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00:36:01  <othiym23>that way, it's a l w a y s t h e r e
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00:39:06  <tjfontaine>which what where when why?
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00:40:19  <nathan7>tjfontaine: process.* :(
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00:54:23  <tjfontaine>clearly we need more globals
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02:05:37  <kellabyte_>libuv seems to reference NI_MAXHOST and NI_MAXSERV, where do these values come from? I couldn't find them searching the github repo
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02:10:29  <mmalecki>kellabyte_: http://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man3/getnameinfo.3.html, NOTES seems to explain it
02:11:15  <kellabyte_>hmm interesting. when I compile libuv it says it's not finding these two variable. I wonder why
02:12:41  <mmalecki>"Since glibc 2.8, these definitions are exposed only if one of the feature test macros _BSD_SOURCE, _SVID_SOURCE, or _GNU_SOURCE is defined.
02:12:48  <mmalecki>maybe ^ ? do we define those?
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02:44:35  <kellabyte_>hmm looks like it's defined? https://github.com/joyent/libuv/search?q=_GNU_SOURCE&ref=cmdform
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05:39:14  <saghul_>kellabyte_: what platform are you in?
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06:45:22  <wolfeidau>Heya trying to build the latest node 0.11 on arm and getting gyp: name 'arm_version' is not defined while evaluating condition 'arm_version==7'
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13:26:00  <bradleymeck>trevnorris: v8 guy wonders if we have a repro outside of node
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15:26:49  <saghul_>indutny: ping https://github.com/joyent/libuv/pull/1282 :-)
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17:05:12  <trevnorris>brett19: i responded w/ a simplified example. still built w/ node, but I think it get's the point across.
17:05:22  <trevnorris>brett19: whoops, not for you :P
17:05:30  <trevnorris>freaking auto complete
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17:17:55  <trevnorris>tjfontaine: just created a small test script against msgpack-js. execution time is 3.2x's slower.
17:18:21  <trevnorris>vs removing the commit that causes the issue.
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17:41:31  <tjfontaine>trevnorris: cool, can you gist the script for me?
17:41:39  <trevnorris>yeah
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17:42:23  <trevnorris>tjfontaine: well, the entirety of the script is here: https://github.com/joyent/node/pull/7650#issuecomment-43789793
17:43:54  <tjfontaine>ok, that's not entirely what I meant by real world -- but it does show the regression more
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18:14:34  <tjfontaine>trevnorris: is bens assertion that it's fixed in 3.26?
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18:25:37  <othiym23>tjfontaine: the traffic on the bug indicates that it's not yet fixed
18:26:00  <othiym23>I think Ben's assertion is that it's more likely to be fixed in 3.26, so no backporting will be necessary
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18:26:38  <tjfontaine>I think he means it's more likely to have the fix backported to 3.26
18:28:03  <othiym23>is it backporting?
18:28:14  <othiym23>I was under the impression that 3.26 is pretty much V8 trunk right now
18:28:46  <tjfontaine>no 3.27 is development
18:28:57  <othiym23>which makes 3.26 stable, no?
18:29:20  <tjfontaine>yes, and 3.25 is what's in node master at the moment
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18:40:15  <tjfontaine>othiym23: I know
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18:48:03  <isaacs>tjfontaine: would you be open to landing a more recent npm in 0.8 before this release?
18:48:19  <isaacs>tjfontaine: or do you want to minimize the changes?
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18:48:57  <trevnorris>tjfontaine: yeah, what you guys said.
18:49:10  <trevnorris>it's still a bug, but more likely to be back ported to 3.26 than 3.25
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19:08:12  <isaacs>childProcess.on("close", fn) was in 0.8, right?
19:08:15  <isaacs>that's not a 0.10-ism?
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19:12:55  <mmalecki>isaacs: yes, 0.8
19:17:07  <isaacs>kewl
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19:26:39  <isaacs>tjfontaine: also, it would really be great to get node releases on a regular schedule. since i don't know when it's coming, it's hard to know when to send you a pull req with a new npm.
19:27:09  <isaacs>tjfontaine: we don't want to do it right before a release, but i usually don't know that a release is coming UNTIL right before it, so it's very difficult to plan around.
19:28:52  <MI6>joyent/node: isaacs created branch v0.8-npm-1.4.10 - http://git.io/JkZ6Tg
19:28:58  <isaacs>tjfontaine: anyway, if you're interested: ^
19:29:02  <bradleymeck>othiym23: what was the grumble about 3.25?
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19:35:14  <trevnorris>is there any difference between "const uv_buf_t bufs[]" and "const uv_buf_t* bufs" ?
19:35:59  <trevnorris>bradleymeck: well, looks like they've at least accepted there _is_ a bug. guess that's the first step.
19:36:35  <dap_>trevnorris: yup
19:37:31  <trevnorris>funny thing is, once I revert that commit from 3.25.30, the test script uses like half the memory than it did before the commit was introduced.
19:38:34  <trevnorris>tjfontaine: so they've accepted it up stream, but for now can I merge https://github.com/joyent/node/pull/7650 ?
