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14:23:05  <owenb_>Hey ArxPoetica. I'm free to chat for a bit if you're there?
14:24:02  <ArxPoetica>oh hey owenb_
14:24:45  <ArxPoetica>paulbjensen you around too
14:24:47  <ArxPoetica>?
14:24:56  <paulbjensen>Hi Arx
14:26:28  <ArxPoetica>you guys wanna use this venue?
14:26:31  <ArxPoetica>IRC?
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14:28:21  <owenb_>Sure
14:28:27  <ArxPoetica>cool
14:28:32  <owenb_>What's up?
14:29:05  <ArxPoetica>So Paul and I were just chatting yesterday about how to lift the load off you a bit and help propel things forward with a little more momentum.
14:29:14  <ArxPoetica>I think the idea is that we're all pretty busy right now
14:29:29  <ArxPoetica>But at the same time, we don't want to see SS fail.
14:29:44  <ArxPoetica>So just wanted to chat about how to do that and which direction to take things.
14:30:06  <owenb_>Well first off, thanks :)
14:30:10  <ArxPoetica>:)
14:31:11  <ArxPoetica>Is now a good time?
14:31:52  <ArxPoetica>You've mentioned several ideas in the forums and so forth about the direction you want to take things…so there's a starting point already, obviously.
14:33:05  <owenb_>Now's a good time sure. Just need to dip in and out of here
14:33:12  <ArxPoetica>k no prob
14:33:50  <ArxPoetica>So one concern I've had is regarding documentation.
14:34:16  <owenb_>For 0.3?
14:34:30  <ArxPoetica>Well, ideally for both, but we can start w/ just 0.3
14:34:41  <ArxPoetica>I would say .3 has pretty good documentation
14:35:03  <ArxPoetica>And actually before I get too far into that, let me just quickly add before I forget
14:35:32  <ArxPoetica>Another question is about the best way to move forward with a code base that has been forked into really two seperate projects: SS 3 and 4
14:35:37  <ArxPoetica>so that would be a good thing to talk about
14:35:48  <ArxPoetica>but coming back to documentation
14:36:08  <ArxPoetica>My feeling is documentation for something as robust as a framework should really be done on a website
14:36:21  <ArxPoetica>In other words
14:36:25  <owenb_>Totally agree
14:36:30  <ArxPoetica>It's a marketing tool that could be better utilized.
14:36:32  <ArxPoetica>right
14:36:34  <ArxPoetica>okay cool
14:36:53  <ArxPoetica>So Paul and I started building that out — we just BARELY talked about it yesterday, actually
14:36:55  <owenb_>The plan was always to take the markdown files and turn them into HTML, like the node js site does
14:37:05  <ArxPoetica>perfect
14:37:16  <owenb_>But before doing that I wanted to get the design of 0.4 done
14:37:30  <ArxPoetica>Right
14:37:42  <ArxPoetica>so can I just suggest that it's killing momentum a bit?
14:37:56  <ArxPoetica>I recognize you don't want to put the cart before the horse
14:38:13  <ArxPoetica>But I think people in general don't have a solid sense on HOW to contribute
14:38:19  <ArxPoetica>me included
14:38:24  <owenb_>Sure. I totally recognise that
14:38:26  <ArxPoetica>I've sort of willed my way into that
14:38:32  <ArxPoetica>Because I care. :P
14:38:38  <owenb_>And I appreciate it :)
14:38:42  <ArxPoetica>So, for example
14:39:24  <ArxPoetica>So, maybe as part of fleshing out a better documented SS 3, we include "this is the future of SS, and here's how to contribute"
14:39:35  <ArxPoetica>as in, it needs to be part of the marketed effort
14:39:46  <ArxPoetica>I mean
14:40:11  <ArxPoetica>"here's how to maintain to 3 going forward…and here's how to contribute to the new 4..."
14:40:36  <ArxPoetica>But as concerns 3 and 4
14:40:48  <ArxPoetica>well, I guess this leads into my next question
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14:41:29  <ArxPoetica>Basically
14:41:49  <ArxPoetica>I've worked on sites that employed forked Java frameworks
14:42:00  <ArxPoetica>Tapestry — it's a bit of an obscure framework
14:42:06  <ArxPoetica>I'm only talking about it as an example
14:42:26  <ArxPoetica>Essentially (trying to put this succinctly, but finding it hard)
14:43:09  <ArxPoetica>it can become more and more difficult over time trying to maintain framework source code that has been forked
14:43:17  <ArxPoetica>I mean fork as in are different
14:43:44  <owenb_>Indeed
14:43:49  <ArxPoetica>heh
14:43:59  <ArxPoetica>so I think that would be a good thing just to be agreed about
14:44:01  <owenb_>So let me share with you my main problem....
