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01:02:23  <isaacs>trevnorris: so, re globals, yes. require('_trace') is way better than global.SOME_THING()
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11:30:32  <MI6>joyent/node: Ben Noordhuis master * dc9acd4 : assert: replace !!!value with just !value - http://git.io/wsjSRQ
11:43:14  <MI6>nodejs-master: #329 UNSTABLE smartos-x64 (9/619) linux-x64 (1/619) smartos-ia32 (2/619) http://jenkins.nodejs.org/job/nodejs-master/329/
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12:02:02  <MI6>nodejs-master-windows: #131 UNSTABLE windows-ia32 (18/619) windows-x64 (19/619) http://jenkins.nodejs.org/job/nodejs-master-windows/131/
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12:35:36  <MI6>joyent/node: Ben Noordhuis v0.10 * 6327d67 : crypto: fix assert() on malformed hex input (+1 more commits) - http://git.io/Re0DnQ
12:46:24  <mmalecki>hmm, iirc there was a way to build node as a static library but can't find it in anywhere :/
12:49:12  <bnoordhuis>mmalecki: hasn't been possible since v0.4, i think
12:49:39  <bnoordhuis>you can if you hack the build system but it has't been supported as such in ages
12:52:42  <mmalecki>bnoordhuis: damn. any other options for embedding node.js into a C++ app you can think of?
12:52:57  <bnoordhuis>mmalecki: execve()? :)
12:53:19  <mmalecki>hahahha
12:53:26  <mmalecki>obviously :-)
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12:59:22  <mmalecki>bnoordhuis: would you accept a pull request which added a nice way to run node tick-by-tick? like with UV_RUN_NOWAIT or UV_RUN_ONCE
13:00:09  <mmalecki>bnoordhuis: what I have in mind is refactoring everything up to uv_run to a separate function which could be called from a static library
13:00:58  <bnoordhuis>`git rerere` is such a massive time saver
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13:01:12  <bnoordhuis>i want to have babies with the guy that wrote it
13:01:32  <bnoordhuis>mmalecki: hrm, maybe
13:01:55  <bnoordhuis>mmalecki: keep in mind i use the me factor when considering pull requests
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13:02:07  <bnoordhuis>i.e. 'will _i_ use it?'
13:02:11  <mmalecki>bnoordhuis: understandable :-)
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13:09:46  <bnoordhuis>piscisaureus_: bertje, sup?
13:09:53  <piscisaureus_>soup?
13:10:16  <piscisaureus_>EnterUmsSchedulingMode()
13:10:16  <bnoordhuis>anything noteworthy to report?
13:12:00  <bnoordhuis>simple/test-cluster-dgram-[12] annoy me, they break because of my iptables rules...
13:12:38  <piscisaureus_>http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/5471dc8s(v=vs.80).aspx is actually pretty useful
13:13:46  <bnoordhuis>ah... alloca(). here be dragons
13:14:06  <piscisaureus_>bnoordhuis: well - it's smart alloca
13:14:29  <piscisaureus_>bnoordhuis: it allocs either from heap or from stack, depending on the size
13:14:33  <bnoordhuis>at least it throws an exception on stack overflow instead of doing $DEITY knows what
13:14:53  <piscisaureus_>bnoordhuis: ... so it should be safe to use in most cases
13:15:23  <piscisaureus_>bnoordhuis: yeah but we can't use SEH because mingw doesn't support it
13:17:23  <bnoordhuis>i thought recent versions of mingw did?
13:18:44  <piscisaureus_>I am not aware of that
13:20:00  <MI6>joyent/node: Ben Noordhuis master * b8c04b9 : Merge remote-tracking branch 'origin/v0.10' (+23 more commits) - http://git.io/HheBhg
13:20:11  <bnoordhuis>piscisaureus_: lmgtfy, one sec
13:21:02  <bnoordhuis>piscisaureus_: http://qt-project.org/wiki/MinGW-64-bit
13:21:42  <piscisaureus_>ah - mingw-w64
13:21:49  <piscisaureus_>it's such a mess
13:22:04  <piscisaureus_>mingw-w64 is much better than mingw32
13:22:08  <bnoordhuis>http://www.nrc.nl/carriere/2013/07/30/google-weet-medewerkers-maar-moeilijk-vast-te-houden/ <- amusing
13:22:26  <piscisaureus_>and it can also compile for x86 targets
13:22:49  <piscisaureus_>so why are people still using mingw32? because w64 has no installer...
