44:32  <SubStack>that's how it works in browserify
20:44:35  <jesusabdullah>at that point you might as well make import a function
20:44:36  <isaacs>that'd solve the vast majority of issues
20:44:37  <SubStack>except with require()
20:44:46  <jesusabdullah>var fs = import("../foo/fuzz.js")
20:44:53  <isaacs>jesusabdullah: it shoudln't be a function, because it's not.
20:44:53  <jesusabdullah>at which point you might as well rename it to require
20:44:59  <isaacs>it's a token which cannot be redefined or evaluated.
20:45:02  <SubStack>jesusabdullah: a keyword has benefits that a function doesn't have
20:45:02  <isaacs>it's like 'typeof'
20:45:07  <jesusabdullah>Yeah, I suppose so
20:45:10  <isaacs>this isn't lisp.
20:45:15  <SubStack>oh but the cool thing about typeof
20:45:16  <isaacs>we can have some syntax when it's better.
20:45:20  <jesusabdullah>but it SHOULD be
20:45:21  <SubStack>is that you can actually use it with parens
20:45:21  <jesusabdullah>>:O
20:45:25  <SubStack>so it can look like a function
20:45:30  <isaacs>SubStack: sure, import can be the same
20:45:34  <SubStack>import('x') and import 'x' should both work
20:45:49  <isaacs>also, it should strip away the 'from' and * bs
20:45:57  <SubStack>isaacs: I agree
20:45:58  <isaacs>that is just unnecessary dance steps.
20:46:05  <SubStack>no module system should ever have *
20:46:13  <SubStack>plus there's already slice assignment in let
20:46:17  <SubStack>they can just use let
20:46:27  <isaacs>SubStack: right
20:46:32  <isaacs>destructuring
20:46:35  <SubStack>the reason why is because eich has this silly idea that a bunch of custom static crap is necessary
20:46:42  <SubStack>that only custom destructuring will be able to handle
20:46:46  <SubStack>I call shenanigans on that
20:46:48  <isaacs>var {foo,bar,baz} = import "foobarbaz";
20:47:03  <SubStack>yep
20:47:34  <SubStack>oh and the loader spec should just set `module` and `module.exports`
20:47:37  <SubStack>those won
20:47:41  <SubStack>even AMD uses those
20:47:59  <SubStack>in a bizarre unusable way but still
20:48:23  <SubStack>plus not making `module` a keyword prevents breaking all the value that exists already on top of module.exports from node
20:48:30  <SubStack>`import` should be the only new keyword
20:49:08  <SubStack>also `import`'s paths should be relative to the script filename of course
20:49:21  <SubStack>like how relative paths /already/ work in the browser for web pages
20:49:29  <SubStack>so it's not even like this is a new thing for browsers
20:49:37  <SubStack>but people are completely stupid about this stuff
20:49:43  <SubStack>modules absolutely need paths baked in
20:49:45  <isaacs>SubStack: well, actually, i think `import` should just trigger the loader's lookup/resolve/whatever
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20:50:04  <isaacs>SubStack: the question remains, what is the mechanism for sending modules down to teh browser?
20:50:13  <isaacs>SubStack: that could be a good use for the module keyword, actually.
20:50:23  <SubStack>which?
20:50:35  <isaacs>module '/path/to/foo/bar.js' { ... contents ... }
20:50:45  <isaacs>SubStack: becasue you want to send a single script to the client
20:50:58  <isaacs>or maybe multiple script tags, but on a cdn or something
20:51:02  <SubStack>bundles should use an api
20:51:08  <SubStack>not keywords
20:51:45  <SubStack>how is that strictly necessary when ModuleDefinerator5000.define('path/to/foo/bar.js', function () { ... }) would suffice?
20:52:10  <SubStack>the callback could even be function (module, exports) {}
20:52:12  <isaacs>SubStack: MyLoader.define('/foo/bar.js', function() {...}) is what I type into my script tag?
20:52:19  <isaacs>hrm...
20:52:29  <SubStack>then you could inspect properties from `module` like module.filename to give the filename like __filename
20:52:44  <SubStack>isaacs: no you would never type anything like that
20:52:55  <SubStack>a bundler would do that
20:52:55  <isaacs>SubStack: so, where do the guts of that file go?
20:53:21  <isaacs>SubStack: and then, we're into the realm of sourcemaps and lying stack traces (current state of the art) which is shitty
20:53:44  <SubStack>ModuleDefinerator5000() would just insert all the source mappery
20:53:49  <SubStack>it already knows what the file is
20:53:54  <SubStack>it can do all of that without intervention
20:54:04  <Raynos>https://gist.github.com/2991163
20:54:22  <Raynos>Does anyone know how to proxy a req,res pair transparently to another HTTP server if I don't know how to handle it
20:54:34  <Raynos>I feel like I can do it naively but don't know what side effects I might trip up on
20:54:42  <SubStack>isaacs: ModuleDefinerator5000 would be something the browser vendors provide
20:54:50  <SubStack>something harmony should actually be working on
20:55:05  <SubStack>not a custom thing that people write themselves
20:55:38  <isaacs>SubStack: or, i guess, that's a thing that could be handled synchronously, like documentw.rite('<script>') today
20:55:55  <Raynos>isaacs: Substack: Please summarize this conversation on es-discuss. Talking about it is cool but it definetely should reach the es-discuss ears
20:56:05  <isaacs>Raynos: yeah, working on it
20:56:06  <SubStack>fuck es-discuss
20:56:20  <SubStack>somebody should hack into everything es-discuss has ever done and delete it
20:56:34  <isaacs>SubStack: es-discuss is where v8, jscore, ie, and opera get their specs from.
