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19:05:55  <creationix>brendaneich, welcome!
19:06:10  <brendaneich>hi
19:06:22  <creationix>sorry there isn't much to show here yet, but it's a start
19:30:11  <isaacs>creationix: is luvmonkey's goal to be portable with node.js?
19:30:20  <isaacs>(just curious)
19:30:43  <isaacs>obviously any v8 or sm specific features wouldn't be
19:31:17  <isaacs>but i think node's lib folder is pretty free of v8-isms. it'd be rad if npm could run on luvmonkey
19:39:32  <creationix>isaacs, yes
19:39:54  <creationix>isaacs, initially that was beyond the scope of luvmonkey, but after discussing it a while at c9, that's the new goal
19:40:11  <creationix>luvit can't be compatable with node since it's a different language
19:40:16  <creationix>but there is no readon luvmonkey isn't
19:40:19  <creationix>*reason
19:40:34  <creationix>now I just need to find time to work on it
19:47:08  <creationix>initially the plan was for luvmonkey to be bare-cones libuv-sm bindings and then another project would implement the full node js api on top of that. But bnoordhuis and piscisaureus convinced me it should be just one project
19:47:34  <creationix>the plan was always for there to exists a node portable runtime
19:48:53  <piscisaureus>Yeah well it would be fine with me if it starts as a barebones uv binding
19:49:06  <piscisaureus>but after that it should not be so hard to implement the net.js stuff on top of it
19:49:09  <creationix>right
19:49:10  <piscisaureus>so I'd say we should do it
19:49:26  <piscisaureus>unfortunately we are all very busy atm
19:49:39  <piscisaureus>creationix is doing c9 stuff. Ben and I have a node to ship.
19:49:58  <piscisaureus>or isaacs will fire us (muhahaha)
19:50:31  <creationix>which node? 0.8.0?
19:50:55  <piscisaureus>sure
19:51:51  <creationix>I would love a gecko equivalent to http://code.google.com/p/chromiumembedded/
19:52:11  <creationix>the intel guys are working on adding cef bindings to node
19:52:24  <creationix>something like that for luvmonkey would be awesome
19:52:25  <piscisaureus>why are the intel guys so busy with node?
19:52:37  <creationix>they app platform is my guess
19:52:39  <creationix>*their
19:52:52  <piscisaureus>ah
19:53:00  <creationix>AppUp
19:53:11  <piscisaureus>it's funny that some moz guys built a qt binding for node
19:53:40  <creationix>qt is pretty easy to embed once you learn it, gecko not so much
19:54:03  <bnoordhuis>qt has a weird build system i could never get the hang of though
19:55:01  <creationix>qmake?
19:55:46  <bnoordhuis>yeah
20:07:12  <piscisaureus>The question is how we can attract more contributors as fast as possible
20:07:41  <piscisaureus>It'd be nice to try out smjs's generators and such
20:09:15  <creationix>I'll bet we can get bruno to port streamline to it to test out generators
20:09:41  <creationix>I don't think streamline uses anything node specific since it runs in the browser too
20:10:07  <creationix>then we can take the streamline node examples and implement enough node api to make them work
20:10:26  <creationix>or if we don't want to promote/rely on streamline, we can do vanilla generators
20:10:44  <creationix>have a http server that does some file or database I/O using generators to avoid callbacks
20:12:07  <creationix>smjs has lots of neat js features from js 1.8.5
20:13:12  <creationix>there is even E4X
20:13:18  <creationix>though I don't recommend promoting that
20:13:40  <creationix>https://developer.mozilla.org/en/New_in_JavaScript_1.6
20:13:47  <creationix> https://developer.mozilla.org/en/New_in_JavaScript_1.7
20:13:52  <isaacs>creationix: i consider *node* was just a bare-bones v8-uv binding.
20:13:53  <creationix>https://developer.mozilla.org/en/New_in_JavaScript_1.8
20:13:58  <isaacs>creationix: s/was//g
20:14:08  <creationix>isaacs, right
20:14:09  <isaacs>creationix: of course, node has a bit of cruft, but some of that is important.
20:14:16  <creationix>it is more than it used to be
20:14:37  <isaacs>creationix: 0.9 will polish a lot of the APIs further, and maybe by 1.0, node and luvmonkey can be API compatible.