13:23:46  <bnoordhuis>piscisaureus_: you're the expert on windows installers by now, right?
13:23:53  <piscisaureus_>gawd
13:29:59  <bnoordhuis>so, full-time macdonalds employees make $1218/month
13:30:13  <bnoordhuis>that's EUR 916/month...
13:30:31  <bnoordhuis>guess i'll stay on as a programmer for now
13:37:43  <piscisaureus_>but you have so much talent for baking burgers
13:38:22  <bnoordhuis>while that's certainly true, the monetary reward simply isn't there
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14:42:22  <roxlu>guys & girls, when I havea uv_stream_t* how can it be writable even when it's not yet connected to a server (pipe)
14:45:20  <bnoordhuis>roxlu: magic
14:45:26  <roxlu>hehe :)
14:45:34  <bnoordhuis>one sec
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14:55:59  <bnoordhuis>back. someone at the door
14:56:22  <bnoordhuis>roxlu: uv-unix queues up writes when you're still connecting
14:56:33  <bnoordhuis>however... i don't think uv-win currently does that
14:57:16  <roxlu>hey, ok
14:57:39  <roxlu>it was an easy fix for me to check if there is actually a client stored on the server
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15:07:14  <bnoordhuis>indutny, trevnorris: got PRs i should look at?
15:10:19  <bnoordhuis>Revert "Check that ExternalString objects get aligned resources" (r15894) - sigh, i just fixed that in node last night
15:10:40  <bnoordhuis>well, whatever - the code base got better because of it
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15:17:55  <isaacs>On our call today, i'd like to talk about our process, and specifically whether this call is super useful, or if we should rethink it and do other things
15:18:08  * isaacscommuting, will be back in 30 minutes or so
15:29:36  <bnoordhuis>https://github.com/v8/v8/commit/aa4f090 <- i confess i don't understand how that still manages to produce the right result...
15:33:05  <MI6>joyent/node: Ben Noordhuis master * 2fc47ab : v8: upgrade v8 to 3.20.11 - http://git.io/NZPKBw
15:33:09  <bnoordhuis>^ yet more important bug fixes
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15:50:03  <trevnorris>bnoordhuis: hah, you actually ask if there's a PR for review and I don't have one. there's a first. :)
15:53:23  <trevnorris>call today?
15:55:30  <bnoordhuis>yep
15:55:34  <bnoordhuis>in 5
15:55:41  <trevnorris>coolio, thanks.
15:58:36  <trevnorris>skype or hangouts?
15:59:34  <trevnorris>nm, forgot I need to login online :P
16:00:05  <trevnorris>sorry, think I just video called everyone.
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16:00:59  <isaacs>trevnorris: hangouts
16:00:59  <isaacs>https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/5b6b53fce8c09512b15a7e7d5c2fbb51d9557288
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16:02:03  <isaacs>bnoordhuis, piscisaureus_: call?
16:02:10  <bnoordhuis>yes, joining
16:03:20  <bnoordhuis>piscisaureus_: call
16:03:36  <isaacs>piscisaureus_: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/5b6b53fce8c09512b15a7e7d5c2fbb51d9557288
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17:04:41  <trevnorris>bnoordhuis: noticed you comment on MakeCallback. was thinking, since tick processing has been simplified I'll give a quick go at reimplementing it in js.
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17:07:05  <isaacs>https://twitter.com/izs/status/362245480564019200
17:07:41  <mraleph1>trevnorris: pong
17:08:24  <tjfontaine>isaacs: so creepy to see myself so many times
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17:16:09  <trevnorris>mraleph1: irhydra output from node v0.10 only showed Z_Code generation, but from master is showing much more. i'll assume that's from the v8 upgrade.
17:16:11  <trevnorris>mraleph1: haven't been able to find any docs on what each of those are. know if there're some around?
17:20:19  <bnoordhuis>trevnorris: i think that's because the output changed in v8 3.17 (iirc)
17:20:40  <bnoordhuis>node v0.10 ships with v8 3.14
17:22:18  <trevnorris>bnoordhuis: makes sense. the hydrogen output increased by 20x. haven't figured out if there's a way to toggle a specific thing, but tracing for a long time is creating huge files.