20:56:42  <Raynos>SubStack: how is fuck es-discuss not equal to sticking your head in the sand
20:56:42  <isaacs>SubStack: right or wrong, it's the way to affect change.
20:56:53  <Raynos>SubStack: we need to tell them they are doing it wrong somehow
20:57:04  <SubStack>we need working implementations, not bike shedding
20:57:10  <isaacs>and, there are tons of very bright and well meaning people there, and many wackos who have no idea what they're doing
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20:57:19  <Raynos>Well just talk to the people that can make change
20:57:20  <SubStack>working implementations are the best form of argument
20:57:23  <isaacs>SubStack: agreed, but we need to tell them what we need working implemnetations OF
20:58:06  <isaacs>SubStack: so, let's propos what WE want, discuss the reasoning in a calm grownup way, and hear from the v8 and moz guys what the blockers are for them to implement it
20:58:47  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: []
20:58:51  <isaacs>SubStack: bombastic rhetoric has its place, but it is not optimal here, if your goal is a good spec rather than an entertaining fight.
20:59:19  <isaacs>(and if your goal IS an entertaining fight, then PLEASE bring this rhetoric to es-discuss!)
20:59:23  <isaacs>:D
21:00:06  <SubStack>es-discuss just seems like a waste of time
21:01:32  <SubStack>I have stuff to build, I don't want to waste time basically doing the equivalent of going to meetings.
21:02:50  <isaacs>SubStack: yes, i am similarly resentful
21:03:03  <isaacs>but i don't want a bad spec to land in the language i'm kind of stuck using.
21:03:23  <isaacs>in other news, are you interested in tacos?
21:03:40  <ik>yes
21:03:58  <isaacs>whoops, wrong room
21:04:07  <Raynos>tacos?
21:04:13  <ik>there is no wrong channel for that statement
21:04:17  <ik>question, even
21:12:03  * wiwillia2quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
21:18:22  <Raynos>how long has 0.8 been out?
21:18:24  <Raynos>minutes?
21:18:33  <jesusabdullah>hours
21:20:11  <Raynos>Oh ok
21:20:33  <jesusabdullah>SubStack: How hard is it to crack open a thinkpad? I think the main cooling fan's choking on birddust
21:20:39  <jesusabdullah>on my laptap
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21:56:04  <rowbit>SubStack, pkrumins: Encoders down:
21:58:47  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: []
22:00:19  <tanepiper>chapel: you pinged me?
22:01:48  <chapel>yeah
22:01:53  <chapel>you have hackno.de ?
22:03:09  <tanepiper>no, but i have the auth code to transfer ownership
22:03:18  <chapel>oh?
22:03:18  <tanepiper>*too much effort*
22:03:19  <chapel>confused
22:03:32  <tanepiper>none of my domain registrars will handle .de domains
22:03:38  <tanepiper>i'd have to register with a new one
22:03:40  <chapel>well I don't really want it to be honest, but was thinking it would be cool
22:03:54  <chapel>like a server setup just for people to try to break
22:03:57  <chapel>or hack
22:04:27  <tanepiper>i was thinking it would be good for a node-from-the-future blog or showcase :)
22:04:40  <tanepiper>as in "We're doing shit you're not even thinking of yet"
22:04:44  <chapel>could just post all of substacks modules on there
22:04:44  <chapel>:P
22:04:49  <tanepiper>p much
22:05:00  <chapel>that and maxogden dominictars
22:05:02  <chapel>and so on
22:05:08  <tanepiper>exactly
22:05:17  <tanepiper>#STACKVM IS THE FUTUR!!!
22:05:30  <tanepiper>Living on the edge of an infinite stack of turtles
22:05:38  <tanepiper>(That naturally go all the way down)
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22:58:47  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: []
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23:24:04  <onin23>hi guys, when i try to -> curl -u sysadmin@myemail.com:passwd -sSNT test.js testling.com/?browsers=firefox/9.0
23:24:04  <onin23>firefox/9.0:
23:24:18  * tilgovi_quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
23:24:19  <onin23>i get this message: curl: (18) transfer closed with outstanding read data remaining
23:24:37  <onin23>what does that mean?
23:26:09  <jesusabdullah>It means your transfer closed
23:26:17  <jesusabdullah>even though there was outstanding read data remaining
23:26:37  <jesusabdullah>So basically, for you, the obvious
23:26:41  <onin23>why does it happen?
23:27:06  <jesusabdullah>this message offers no clues beyond the fact that the transfer was closed, probably by someone else that wasn't you
23:27:27  <onin23>internet connection?
23:27:36  <jesusabdullah>so, like, someone at testling would need to grep their logs
23:27:36  <jesusabdullah>I mean, possibly
23:28:21  <onin23>ok, thanks jesusabdullah
23:28:30  <jesusabdullah>yw :)
23:29:14  <onin23>is there any support from testling here right now? i need feedback pls. thanks.
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23:33:59  <jesusabdullah>SubStack: ^^
23:34:17  * jesusabdullahgoes back to supporting his own users
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23:36:04  <rowbit>SubStack, pkrumins: Developers waiting in the queue for ie8 (Queue length: 1 on 1 servers. Total servers: 3)
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23:58:47  <rowbit>Hourly usage stats: []
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