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16:12:24  <swills>ah, MANATEE-188 landed I see
16:13:44  <nfitch>swills: Yes. The migration guide is here: https://github.com/joyent/manatee/blob/master/docs/migrate-1-to-2.md
16:15:14  <nfitch>If you have any questions, please ping us here!
16:18:03  <nahamu>does Manatee 2.0 do fewer flips?
16:21:16  <nfitch>nahamu: That'd be pretty hard to quantify…. but, yes, it *should* do fewer flips.
16:21:37  <nahamu>looking at the migration guide it would seem like that was the goal of the change
16:21:41  <nahamu>just making sure I understand.
16:22:05  <nfitch>The main difference is that Manatee 1.0 uses sequential ephemeral nodes to determine the topology, so any process restarts cause the topology to change.
16:22:47  <nfitch>Manatee 2.0 uses a persisted zk node with a json object representing the topology which only the primary or the sync can change.
16:22:47  <nahamu>ah, ephemeral vs persistent node would probably make a big difference too. I don't think I caught that from the write-up.
16:23:22  <nfitch>Well… the goal of the change was to avoid cluster state transitions that would cause transaction log divergence.
16:23:30  <nfitch>(Postgres xlogs, that is)
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16:23:56  <nfitch>It just so happens that the design also causes fewer flips :)
16:25:28  <nfitch>Manatee 1.0 used the history (also persisted zk nodes) to try and avoid flips that would cause xlog divergence.
16:25:52  <nfitch>The whole divergence thing is explained here: https://github.com/joyent/manatee/blob/master/docs/xlog-diverge.md
16:26:33  <nahamu>ah, cool. thanks!
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16:28:19  <nfitch>n/p!
16:29:40  <nahamu>All Joyent software that runs on top of Manatee goes through some software layer that's aware of the cluster topology, right?
16:31:15  <nahamu>(It would be cool if there were a piece of software that could present what looks like a normal Postgres server whose IP doesn't change to legacy applications but that sends everything into the Manatee cluster and as gracefully as possible handles flips...)
16:31:37  <nfitch>Ya, node-manatee: https://github.com/joyent/node-manatee which is hooked into node-moray: https://github.com/joyent/node-moray
16:32:07  <nfitch>Node-manatee watched the ZK state object for changes.
16:32:20  <nfitch>*watches
16:34:54  <swills>nfitch: i am setting up fresh actually
16:35:39  <nfitch>Awwww…. but I tried to make the migration soooo easy! ;)
16:36:26  <swills>hehe
16:36:36  <swills>nahamu: yes, i've been thinking about that too, would be nice
16:40:48  <nahamu>It just occurred to me that https://github.com/postwait/vippy and https://github.com/joyent/node-manatee could be interesting...
16:41:12  <nahamu>replace the gossip protocol bits with the stuff that watches ZK and then move the floating IP...
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16:41:51  <nahamu>the behavior for established connections might be bad, but at least new connections would probably do the right thing...
16:42:38  <nahamu>actually, you'd just make the Manatee master take over the floating IP...
16:42:47  <nahamu>no need for complicated other stuff...
16:43:01  <nahamu>I'm sure that would break in horrible ways that I've yet to imagine.
16:44:51  <nahamu>but https://github.com/joyent/node-manatee might have almost everything needed for an outside zone to present the legacy interface.
16:46:51  <nfitch>node-manatee is dead simple. It watches for cluster state changes and emits a set of postgres urls when it changes.
16:47:03  <nfitch>It being the topology.
16:48:52  <nahamu>Gotta get someone here at work to set up Manatee.
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16:49:33  <nahamu>(or get Joyent to sell Manatee clusters in the JPC... wink wink nudge nudge...)
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