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17:23:32  <bnoordhuis>trevnorris: i don't think v8 has options to tweak that, it's all or nothing
17:23:47  <trevnorris>bnoordhuis: ok cool. thanks.
17:35:54  <trevnorris>bnoordhuis: running After() immediately if there was an error, instead of firing in the normal event loop. have an idea how that could be easily fixed?
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17:53:54  <indutny>hey people
17:53:59  <indutny>sorry for missing the call
17:54:04  <indutny>is there any notes available?
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18:16:31  <mraleph1>trevnorris: it used to use --trace-phase(s) (don't remember precise name of the flag) to turn on LHZ phases in various combinations, by default only Z was on. maybe they removed this flag or set it to LHZ instead of Z
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18:17:44  <trevnorris>mraleph1: awesomeness. thanks very much.
18:18:35  <mraleph1>I still need to repair some parsing that was damaged in hydra due to recent changes.
18:18:58  <mraleph1>it's eats away smi ssa variables, and so on
18:19:59  <trevnorris>hm. v8 doesn't like to play nice sometimes.
18:22:13  <mraleph1>I just don't think they use it, which is fine by me :-)
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18:59:26  <indutny>isaacs: yt?
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19:00:24  <indutny>isaacs: I believe I found a bug https://github.com/isaacs/npmjs.org/blob/master/registry/views.js#L194
19:00:32  <indutny>sometimes scripts[i] is not an array
19:00:50  <indutny>or not even string
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19:01:01  <indutny>look at carahue module
19:15:56  <indutny>no way you're reading this
19:20:10  <trevnorris>bnoordhuis: in the middle of changing the nextTick docs, and i want to use an example where only nextTick will do. I can't come up with one. have an idea?
19:20:34  <trevnorris>bnoordhuis: I just can't come up with a case where using setImmediate instead wouldn't work.
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19:31:06  <trevnorris>isaacs: ping
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19:33:24  <MI6>joyent/node: Ben Noordhuis master * 71b3138 : src: remove unused import in src/node_os.cc (+1 more commits) - http://git.io/zA1gpw
19:33:48  <bnoordhuis>trevnorris: well, it's like you say - setImmediate does everything process.nextTick does
19:34:18  <bnoordhuis>the only reason - but you should document that - is that process.nextTick may be faster to dispatch
19:34:29  <bnoordhuis>s/should/should not/
19:34:45  <bnoordhuis>people will get the wrong idea
19:36:12  <trevnorris>bnoordhuis: sort of, but not in every way. i've updated the OP here with a better example that could be confusing: https://github.com/joyent/node/issues/5943
19:36:45  <trevnorris>bnoordhuis: nextTick will run before uv_run continues, where setImmediate only runs at the end of uv_run.
19:37:15  <trevnorris>(well, in the case that the original callback was called though MakeCallback. i'm documenting that for modules developers as well)
19:38:20  <bnoordhuis>re: that test case from #5943, it works like i would expect it to actually
19:38:47  <bnoordhuis>if you document process.nextTick's behavior, please add a big "subject to change without notice" warning
19:39:11  <trevnorris>heh, ok.
19:39:59  <trevnorris>bnoordhuis: re: the naming is confusing. honestly it'd make more sense to have the names switched. since nextTick is technically more immediate than setImmediate.
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19:48:41  <trevnorris>bnoordhuis: i've updated the example in http://git.io/Y2er8Q to hopefully better show what I think may be confusing.
19:49:22  <trevnorris>bnoordhuis: basically that the nextTick in the current script will immediately fire, but the nextTick in setImmediate won't fire until all the setImmediate callbacks fire.
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19:51:52  <trevnorris>bnoordhuis: ah, is that why we don't use "using" in headers? thanks for clearing that up. :)
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19:56:04  <trevnorris>isaacs: there's a large chunk of documentation in process.nextTick about making sure your api is asynchronous, but now with setImmediate I feel that the information there is too generic.
19:56:15  <trevnorris>isaacs: have an idea where else that documentation should go, if anywhere?
