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17:48:53  <dshaw_>#breaking Due to intermittent power outage affecting @nodeup producer @ffloaat, we might have some delays or technical issues. Stay tuned.
17:48:54  * supernautjoined
17:49:11  <eliofilipe>hi guys
17:49:22  * listochkinjoined
17:49:34  <supernaut>hello
17:49:51  <dshaw_>cjm appears to be back online, but it might get sketchy
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17:51:23  <supernaut>are you streaming it live?
17:52:14  <mattkrea>not yet: http://mixlr.com/nodeup/
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18:02:47  <kenperkins>i just want lunch :P
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18:08:28  <dshaw_>We had to pause the live show due to crazy echo.
18:09:23  * porkupinejoined
18:09:54  <dshaw_>restarting
18:10:25  * graeme_fjoined
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18:11:16  <porkupine>the elusive, frustrating echo :)
18:11:18  <dylang>somebody have the web page open?
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18:11:21  <kenperkins>dshaw_: sounds great on the receiving end so far
18:11:24  <dshaw_>:)
18:11:35  <cjm>sorry all :) we will be live soon
18:11:35  <dshaw_>shut it down again
18:11:43  * mihkel_changed nick to Guest18745
18:11:51  <prestonnnn_>no worries.. looking forward to the cast
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18:11:55  <porkupine>+1
18:12:01  <thatguycraig>w00t
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18:12:36  <thatguycraig>I'm a complete API newb. I need heeelp. Buffering for me after they had some feedback issues… anyone else listening currently?
18:13:14  <jos_e>buffering here too thatguycraig
18:13:19  <listochkin>All NodeUp shows that had tech issues ended up being very good. No worries :)
18:13:20  * owen1joined
18:13:24  <owen1>nodeup!
18:13:44  <owen1>yeah!
18:13:46  <kenperkins>44.3!
18:13:47  <jos_e>back now
18:13:50  <owen1>love u guys
18:14:08  <owen1>can someone send links to new people's github?
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18:14:50  <owen1>https://github.com/mcavage
18:14:57  <owen1>https://github.com/mcavage/node-restify
18:15:09  * dguttmanjoined
18:15:57  <owen1>can someone send link to the diy guy?
18:16:28  <thatguycraig>Guys, if I'm completely new to even WORKING with APIs, nevermind making them… anyone suggest some sites for me to learn?
18:16:35  <thatguycraig>I can never find good ones
18:16:47  <owen1>dnode!
18:17:00  <prestonnnn_>lol substack: i dunno i build lots of modules
18:17:04  <owen1>thatguycraig: https://github.com/isaacs/npm-www
18:17:11  <owen1>i am learning from the npm website
18:17:58  * jarofghostsjoined
18:18:17  <thatguycraig>owen1: is that to make your own or work with an existing?
18:18:18  * jarofghostspart
18:18:32  <owen1>thatguycraig: to build websites/api
18:18:32  <thatguycraig>I'm so new I haven't even worked with an API yet, dying too!
18:18:53  <thatguycraig>Ahh, yeah see I need to know how the hell to even begin working with them
18:19:02  <owen1>why does restify uses middleware/connect? is it possible to write framework without it?
18:19:08  <kenperkins>thatguycraig: lots of people just start with express
18:19:12  <porkupine>thatguycraig: I'd recommend working with someone else's API before writing your own. For example, Twitter or Facebook. los of examples.
18:19:17  * Nekit1234007part
18:19:18  <kenperkins>thatguycraig http://shapeshed.com/creating-a-basic-site-with-node-and-express/
18:19:20  <cjm>thatguycraig: i will try to have everyone post relevant links in here
18:19:46  <owen1>readme driven development
18:19:52  <thatguycraig>Thanks all! Keep em coming, I bookmark everything I can't get to now for later review. Thank you, seriously...
18:20:04  <thatguycraig>I know the power of APIs and I NEED to get working with them.
18:20:17  <owen1>kenperkins: too bad there are no good resources for building website/api without express
18:20:22  <kenperkins>owen1: true.
18:20:40  <devoidfury>I'm working on a development tool for express, and working in stuff that's useful for APIs inside, any ideas for info that's useful for devel that could be captured?
18:20:51  <owen1>kenperkins: thing about that. u gave the guy a framework with templates and all kind of stuff. he might just need api.