14:44:31  <ArxPoetica>k
14:44:53  <owenb_>I basically had too many ideas about what 0.4 should be. I had imagined hugely scalable distributed systems, amazing new features, etc, etc
14:45:04  <ArxPoetica>gotcha
14:45:15  <owenb_>And now I've realised that what most people would be happy with is something that's 20% better than 0.3
14:45:23  <ArxPoetica>ah right
14:45:40  <owenb_>I tried to do too much at once in one go
14:45:48  <ArxPoetica>totally understand
14:45:51  <owenb_>Mostly as I was learning so much and wanted to put it into practice
14:46:51  <ArxPoetica>I mean, as sort of a weird reflection of what you're saying
14:47:15  <ArxPoetica>I had the thought of trying to fold SS 4 back into SS 3, only because more and more people are using SS 3
14:47:21  <ArxPoetica>but that doesn't seem practical
14:47:32  <ArxPoetica>So I hear you
14:47:56  <ArxPoetica>But I still think it's something that's sort of tripping us all up—as in "what do we do now?"
14:48:28  <ArxPoetica>Was your idea to provide an "upgrade path" from 3 to 4?
14:48:33  <ArxPoetica>when 4 is more finalized
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14:59:18  <owenb_>I think you're on the right track there
14:59:42  <owenb_>About backporting some of the 0.4 code and ideas into 0.3
14:59:53  <owenb_>Getting rid of the coffeescript files
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15:00:12  <owenb_>And generally improving the code quality
15:00:15  <ArxPoetica>bah
15:00:17  <ArxPoetica>I'm so sorry
15:00:21  <ArxPoetica>my computer died
15:00:28  <ArxPoetica>so I've been off for about 10 min
15:00:35  <ArxPoetica>let me go look up the chat archives, ha
15:01:03  <paulbjensen>I have to admit much as I love CoffeeScript I find myself doing the new stuff in JavaScript
15:01:20  <ArxPoetica>Okay
15:01:24  <ArxPoetica>all caught up, ha ha
15:01:35  <ArxPoetica>So…here's my thought on that
15:01:41  <ArxPoetica>Maybe we just KEEP SS 4
15:01:55  <ArxPoetica>(because it does kind of have a marketing buzz to it)
15:01:59  <ArxPoetica>and just do the reverse
15:02:08  <ArxPoetica>keep moving forward w/ it that is
15:02:25  <ArxPoetica>and just sort of try and keep an eye to maintaining what SS 3 already does
15:02:34  <ArxPoetica>in other words, just steer it to be a little more like SS 3
15:02:51  <ArxPoetica>just enough so that the upgrade path isn't SOOO painful
15:02:59  <ArxPoetica>that's the main thing, I would think.
15:03:03  <owenb_>Exactly
15:03:06  <ArxPoetica>Does that make sense?
