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01:09:24  <jgi>trevnorris: Why don’t we create an instance of SendWrap in NewSendWrap here: https://github.com/trevnorris/node/blob/remove-al-js/src/udp_wrap.cc#L76-L78? Why do we create it in UDPWrap::DoSend instead: https://github.com/trevnorris/node/blob/remove-al-js/src/udp_wrap.cc#L295?
01:09:47  <jgi>trevnorris: that’s a genuine question, and not because I think it should be done otherwise :)
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01:17:05  <trevnorris>jgi: that's legacy code I'm not sure.
01:17:28  <trevnorris>i can find out, but its dinner time. :)
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01:21:02  <jgi>trevnorris: sure no problem!
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15:32:26  <MI6>joyent/libuv: Elijah Andrews master * 89bc098 : readme: remove Rust from users - http://git.io/-TVIuw
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17:40:03  <MI6>joyent/node: Eric Mill v0.10 * 88bd95c : doc: update openssl commands to use best practices - http://git.io/cKumIA
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19:49:06  <bradleymeck>curious how people feel about https://github.com/joyent/node/issues/8704
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20:46:22  <yunong>Stick with UNIX convention please.
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21:02:39  <Wraithan>bradleymeck: unexpected but not enough of a thing that I'd actually comment on it. I can't think of negative reprocussions unless you were expecting your node process run out of descriptors at some lower point and die.
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21:14:51  <bradleymeck>Wraithan: it is a limit per process so if I want to have a parent limited to X number of fds (such as connections to prevent connection leaks, but have worker processes which I want able to work with many files / connections)
21:15:07  <bradleymeck>it only really comes up when you want to contain number of connections forcibly
21:16:21  <Wraithan>bradleymeck: yeah, to make it obvious that you are leaking (doesn't prevent the leak, just kills the process early which is different) that makes sense as well
21:16:46  <Wraithan>bradleymeck: I guess I've not gotten to that point in the past. Maybe that is why I don't feel strongly on it
21:17:11  <bradleymeck>and it only really occurs when you have a parent that needs a lower limit than its children
21:17:19  <bradleymeck>it happens, but not often
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22:43:49  <bradleymeck>yunong: Wraithan: well the question comes down to should we try to automatically take action when there is a common problem or respect/leave settings as they exist on the system
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23:22:07  <bradleymeck>piscisaureus: I have no words with how upsetting hearing people want to ignore system settings makes me
23:22:46  <bradleymeck>its like a huge finger to sys admins or existing tech that expects soft limits to work. Even java doesn't setrlimit
23:23:30  <bradleymeck>fixing this is a well known thing, finding out what / why / how node respects rlimit should not be different than any other process
23:23:56  <bradleymeck>how is a sys admin to diagnose why this one soft limit is ignored but all other soft limits are respected
23:24:41  <bradleymeck>you can see it change in /proc/$pid/limits but why did it change? how do I prevent this? Why would a process change this without me telling that. It is a huge red flag to me if any software did that
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23:26:17  <rendar>bradleymeck: are you refering to those people want node executable does change ulimits?
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23:30:40  <bradleymeck>yes I am
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23:31:09  <piscisaureus>bradleymeck: I hope the sys admins you're referring to take a little less personal than that
23:31:24  <bradleymeck>It is unexpected.
23:31:38  <bradleymeck>unexpected behavior red flags processes and projects to me pretty damn fast
23:31:55  <piscisaureus>bradleymeck: it's unexpected because it's different than it was
23:32:10  <piscisaureus>bradleymeck: now you know. we can document it too
23:32:12  <bradleymeck>its unexpected because *NO OTHER SOFTWARE* changes it automatically
23:32:17  <bradleymeck>find me an example
23:32:37  <bradleymeck>and any sys admin that changes only the soft limit of the system?
23:33:03  <trevnorris>tjfontaine: ping
23:33:03  <bradleymeck>you are fighting giants and a mountain of existing conventions and software
23:34:01  <piscisaureus>bradleymeck: it is my understanding that it would remove the necessity to change the default file limit on os x to use node
23:34:17  <bradleymeck>if you can find me a well used piece of software that ignores soft limits of num open files I will care
23:34:55  <bradleymeck>the file limit complains if you use java just the same as if you use node in 0.10.x, they are following system settings
23:35:14  <bradleymeck>in 0.11.x node is not following system settings / convention
23:35:54  <bradleymeck>hell if you bumped all the rlimits to the hard limit rather than just the num open files this would make more sense
23:36:23  <trevnorris>piscisaureus: at the minimum can't the limit be ifdef'd to osx only?
23:36:40  <bradleymeck>id be fine to that since no one does prod deploys to osx
23:37:27  <piscisaureus>bradleymeck: firefox does it? http://athena10.mit.edu/trac/browser/trunk/third/mozilla/xpfe/bootstrap/nsSigHandlers.cpp?rev=19266#L219
23:38:12  <piscisaureus>trevnorris: asking the question is answering it. Yes it could be ifdef'ed. I also think that node should restore the soft limit before spawning child processes.
23:38:49  <piscisaureus>bradleymeck: I think nginx does it too
23:38:56  <bradleymeck>piscisaureus: it seems chromium does too
23:39:41  <piscisaureus>bradleymeck: nginx yes https://github.com/nginx/nginx/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=setrlimit
23:39:42  <trevnorris>cool. it's already ifdef'd for *nix. let's just further constrain that to osx.
23:39:50  <piscisaureus>trevnorris: let's not
23:40:00  <trevnorris>why?
23:40:01  <bradleymeck>piscisaureus: worker_rlimit_nofile seems how nginx does it
23:40:39  <piscisaureus>trevnorris: I would like to not have to change the open file limit on linux too
23:41:12  <bradleymeck>piscisaureus: ok so we have examples of gui apps using this method. I have to go but find me a server software that does this
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23:41:39  <piscisaureus>trevnorris: but that's not the reason. Let's not hastily make any changes while there's still debate.
23:42:03  <trevnorris>why was the change made in the first place? I don't remember any discussion on this, is there a PR?
23:43:14  <piscisaureus>bradleymeck: I'm sure it exists but I don't find whether other software does it such a compelling argument
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