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19:39:55  <dap_>trevnorris: "deep c secrets" covers a lot of stuff like this (and it's written pretty interestingly too). I can't remember much of the difference between those two though
19:40:21  <bradleymeck>trevnorris: yea, they would like us not to use external arrays, but there are still problems with extending them for now, doubt they will fix those since it would require "extends" to be implemented basically
19:41:31  <trevnorris>bradleymeck: honestly, for a little while i was excited about using the new ArrayBuffer class, once they allowed extending natives, but now that they've changed the API to require using weak persistent handles if the user passes in pre-allocated data, it's just more of a PITA.
19:41:43  <trevnorris>dap_: cool. i'll look it up.
19:42:40  <trevnorris>bradleymeck: the reason was is because they did some serious hackery in the GC to specially handle array buffers. but if they require weak persistents then all the performance advantages are gone.
19:42:44  <bradleymeck>trevnorris: it is a PITA but they will give typed arrays more love than external
19:43:11  <trevnorris>but the point is that the need for a weak persistent kicks all that love in the groin
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19:43:53  <trevnorris>so we're left with a more complicated API that doesn't have any of the performance advantages they've invested in for typed arrays
19:43:56  <bradleymeck>have talks about this been brought up to them / do you know how they are handling blobs in the browser?
19:44:16  <tjfontaine>isaacs: I'm of the opinion that npm is upstream so it should feel free to release at its own pace, just like v8, and when node needs/wants to upgrade npm it can -- but releasing for the sake of getting a new npm or v8 is not a priority for node
19:44:35  <trevnorris>bradleymeck: tried to have a talk, and it didn't end up going anywhere: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/v8-users/CtOe7f6znZU
19:44:35  <tjfontaine>isaacs: if you want you can keep an npm-upgrade branch up to date with your releases and we can rebase and integrate as is necessary
19:47:44  <trevnorris>bradleymeck: if you have any ideas of how to kick that back up, you'll receive a virtual purple pony.
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19:48:33  <trevnorris>i mean... wtf. it's totally possible to get around their stupid api decision by setting a flag state used by the ArrayBufferAllocator to return pre-allocated memory
19:48:39  <trevnorris>but that's a complete hack.
19:48:54  <trevnorris>tjfontaine: you said something about users abusing threads. how they doing that?
19:49:27  <tjfontaine>I am worried about doing that hack + people using multiple environments
19:49:44  <tjfontaine>not that v8 really likes the idea of being called from multiple threads
19:50:15  <tjfontaine>in short it's not a pretty pattern -- and I suppose at some point v8 could make allocation be lazy -- such that the state field is cleared before we know what's going on
19:50:39  <tjfontaine>trevnorris: where do you see it being accepted upstream, the issue doesn't say anything about it, and github v8 doesn't have the commit in master or in 3.25
19:51:50  <trevnorris>tjfontaine: their v8 port of the svn repo os botched. I had to use git log --all to find the commit.
19:52:01  <trevnorris>*is
19:52:20  <tjfontaine>which branch is it applied to?
19:52:38  <trevnorris>it was applied between 3.25.27 and 3.25.28
19:53:09  <tjfontaine>the reversion?
19:53:46  <trevnorris>reversion?
19:53:57  <tjfontaine>so lets rewind
19:54:06  <tjfontaine>[05-21] 19:38:34 < trevnorris> tjfontaine: so they've accepted it up stream, but for now can I merge https://github.com/joyent/node/pull/7650
19:54:13  <tjfontaine>what is "it" and where was it accepted
19:54:39  <trevnorris>tjfontaine: they've accepted that it is an issue: https://code.google.com/p/v8/issues/detail?id=3337
19:54:53  <trevnorris>but the chances they backport the fix to 3.25 is slim
19:55:07  <tjfontaine>they accept that there's a regression, not that the solution is to revert
19:55:12  <trevnorris>yeah
19:55:25  <trevnorris>but the revert fixes the problem for now, and there's no loss in functionality.
19:55:31  <tjfontaine>I think we can be in a hold pattern until we cut the actual 0.12
19:55:32  <trevnorris>it's all just implementation details
19:55:43  <tjfontaine>we'll wait to see what their solution is, and if we can get them to backport for us
19:55:56  <tjfontaine>if they can't backport for us, we will investigate what it takes to do it ourselves
19:56:06  <tjfontaine>and failing boht of those things, revert the change that screws us
19:56:12  <trevnorris>ok. so we'll just make a decision just before the v0.12 release. fair enough.
19:56:22  <tjfontaine>I'll comment on the issue that outlines this
19:56:25  <trevnorris>if we simply go back to 3.25.27 then the issue won't exist.
19:56:37  <trevnorris>not that I like that idea. but just saying
19:56:45  <trevnorris>it gives us another option
19:56:55  <tjfontaine>yes, there are solutions -- which is the important thing
19:57:34  <trevnorris>my main concern is how quickly they take to resolve the issue. since they already don't like the api anyways.
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19:58:02  <tjfontaine>they don't like SetIndexed...?
