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04:43:35  <Orborde>Does uv_run(loop, UV_RUN_ONCE) only process one event at a time, or does it process all pending events?
04:44:07  <Orborde>It seems like it tries to run all the timers that are due, not just one of them.
04:46:12  <Orborde>With the result that, if I happen to schedule a new timer 0ms in the future every time the callback runs, uv_run never returns?
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07:28:42  <MI6>joyent/libuv: Jameson Nash master * 8db4238 : windows: sort environment variables before calling CreateProcess (+1 more commits) - http://git.io/PTUsMg
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07:39:16  <saghul_>Orborde: it will run one loop iteration
07:39:33  <saghul_>but if 1000 timers are due, all those callbacks will be fired
07:40:41  <saghul_>uv_run will return no matter what you schedule, it's return code will tell you if there are pending events or not
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07:54:53  <dirkson>Hey all. I'd like to set one of my libuv threads to only use cpu when the cpu isn't required by other of my libuv threads. Does libuv provide any cross platform way of doing that?
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08:10:42  <txdv>what
08:11:09  <txdv>the cpu is inherently required when you run any code
08:12:15  <dirkson>txdv: I have one set of tasks that's pretty low priority, all on one thread. I'd like it to yield its running time to my other threads when they need the cpu, rather than trying to gnaw up cpu power that isn't available.
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08:33:35  <txdv>well libuv has no functionality for that
08:34:02  <txdv>unless you explicity code it in and check the cpu usage every once in a while
08:34:28  <txdv>OSes have support for this, put that code into another process and set its nice level higher
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08:37:54  <saghul_>dirkson: libuv does not provide anything to help you with that...
08:41:17  <dirkson>saghul_: txdv: Well, damn. It seems like a thing every threading library ever should have... Buuut I haven't seen it in any threading library, so I guess my opinion is in the minority
08:41:50  <Orborde>saghul_: That is not actually true: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/libuv/uaN1o4IAWW8/WHGrB-IPsY0J
08:55:38  <txdv>its interesting
08:55:47  <txdv>because libuv is actually an event loop library
08:55:50  <txdv>not a threading library
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08:57:17  <saghul_>txdv: we do provide much more than a plain event loop though :-)
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08:58:06  <txdv>have you exposed the threading functionality in your python bindings?
08:58:37  <saghul_>txdv: partially, the synchronization primitives only
08:58:58  <saghul_>uv_thread_create no, since Python already has threads
08:59:08  <txdv>it does?
08:59:12  <saghul_>but some of uv's locks where faster than the python ones
08:59:40  <saghul_>txdv: not sure if trolling or legit question
08:59:44  <txdv>wait, isn't there a GIL in place which makes threads effectively not very usable
08:59:56  <saghul_>yes and no
09:00:12  <saghul_>the GIL prevents more than one thread from running Python code
09:00:30  <saghul_>but all blocking operations like socket.write release the GIL when they block
09:01:02  <saghul_>many projects use C extensions to do CPU intensive stuff in C, without the GIL
09:01:25  <saghul_>in pyuv, for example, uv_run is called without the GIL, which is acquired on every callback
09:02:43  <txdv>i just exposed in the c# bindings because all thread handling functionality is already handled by the base class library(standard library)
09:03:08  <txdv>i just exposed the loop event functionality in the c# ...
09:03:12  <saghul_>yeah
09:03:16  <txdv>forgot half of the sentence
09:03:35  <saghul_>in retrospect I probably should have not exposed the locks, I may drop them eventually
09:06:18  <txdv>ruby has 5 bindings :/
09:06:28  <saghul_>LoL
09:06:35  <saghul_>is any of them complete?
09:06:51  <txdv>last time i checked no
09:07:14  <txdv>i actually use ruby a lot so I check once in a while the list
09:07:57  <saghul_>doh :-/
09:08:08  <txdv>it is a problem that everyone is doing his own thing instead of rewriting/making other code better
09:09:01  <txdv>well you might say the same about libuv, why libuv if you have already libevent?