15:03:09  <ArxPoetica>cool
15:03:10  <owenb_>As I said, I have grand plans
15:03:13  <owenb_>I had *
15:03:14  <ArxPoetica>lol
15:03:18  <owenb_>Too many :)
15:03:22  <ArxPoetica>I don't think all those plans need to be ditched
15:03:31  <ArxPoetica>so I had one other thing to sort of chat about
15:03:40  <owenb_>There are some good ideas in 0.4, but really people were very happy with what 0.3 did
15:03:43  <owenb_>they just needed a few more things
15:03:48  <ArxPoetica>hopefully this doesn't seem indelicate
15:03:52  <owenb_>and cleaner, more reliable code
15:04:03  <ArxPoetica>but I think we need to figure out a way to unite the SS followers a little more
15:04:06  <owenb_>Not all the mega scaling I had in mind
15:04:10  <ArxPoetica>so they feel included in the project
15:04:23  <ArxPoetica>in other words, we need to figure out a way to open it up better
15:04:40  <ArxPoetica>if that makes sense
15:04:55  <ArxPoetica>I think there's a general sense that SS 3 and 4 are just not "open" enough
15:05:04  <ArxPoetica>(that's the indelicate part, ha)
15:05:22  <ArxPoetica>so I don't necessarily have 100% solution toward that
15:05:31  <ArxPoetica>(like it would be good to say, this is a plan)
15:05:41  <ArxPoetica>but I do think PART of that is in marketing
15:06:00  <ArxPoetica>which I'm 100% committed to putting action where my words are
15:06:13  <ArxPoetica>(I'm willing to work on a website, for example)
15:06:22  <ArxPoetica>but I think another part of it
15:06:31  <ArxPoetica>could be just having a bit of a united front
15:06:32  <ArxPoetica>meaning
15:06:44  <ArxPoetica>just an understanding of "this is where we're going"
15:06:52  <ArxPoetica>so we can help everyone move that way
15:06:56  <ArxPoetica>not sure that makes sense
15:06:56  <owenb_>So Arx, I have a big announcement to make :)
15:07:00  <ArxPoetica>ha ha
15:07:34  <ArxPoetica>excited to hear :P
15:08:54  <ArxPoetica>(because I'm fully committed to helping SS move in the right direction, in other words)
15:09:13  <ArxPoetica>(I think my career might even depend on it)
15:11:31  <owenb_>As you know, I used to work with Paul for many years at AOL. He was involved with SS from the beginning and knows more about the internals of it than anyone else. I've just been chatting with him today, and finally done something I've been thinking about for a while now - handing SocketStream over to him.
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15:13:11  <owenb_>It makes sense as his future plans involve using SS with Dashku whereas my startup idea (that I've been working on for the last few months) needs much greater scale than Node.js can provide alone. Hence I'm spending time with other technologies these days.
15:14:56  <owenb_>I'm not going anywhere and am happy to provide advise and be a sounding board, but the project deserves someone who has the time and inclination to take it forward - look after existing users, and foster a community to take it forward. Paul can do that, and will do it well.
15:15:17  <ArxPoetica>Awesome.
15:15:23  <ArxPoetica>That's a big thing!
15:15:27  <ArxPoetica>I'll help him hoist that load.
15:15:37  <owenb_>I was hoping you would. Thank you so much :)
15:16:09  <ArxPoetica>So—not to cut it short—but I think this addresses everything I was hoping to discuss, ha ha.
15:16:25  <owenb_>Great :)
15:16:35  <ArxPoetica>I do hope you'll stick around though and keep a continued interest...
15:16:41  <ArxPoetica>It is, after all, still your "baby"
15:16:54  <ArxPoetica>I'll be interested in your startup
15:16:55  <ArxPoetica>too
15:16:58  <owenb_>Of course. I see Paul in London quite often and hope that will continue
15:17:02  <ArxPoetica>Is this something you're going alone?
15:17:04  <owenb_>Cheers :)
15:17:09  <ArxPoetica>thx
15:17:13  <owenb_>For now yes
15:17:23  <ArxPoetica>(Hope to someday meet you two in London, btw.)
15:17:29  <ArxPoetica>*someday I mean
15:17:32  <owenb_>That would be great
15:17:39  <ArxPoetica>Well, that's great
15:17:47  <ArxPoetica>is it total "mums the word" right now?
15:18:14  <owenb_>Hmm maybe just now. I'll write a post for google groups tonight
15:18:22  <ArxPoetica>Sounds great.
15:18:26  <ArxPoetica>Thanks Owen!
15:18:31  <ArxPoetica>For what its worth
15:18:42  <ArxPoetica>I know you always said SS 3 wasn't "production ready"
15:18:47  <ArxPoetica>But your code has been EXCELLENT.
15:18:53  <owenb_>Remind me of your site again?
15:18:55  <ArxPoetica>And I've had very few issues.
15:19:05  <ArxPoetica>Hollow? The online documentary?
15:19:07  <owenb_>I know I've seen it before
15:19:09  <owenb_>yes
15:19:21  <owenb_>was trying to find the URL the other day
15:19:21  <ArxPoetica>http://hollowdocumentary.com/
15:19:30  <owenb_>that's it :)
15:19:35  <owenb_>it's really great!
15:21:54  <ArxPoetica>Thanks. It was a great opportunity.
15:24:08  <owenb_>:)
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