18:21:01  <kenperkins>I know :S
18:21:12  <kenperkins>I didn't say express was awesome, i just said it's where a lot of people start
18:21:24  <owen1>kenperkins: yeah. it's just sad (:
18:21:34  <kenperkins>sad developers are sad
18:21:42  <owen1>that people are shy away from createServer
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18:23:09  <bear>just the fact he answered "i'm not a REST pendantic but I'm super pendantic about HTTP" answers everything you need to know about REST IMO
18:23:16  <kenperkins>heh
18:24:26  <thatguycraig>Are there API types that currently work with Google's new SPDY?
18:25:17  <thatguycraig>When things go silent after I ask a tech question I'm unsure of… I feel real dumb. lol
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18:26:02  <owen1>thatguycraig: don't worry about that. i have no idea what to answer u.
18:26:09  <owen1>i don't even understand the question (:
18:26:26  <kenperkins>don't worry about asking stupid questions. You can't learn if you're afraid to ask.
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18:26:53  <owen1>http://quoderat.megginson.com/2011/11/17/post-put-idempotence-and-self-identification/
18:28:14  <thatguycraig>owen1: Google created SPDY, check it out. Facebook rewrote their mobile app with it (I believe). If it's no on SPDY yet, it is in development - I do know that.
18:28:31  <thatguycraig>http://www.chromium.org/spdy/spdy-whitepaper
18:28:52  <thatguycraig>http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2013/03/facebook-spdy/
18:28:53  <owen1>thatguycraig: yeah. i just didn't understand the first part of your question
18:29:08  <thatguycraig>Oh, by "API types" I meant REST, SOAP
18:29:12  <thatguycraig>Those are all I know
18:29:24  <thatguycraig>I thought they were different types of APIs.
18:29:31  <thatguycraig>How they handle things, etc
18:29:33  <owen1>oh. i have no idea
18:29:42  <owen1>i assume not. but i might be wrong
18:30:25  <twilightfeel>SPDY just wraps HTTP, what are you mean under "work with SPDY"
18:30:27  <dshaw_>http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-cavage-http-signatures-00
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18:32:04  <twilightfeel>If server and client supports SPDY you can use any kind of REST or SOAP API inside
18:32:43  <thatguycraig>Ahh ok
18:32:52  <thatguycraig>Thanks @twilightfeel
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18:34:10  <owen1>please do
18:34:18  <twilightfeel>@thatguycraig my pleasure
18:35:13  <kenperkins>ok serious question: Jay-Sahn or Jay-son
18:35:16  <mcavage>re: http signature (for the joyent cloudapi):
18:35:22  <mcavage>function us-east-1() {
18:35:22  <mcavage> local now=`date -u "+%a, %d %h %Y %H:%M:%S GMT"` ;
18:35:22  <mcavage> local signature=`echo ${now} | tr -d '\n' | openssl dgst -sha256 -sign ~/.ssh/id_rsa | openssl enc -e -a | tr -d '\n'` ;
18:35:23  <mcavage> local url="https://us-east-1.api.joyentcloud.com"
18:35:25  <mcavage> curl -k -is -H "Accept: application/json" -H "x-api-version: ~6.5" \
18:35:27  <mcavage> -H "Date: ${now}" \
18:35:29  <mcavage> -H "Authorization: Signature keyId=\"/mark.cavage/keys/id_rsa\",algorithm=\"rsa-sha256\" ${signature}" \
18:35:31  <mcavage> --url ${url}$@ ;
18:35:33  <mcavage> echo "";
18:35:35  <mcavage>}
18:35:38  <substack>nice!
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18:37:12  <Raynos>o/
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18:37:16  <mcavage>use like: us-east-1 /my/machines -H ... -X PUT etc
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18:39:52  <owen1>mcavage: that's how u make http calls in your apps? why not the built-in http library?
18:40:04  <mcavage>no that's for humans on the command line
18:40:08  <mcavage>to play with
18:40:33  <owen1>mcavage: so it's a bash script in js, right?
18:40:33  <mcavage>instead of curl -u user:secret https://.../foo/bar
18:40:40  <mcavage>no - it's a bash function.
18:40:45  <owen1>oh
18:41:23  <bear>http://conversat.io
18:41:32  <owen1>i didn't know u can call a function from the terminal like that.
18:41:50  <mcavage>just put that in ~/.bashr
18:41:51  <bear>http://simplewebrtc.com
18:41:56  <mcavage>~/.bashrc
18:42:04  <mcavage>then you can just do us-east-1 /my/machines
18:42:06  <cjm>https://andbang.com/
18:42:19  <cjm>http://andyet.com/
18:42:27  <bear>http://liftsecurity.io
18:42:31  <bear>http://nodesecurity.io
18:43:57  <owen1>http://www.reddit.com/r/node/comments/1dyx79/i_created_a_curl_wrapper_for_nodejs/
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18:45:35  <owen1>what packages are they talking about?