09:09:20  <saghul_>IOCP, fs operations
09:09:43  <saghul_>there was a justification post somewhere, by Ryan Dahl
09:09:55  <txdv>good old days
09:13:37  <saghul_>xD
09:14:14  <txdv>fs
09:14:30  <txdv>im still sad that aio on linux only supports direct block writes
09:15:16  <saghul_>yeah, it's kinda sad that all fs runs on a threadpool
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09:21:24  <txdv>its not like we have a different choice
09:21:40  <saghul_>unfortunately not :-/
09:22:19  <txdv>i already looked in the linux fs code
09:22:41  <txdv>but it is a lot of code
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09:24:19  <saghul_>IIRC there was also a possibility of apparent aio operations to become blocking
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09:28:51  <txdv>aio was implemented by oracle and redhat who cared only about databases
09:29:16  <txdv>and they implemented it at a block level since databases have their own buffering techniques
09:29:30  <txdv>and that was 7 years ago
09:30:41  <saghul_>oh
09:31:15  <txdv>but yeah you are right
09:31:29  <txdv>under some filesystems it is blocking because nobody cared about rewriting the code
09:31:55  <txdv>open source OS
09:32:16  <txdv>nobody else is going to implement that feature unless they need it
09:32:58  <indutny>trevnorris: pong
09:33:17  <txdv>ping
09:35:03  <txdv>saghul_: the biggest problem about the threading approach right now is that if you have 4 blocking calls which take a long time, it will block the entire 'threadpool' of libuv
09:35:15  <txdv>and this is actually bad
09:35:21  <saghul_>txdv: yeah, I know
09:35:42  <saghul_>we need to be able to resize it at runtime
09:36:14  <saghul_>or have a separate one just for fs ops, which can grow big and kill threads when not needed
09:37:47  <saghul_>arguably, most of those running into this problem are abusing the API, because on Unix everything is a fd...
09:39:23  <txdv>the fd cool aid
09:39:31  <txdv>linux has a system timer with an fd
09:39:39  <txdv>and I wondered why libuv doesn't use them
09:40:16  <txdv>but if you have a heavy app with a lot of timers, you will run out of file descriptors if you use a fd for every timer
09:41:06  <saghul_>txdv: you mean timerfd_create?
09:46:47  <txdv>yeah
09:47:27  <saghul_>not sure how much the gain would be, but one fd per timer doesn't sound like a very good thing?
09:47:54  <txdv>fd exhaustion is not a good thing
09:49:13  <txdv>I don't have any app which would face that problem
09:49:30  <txdv>but if you have 10k connections and a timer for everyone of them then you double the amount of fds
09:52:07  <saghul_>yeah
09:53:49  <nathan7>saghul_: I've been thinking about how to manage resources like thread pools
09:54:15  <nathan7>saghul_: I'm pushing myself to write an implementation of ARC, and ARC has a wonderful trick at the centre
09:54:43  <nathan7>saghul_: It doesn't just do LRU, it also looks at how frequently stuff is used
09:55:09  <saghul_>nathan7: ARC as in Automatic Reference Countine?
09:55:09  <nathan7>saghul_: thus avoiding the drop-fetch cycle of things that are requested many times but further apart in time
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09:55:17  <saghul_>*Counting
09:55:34  <nathan7>saghul_: No, as in Adaptive Replacement Cache
09:55:41  <nathan7>saghul_: The cache algorithm ZFS uses
09:55:46  <saghul_>aha
09:55:53  <saghul_>that makes more sense :-P
09:55:59  <nathan7>saghul_: The magic thing that eats all my disk reads
09:57:44  <nathan7>saghul_: translating that trick to pooled resources would mean we can avoid constantly resizing
09:59:25  <saghul_>I see (sorry, I'm half-afk, trying to compile DirectX shit from the ancient times)
09:59:28  <nathan7>saghul_: but these are just my theoretical musings
09:59:40  <nathan7>saghul_: aww, I feel for you
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10:10:04  <txdv>ARC LRU
10:10:05  <LOUDBOT>IT'S FIVE IN THE DAMN MORNING WHAT
10:10:29  <txdv>thats right loud bot, at least if feels like that
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10:12:08  <nathan7>it's twelve here and I just goddamn woke up
10:12:11  <nathan7>my life is a mess :|
10:12:58  <saghul_>nathan7: are you on the vampire shift? :-P
10:13:32  <nathan7>saghul_: nope, just stayed up too long last night
10:13:52  <nathan7>saghul_: working on my storage system ideas
10:14:10  <nathan7>saghul_: I'm working on building a better ZFS, basically
10:15:53  <saghul_>nathan7: oh! sounds... complicated!