19:58:26  <trevnorris>they've been wanting to deprecate it for months
19:58:35  <trevnorris>we're the reason it hasn't been
19:59:13  <tjfontaine>tell them they can drop it as soon as we can build our buffer on top of theirs ;)
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20:02:29  <trevnorris>heh, that was the concensus on the mailing list.
20:02:53  <trevnorris>brb
20:02:54  * trevnorris&
20:02:54  <LOUDBOT>YOU WILL LOVE IT SOON ENOUGH
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20:57:25  <MI6>joyent/node: jochen@chromium.org merge-review * e7bfbaf : v8: backport no handle zapping for release builds (+3 more commits) - http://git.io/d56InQ
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21:23:50  <bradleymeck>tjfontaine: yea... dunno if we can get an ideal solution for StackGuards in the Debugger, but we can queue up the interrupts (unsure if this will allow us to pause VM and start up the debugger)
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21:24:42  <tjfontaine>bradleymeck: trying to do that is basically just going to make you sad, debugging a process from with in a process is -- well -- turtles all the way down
21:25:00  <tjfontaine>these other tools need to exist for a reason.
21:25:12  <bradleymeck>tjfontaine: agreed dunno what to reply to on that issue though
21:25:42  <bradleymeck>we don't even have the fancy bootstrap system debugger get to do
21:26:05  <tjfontaine>you can just parrot your feelings :)
21:26:53  <bradleymeck>perhaps just including a href to helpful things in the docs would be enough for them to use more sane approaches... ill reply in a bit
21:27:40  <tjfontaine>k
21:30:26  <MI6>joyent/node: jochen@chromium.org master * e7bfbaf : v8: backport no handle zapping for release builds (+3 more commits) - http://git.io/AaYKYA
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21:32:56  <isaacs>tjfontaine: ok, well, the reason i hadn't tried to do a v0.8 npm update is that there wasn't much chance of a v0.8 release.
21:33:29  <isaacs>tjfontaine: but it would be pretty easy for me to just keep a branch up to date with the npm updates.
21:33:39  <isaacs>tjfontaine: the problem is that it gets a bit annoying for people to have outdated npm clients.
21:34:22  <isaacs>tjfontaine: would you like this branch to be in joyent/node or isaacs/node? same either way for me.
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21:35:32  <tjfontaine>same for me as well, and yes outdated clients are always a problem, but I expect you guys to always be ahead of our releases, and it does good for node's bundled version of npm to see more life in the wild before merging in
21:36:38  <isaacs>tjfontaine: another option would be to just have node follow the npm-published versions of npm
21:36:50  <isaacs>tjfontaine: that's the one that people are already installing manually when they hit bugs and we tell them to update.
21:37:21  <isaacs>tjfontaine: and 1.4.10 has been in the wild for quite a while before landing in 0.8.
21:37:51  <tjfontaine>it's just out of policy to do minor version bumps for those releases
21:38:25  <tjfontaine>I mean there are a lot of people out there running 0.10.15 for unfortunate reasons, and they're hit by the ^ semver issue
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21:38:48  <isaacs>it is reasonable to expect people to be less than a year out of date.
21:40:01  <isaacs>tjfontaine: so, where should i put npm? just publishign to the npm registry and npm/npm github is easiest for me.
21:40:37  <isaacs>tjfontaine: but if it makes your life easier, i don't mind maintaining a joyent/node#v0.{10,8,12}-npm upstream branch
21:40:46  <isaacs>s/upstream/git/
21:41:37  <tjfontaine>whatever as a project you want to do for your releases seems reasonable then node can consume and distribute that as part of its process
21:44:02  <isaacs>ok. i just don't want the node installer to become Yet Another shabby source of outdated bits.
21:44:29  <isaacs>npm is a big part of the reason people use node, and vice versa.
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21:45:02  <isaacs>so i'll publish npm to npm, and trust you to keep it up to date, then?
21:45:48  <tjfontaine>sure
21:46:12  <isaacs>okie dokie. then, on that note, <poke> update npm in v0.8 if you're going tobe doing a release anyway.
21:46:33  <isaacs>there's a branch v0.8-npm-1.4.10 with the patch
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22:16:07  <indutny>tjfontaine: I think I'll backport fsevents changes to v0.10
22:16:09  <indutny>from v0.11
22:18:57  <tjfontaine>isaacs: thanks
22:19:00  <tjfontaine>indutny: hm ok
22:19:25  <indutny>tjfontaine: because of this https://github.com/joyent/node/issues/5463#issuecomment-43340135
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22:22:55  <tjfontaine>indutny: lemme look at the change again
22:23:12  <indutny>tjfontaine: ok, it is basically changing the watch model
22:23:16  <indutny>from one FSEvent per handle
22:23:21  <indutny>to one FSEvent per loop
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22:23:48  <tjfontaine>it's all internal changes and no abi breakage?
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23:48:59  <MI6>joyent/node: Calvin Metcalf v0.10 * 31150df : doc: clarify `end` vs `finish` in streams - http://git.io/U6qRTw
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