18:45:41  <owen1>https://github.com/dgraham/json-stream ?
18:45:46  <owen1>or https://github.com/dominictarr/JSONStream
18:46:06  <substack>https://npmjs.org/package/stream-serializer
18:46:12  <owen1>oh. thanks
18:46:13  <substack>https://npmjs.org/package/JSONStream
18:46:34  <thisandagain>underlying parser: https://github.com/creationix/jsonparse
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18:50:35  <arnorhs>yo
18:51:15  <dshaw_>https://npmjs.org/package/JSV
18:51:58  <jaridmargolin>let us know when
18:53:16  <owen1>do people write a complete web apps using web sockets instead of ajax or regular request/response?
18:53:35  <bear>andbang is websocket at it's core
18:53:53  <bear>AndBang I should have said
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18:58:27  <owen1>https://github.com/dominictarr/mux-demux
18:58:41  <substack>also https://npmjs.org/package/shoe
19:00:36  <kenperkins>does anyone have an elegant pattern for validating properties on input object (options) and early return if not found
19:00:58  <owen1>so according to substack : streams > event emitter
19:01:02  <dshaw_>kenperkins: JSV?
19:01:17  * user123458787joined
19:01:22  <kenperkins>JSV? help a brother out
19:01:31  <kenperkins>is that a package? :D
19:01:36  <substack>event emitters are good, but streams are a better basis for a transport api
19:01:56  * user123458787changed nick to azer123
19:02:18  <kenperkins>dshaw_: got it, thanks, looking
19:02:46  <azer123>substack: wouldn't pubsub make it simpler?
19:02:59  <substack>that's the same as an event emitter
19:03:01  <azer123>I mean something like this; http://github.com/azer/pubsub by pubsub
19:04:02  <kenperkins>as little as possible. I hate non json
19:04:11  <owen1>ahah
19:04:21  <owen1>sometimes u have no choice
19:04:40  * graeme_fjoined
19:05:35  <kenperkins>owen1: not arguing, but it's so painful
19:06:45  <owen1>why is restify based on connect?
19:06:57  * no9joined
19:07:03  <owen1>is there a good reason to use connect in frameworks?
19:07:30  * no9quit (Client Quit)
19:08:03  <jaridmargolin>anybody using Hapi?
19:08:05  <owen1>can u guys talk about why connect?
19:08:13  <jaridmargolin>experience Hapi vs Restify
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19:12:17  <substack>pass in req and/or res yourself manually
19:12:21  * graeme_fquit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
19:12:25  <substack>and/or define a .test(req.url) function
19:12:37  <arnorhs>i love it when people hate on java, gives me a nice tingly feeling
19:12:47  <mikeal>i feel bad
19:12:52  <mikeal>like we're making fun of the slow kid in class
19:13:01  <arnorhs>true :/
19:13:09  <mikeal>it's not Java's fault
19:13:42  <mikeal>they were just listening to all the wrong people and didn't understand that adding syntax and features makes you lose simplicity as much as you gain fancyness
19:13:43  <arnorhs>I don't know.. i see it as like a tiny bit of revenge for wasted time
19:13:54  <arnorhs>mikeal: also true
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19:17:27  <owen1>https://github.com/substack/substack.net
19:17:49  <mikeal>mapleTree plug :)
19:18:02  <owen1>good example for using node without frameworks
19:18:44  <owen1>https://github.com/dominictarr/event-stream
19:18:55  <substack>(req, res) .test() example: https://github.com/substack/glog#blogreq-res
19:19:04  <thisandagain>https://github.com/dominictarr/event-stream
19:19:28  <mikeal>two words people never need: middleware and framework :)
19:19:31  <dshaw_>https://npmjs.org/package/pipeline
19:19:42  * mattkreajoined
19:19:42  <dshaw_>mikeal: :-P
19:20:00  <substack>oh cool it was split out
19:20:09  <substack>does event-stream even have anything that hasn't been split out?
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19:20:26  <owen1>tape
19:20:30  <owen1>tape all the time
19:20:44  <owen1>https://github.com/substack/tape
19:20:48  <mikeal>tape is broken on 0.10
19:20:50  <mikeal>so.......
19:20:54  <substack>mikeal: it was fixed
19:20:55  <owen1>oh
19:20:58  <owen1>(:
19:21:00  <mikeal>good news :)
19:21:21  <mikeal>please, someone mention, that mikeal says "fuck test frameworks"
19:21:25  <mikeal>:P
19:21:39  <owen1>please say it!