10:15:55  <txdv>that is why you want to apply some zfs algorithm ideas to threadpool management
10:16:08  <nathan7>well, no, ARC is more generally used
10:16:15  <nathan7>it's just particularly well-applied in ZFS
10:16:26  <txdv>i need to read up what ARC is
10:16:51  <nathan7>and I'm just pulling the general idea of using frequency of use to avoid thrashing out of it
10:17:20  <nathan7>like, ARC as a whole isn't applicable at all
10:18:11  <txdv>arc is automatic reference counting
10:18:24  <txdv>can you explain how you want it to apply?
10:18:30  <nathan7>it's also Adaptive Replacement Cache
10:18:40  <txdv>o ok
10:18:46  <txdv>i search for the wrong term
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10:19:58  <txdv>and how would you use that?
10:20:10  <nathan7>ARC itself is *not* applicable
10:20:15  <nathan7>just one of the ideas it makes use of
10:20:23  <txdv>what is that idea
10:20:53  <nathan7>it avoids repeatedly dropping and refetching entries
10:21:04  <nathan7>using the second pair of lists, the ones tracking frequency of use
10:22:24  <txdv>yes
10:22:32  <txdv>but what do you want to cache in libuv?
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10:22:40  <nathan7>not cache
10:22:58  <nathan7>I'd want to avoid repeatedly resizing the thread pool
10:23:15  <nathan7>though maybe the cost of that is too small to bother avoiding it
10:23:25  <nathan7>this is mostly my theoretical musings, mind you
10:23:35  <txdv>resizing the thread pool means a possible ENOMEM
10:23:46  <txdv>im not happy about it
10:23:52  <nathan7>mhm
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10:28:29  <txdv>we have currently a maybe_resize in unic/core.c
10:28:34  <nathan7>I guess basically limiting dn/dt (where n is amount of threads) is all that is necessary
10:28:45  <txdv>and a lot of functions depend on it and it is nasty to propagate that error through
10:28:49  <txdv>currenlty it just does an abort
10:28:57  <txdv>dn/dt?
10:29:07  <nathan7>based on earlier observations though, so you'd have to figure out the right dn/dt
10:29:14  <nathan7>derivative of thread count against time
10:29:25  <nathan7>ie the rate at which threads are created/destroyed
10:30:09  <txdv>you have to establish the context of acronyms before using it
10:30:14  <txdv>them*
10:30:23  <nathan7>not an acronym, just regular math
10:43:36  <txdv>its basically resizing the list depending on the thread creation/deletion ratio?
10:44:09  <nathan7>like, I guess the base case is trying to keep that at 0
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12:37:47  <indutny>saghul_: heya
12:37:53  <indutny>saghul_: I just discovered interesting thing :)
12:38:09  <indutny>saghul_: nginx is using NOTE_LOWAT to transform kqueue into a edge-triggered thing
12:46:06  <saghul_>i thought it could bee done with KEV_ONESHOT?
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19:26:46  <trevnorris>afternoon
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19:43:46  <jgi>trevnorris: afternoon!
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20:02:21  <MI6>joyent/node: James Halliday v0.10 * 8e2cc69 : stream: fix Readable.wrap objectMode falsy values - http://git.io/L7MogA
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