20:14:45  <isaacs>at least, in the JS layer
20:14:50  <creationix>isaacs, that would be cool
20:14:55  <isaacs>i mean, even, "use exactly the same lib folder and npm works on both"
20:15:03  <isaacs>just src/ would be different of course
20:15:09  <creationix>hey if you're willing to share that folder I'm cool with that
20:15:15  <creationix>like physically link it somehow
20:15:18  <creationix>submodules or something
20:15:37  <creationix>I just thought that joyent/node was against using submodules
20:16:16  <creationix>I decided to use submodules with luvmonkey, candor.io, and luvit since they share so much
20:16:31  <creationix>I just have a make target to create a bundled .tar.gz source file for people not using git
20:18:52  <creationix>isaacs, or we could integrate even tighter and have two src folders, one with smjs bindings and one with v8 bindings and have both smjs and v8 in deps
20:18:56  <creationix>but that's probably overkill
20:19:34  <creationix>what I would like is a common shared submodule for node's lib folder
20:19:47  <creationix>we already share libuc http_parser and everything else
20:19:51  <creationix>*libuv
20:20:35  <isaacs>right
20:22:49  <creationix>how about we create a new repo, call it node-lib or something
20:23:00  <creationix>joyent/node can staticly include it like it does for libuv
20:23:06  <creationix>and I can submodule it like I do for everything else
20:23:51  <creationix>the other option is I just manually copy over changes from joyent/node's lib folder from time to time
20:24:09  <creationix>I'm sure git can tell me the changelog for a folder since a specific revision right?
20:24:20  <creationix>I just don't get any of the history that way
20:25:29  <piscisaureus>isaacs: creationix: I think that some parts can be api-compatible
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20:25:51  <piscisaureus>isaacs: creationix: but some stuff in node is just not as nice as it should be. If I had to do it all over, I would make different mistakes :-)
20:26:35  <isaacs>piscisaureus: yes, i agree.
20:26:41  <isaacs>piscisaureus: this is a long-term goal
20:26:51  <isaacs>piscisaureus: like, a post-1.0 goal.
20:27:07  <isaacs>creationix: they can stay as two projects.
20:27:10  <piscisaureus>isaacs: but there is a lot of stuff that is (mostly) js-only so we could share it without worries
20:27:19  <isaacs>creationix: like python and jython or whatever.
20:27:32  <piscisaureus>like path, querystring, url, module loader etc
20:27:34  <isaacs>piscisaureus: even the js-only stuff does a lot of process.binding(...)
20:27:34  <creationix>maybe a shared test suite then
20:27:44  <isaacs>piscisaureus: i'm not kidding when i say "same exact lib folder"
20:28:04  <creationix>well, process.binding isn't hard to implement
20:28:13  <creationix>it's just a question if we want to keep that or change it
20:29:15  <isaacs>creationix: yeah, and it's a question of matching all the APIs that that exposes.
20:29:19  <isaacs>pipe_wrap etc
20:29:56  <creationix>so the goal is to be compatable with node 1.0.0 whatever that ends up being
20:30:07  <creationix>a secondary goal is to share all of the lib folder if feasable
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20:30:55  <creationix>I think a good milestone would be running an express app out of the box
20:31:17  <creationix>but before we get there I need to have a non-leaky tcp echo server and non-segfault http-simple
20:31:21  <isaacs>creationix: a good milestone would be that npm can install express, also.
20:31:26  <isaacs>creationix: well, sure :)
20:31:28  <isaacs>that, too.
20:31:31  <creationix>isaacs, yeah, that will test the fs layer for sure
20:31:54  <creationix>ok, so we can just use popular software as our compat test suite for now
20:32:04  <creationix>once it passes many things plan something more rigorous
20:32:33  <creationix>the various ruby implementations have a standard ruby lang spec test suite
20:32:42  <creationix>even the official cruby doesn't pass them all
20:32:56  <creationix>not sure we want to go that far, but I like the idea
20:33:18  <isaacs>creationix: we should also share the test suite.
20:33:33  <isaacs>creationix: if luvmonkey can pass all of node's tests, then you've won.
20:33:50  <creationix>true, but they test more than the public API
20:34:03  <creationix>but I guess they only test the JS interface
20:34:14  <isaacs>creationix: they should only test supported apis
20:34:20  <creationix>ok, then it's fine
20:34:21  <isaacs>if there's no test for it, it's by definition not supported.
20:34:35  <isaacs>but sometimes they do some questionable things ;)
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20:37:33  <creationix>I see JS 1.8.5 is mainly moving back towards ES5
20:37:43  <creationix>https://developer.mozilla.org/en/New_in_JavaScript_1.8.5
20:38:02  <creationix>and ES6 has a lot of the stuff that was added in 1.7 and 1.8
20:40:54  <creationix>so if we promote JS specific features (vs ES) we should focus on the parts that will eventualyl be in ES6
20:41:20  <creationix>because V8 will eventually get them
20:41:25  <creationix>"try the future today"
20:43:04  <creationix>reading gnome-shell code (it's smjs javascript) I barely recognize it as javascript as I know it.
20:44:54  <creationix>http://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-shell/tree/js/gdm/fingerprint.js
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