19:21:44  * jos_epart
19:21:49  <mikeal>test frameworks are entirely unnecessary
19:22:01  <mikeal>and as soon as you go down the framework path you're stuck forever
19:22:18  <bear>mocking is useful only when you don't control a remote api that is core to your product
19:22:32  <mikeal>yeah, i've done that, but it's a mock REST server
19:22:45  <mikeal>its not a mock object that looks like a client to a remote server
19:22:47  <substack>test libraries can be handy for outputting format that is easy to parse like TAP
19:22:56  <substack>and for catching certain classes of false positives
19:22:57  <mikeal>bah!
19:23:11  <substack>tap/tape basically
19:23:13  <mikeal>exceptions and printing
19:23:21  <mikeal>and domains
19:23:23  <substack>exceptions are really bad for browser tests
19:23:27  <substack>browsers don't have domains
19:23:34  <mikeal>exceptions are great in browser tests
19:23:44  <mikeal>they show you what actually failed :)
19:23:46  <substack>it's hard to marshall exceptions back
19:23:52  <mikeal>you get an exception you can pull up in the debugger
19:23:56  <mikeal>back to where?
19:24:05  <substack>to a server
19:24:14  <mikeal>you know that the test failed
19:24:21  <mikeal>you can run it locally to debug that actual exception
19:24:21  <substack>because exceptions stop the execution context and it's hard to recover it reliably
19:24:28  <substack>no you don't if the xhr doesn't get sent!
19:24:41  <mikeal>window.onError = function () { /* teardown my whole framework and fail it */ }
19:24:44  <kenperkins>damnit
19:24:48  <kenperkins>i missed that part about travis pro
19:24:49  <substack>that doesn't work reliably
19:24:50  <kenperkins>can someone sumarize
19:24:54  <mikeal>its been working for me
19:25:18  <owen1>https://github.com/getprove/node-bootstrap-readme-docs
19:25:26  <substack>onerror has different method signatures in different browsers
19:25:39  <substack>it's really difficult to recover the error correctly
19:25:41  <mikeal>someone has to have written a library for that :)
19:25:57  <substack>the problem is that many browsers don't even have enough information
19:25:58  <dshaw_>node-wsdl
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19:26:03  <mikeal>i don't care about recovering the execution stack because i have to debug it locally to figure it out anyway
19:26:05  <substack>firefox/chrome/safari all do onerror differently
19:26:24  <mikeal>my code seems to be working in firefox and chrome, don't know about safari or ie tho
19:26:35  <mikeal>oh wait, it works on mobile safari, i know that
19:26:53  <mikeal>and i attach the remote debugger to see the actual exceptions
19:27:37  <substack>ANYWAYS
19:27:42  <thisandagain>http://friends.diy.org/
19:28:14  <mcavage>https://github.com/trentm/restdown
19:28:17  <mikeal>someone needs to make a loud fart noise with your mouth when people say "python script"
19:30:59  <substack>get your questions ready to ask, channel
19:31:22  <dshaw_>^
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19:33:10  <facultymatt>check out https://developers.helloreverb.com/swagger/ for clicky documentation... also great for keeping documentation inline with code... thus preventing out dated docs.
19:33:17  <mikeal>substack, make sure you talk about how you feel about logging in modules
19:33:24  <bear>http://blog.nodejs.org/2012/03/28/service-logging-in-json-with-bunyan/
19:33:35  <bear>https://github.com/mcavage/node-bunyan-syslog
19:34:08  <arnorhs>what is the difference between that and https://github.com/trentm/node-bunyan ?
19:34:29  <arnorhs>oh syslog stream, got it
19:34:39  <substack>I use console.log()
19:34:55  <porkupine>What is dtrace for in the context of APIs? Is it used to output system stats of the server running the API?
19:35:02  <kenperkins>I make heavy use of Winston and it's transports
19:35:09  <arnorhs>I use alert() aliased to console.log
19:35:16  <kenperkins>papretrail/loggly/graylog
19:35:16  <substack>and ploy pipes std{out,err} into https://github.com/substack/logdir
19:35:43  <bear>what was the module he mentioned for live dtrace exception logging
19:36:21  <kenperkins>really worth mentioning: https://github.com/flatiron/winston
19:39:18  <mikeal>Streams :)
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19:40:42  <mikeal>http agent is getting fixed in 0.12 :)
19:40:52  <mikeal>please remind everyone that this *is* getting fixed
19:41:09  <kenperkins>mikeal: was it agreed that connections would be kept open longer than if the queue is empty?
19:41:10  <mikeal>should also mention poolee
19:41:40  <mikeal>kenperkins: in 0.10 we got socket.unref() so now we can keep sockets open that aren't in use and they won't keep core open
19:41:49  <mikeal>so we can much more safely keep them open
19:41:52  <kenperkins>didn't realize that
19:41:57  <mikeal>substack: TO THE SAME HOST/PORT
19:42:17  <mikeal>you're making it sound like node.js has a client concurrency limit of 5 TOTAL
19:42:38  <substack>whatever
19:42:40  <substack>it's so bad
19:42:46  <mikeal>there's a huge difference
19:42:50  <substack>not really
19:42:51  <mikeal>between what you said and what actually happens
19:43:01  <mikeal>it's *to the same host*
19:43:04  <kenperkins>Yes it does
19:43:11  <kenperkins>it does if you have more than 1 connection enqueued
19:43:11  <mikeal>keep-alive works by default
19:43:18  <mikeal>you're turning it off
19:43:24  <substack>I don't think you realize how bad this issue is.
19:43:25  <mikeal>when you increase maxSockets :)
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19:43:40  <mikeal>substack: i know exactly how bad it is, i've hit it, i turn it off in production :)
19:43:41  <substack>your production app will just *stop working*
19:43:49  <substack>why was that ever turned on ever
19:44:05  <kenperkins>https://github.com/joyent/node/issues/4362 <-- please read that
19:44:05  <mikeal>because Ryan added keep-alive and pooling that was straight up broken
19:44:18  <kenperkins>sorry here
19:44:20  <kenperkins>https://github.com/joyent/node/issues/4362#issuecomment-11067684
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19:44:45  <mikeal>so we fixed it
19:44:56  <kenperkins>unref you mean
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19:45:06  <bear>what was the name of the module that was mentioned for getting stacktraces into logs (or console) when an exception happens?
19:45:09  <mikeal>but we couldn't keep sockets open
19:45:13  <mikeal>because they would keep the process open
19:45:33  <mikeal>so i wrote a system that would keep a set number of them open *if there are pending requests in the pool"
19:45:44  <mikeal>so, when you exhaust the pool limit they are more efficient
19:45:54  <mikeal>5 was chosen because its the same host limit many servers enforce
19:45:57  <mikeal>and is also the default in the browser
19:46:00  <mikeal>or was
19:46:02  <mikeal>its not any more
19:46:09  <mcavage>bear: I was just saying that we use bunyan + restify events. there's an example on the bunyan page about using a "ringbuffer" so that you can dump more verbosely on error
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19:46:17  <mcavage>that's also on the restify exports.
19:46:19  <kenperkins>mikeal: I'm not arguing with you btw :)
19:46:20  <bear>mcavage - thanks
19:46:35  <substack>just turn http pooling completely off
19:46:40  <substack>it's so broken
19:46:57  <mikeal>until 0.12, turn pooling off
19:47:07  <mikeal>or, alternatively, use forever-agent with request
19:47:17  <mikeal>which will work a lot more like the agent in 0.12
19:47:27  <kenperkins>SHOULD WE GO TO EU?
19:47:47  <kenperkins>any reason to do both nodeconf and nodeconfeu?
19:47:54  <mikeal>yes :)
19:47:54  <kenperkins>also, anyone going to fluentconf
19:47:59  <mikeal>they will be entirely different conferences
19:48:16  <kenperkins>who's not hiring would be more interesting :)
19:48:18  <mikeal>fluentconf would be an absolute waste of time unless you're a Java Project Manager
19:48:28  <kenperkins>lol
19:49:14  <mikeal>kenperkins: .eu will be very different
19:49:22  <mikeal>great, but totally different
19:49:33  <kenperkins>mikeal: not sure I can swing both, so many things to go to
19:49:40  <mikeal>NodeConf US is at a summer camp and is "session" which are like micro-trainings
19:50:07  <kenperkins>yea, I'm already committed to nodeconf, recall our brief chat about sponsorship?
19:50:09  <mikeal>at .eu, a Castle will be involved, and will have more traditional "talks"
19:50:16  <mikeal>i think so :)
19:50:26  <kenperkins>yea yea
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19:52:25  <mikeal>also, you don't need a new module to turn pooling off
19:52:29  <mikeal>you need one line of code :)
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19:55:23  <arnorhs>great show. thanks guys
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