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20:04:28  <MI6>joyent/node: Ben Noordhuis master * 8111ca2 : src: const-ify variables in src/node_crypto* - http://git.io/m4KKlA
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20:07:02  * trevnorris&
20:07:03  <LOUDBOT>ARE YOU GUYS STUCK IN A CANYON?
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20:26:46  <isaacs>trevnorris: maybe there should be a general "async programming overview" section or somethign?
20:26:53  <isaacs>trevnorris: it'd probably be worthwhile
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20:40:03  <indutny>isaacs: hoya
20:41:52  <isaacs>indutny: hola
20:42:12  <indutny>isaacs: what do you think about that npm-registry pull request?
20:42:20  <isaacs>indutny: hrm... which one?
20:42:21  <indutny>https://github.com/isaacs/npmjs.org/pull/115
20:42:32  <indutny>I was fixing problems with couchdb
20:42:41  <indutny>when I found that there're problems with some packages
20:42:50  <indutny>particularly, `carahue`
20:42:59  <indutny>as it has non-string `script`
20:43:00  <isaacs>indutny: ahh
20:43:02  <isaacs>yeah, https://github.com/isaacs/npmjs.org/pull/115
20:43:04  <isaacs>that's good
20:43:16  <isaacs>indutny: landing now, i'll also add a vdu change
20:43:17  <indutny>does it need "dual" patch for validate-doc-update?
20:43:21  <indutny>cool
20:43:22  <indutny>thank you!
20:46:30  <trevnorris>isaacs: good idea. also because we need documentation on proper use of MakeCallback when calling a js callback after an async operation.
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20:53:46  <MI6>joyent/node: Ben Noordhuis master * 4cc57b4 : crypto: simplify DH modp group name matcher - http://git.io/5nS8Kw
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20:57:24  <isaacs>bnoordhuis: so, what's the score on cpplint? i'm ok with taking that hit once, since it'll enable us to start enforcing basic style consistency moving forward.
20:57:53  <isaacs>bnoordhuis: but we should probably do that in master, once we're reasonably sure that there won't be much merging from v0.10. actually, merging C++ from v0.10 is already pretty painful, with the V8 API changes.
21:00:43  <indutny>heh
21:00:46  <indutny>you're right
21:00:52  <indutny>probably we should enforce it now
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21:03:32  <bnoordhuis>isaacs, indutny: yeah, i'm okay with that
21:03:39  <bnoordhuis>i can probably do that this week
21:03:45  <indutny>well, I can do it myself
21:03:48  <indutny>its mostly robot-work
21:03:53  <bnoordhuis>yeah
21:03:58  <bnoordhuis>but cpplint needs a bit of tweaking
21:04:03  <indutny>yeah
21:04:10  <indutny>I've one really important question about style
21:04:13  <bnoordhuis>the defaults are mostly okay but some are deeply moronic
21:04:15  <indutny>switch and case
21:04:28  <indutny>I usually place cases on +1 space from switch
21:04:37  <indutny>while lint wants me to put them on +2
21:04:40  <indutny>and their bodies on +4
21:04:44  <bnoordhuis>yuk
21:04:45  <indutny>bnoordhuis: what do you think?
21:04:51  <bnoordhuis>Real Men don't indent the case statement
21:05:02  <indutny>on the same indent as switch?
21:05:05  <bnoordhuis>yep
21:05:11  <indutny>that looks awkward
21:05:19  <indutny>why moving `public:` `private:` then?
21:05:27  <bnoordhuis>yeah, i don't do that either
21:05:31  <bnoordhuis>horizontal space is precious
21:05:38  <indutny>haha
21:05:50  <indutny>great, I think we'll have some pain points here
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21:06:15  <bnoordhuis>meh, it's not that important
21:06:20  <indutny>basically, we already have `switch` in all possible styles in src/
21:06:22  <bnoordhuis>some of the things cpplint suggests though...
21:06:34  <bnoordhuis>like including system headers before project headers
21:06:37  <indutny>yep
21:06:40  <bnoordhuis>that's so wrong i don't know where to start
21:06:40  <indutny>I like it
21:06:51  <indutny>why?
21:06:54  <indutny>it makes thing clearer
21:07:03  <indutny>and also spatial defines won't come in
21:07:06  <indutny>which is a bit problem, right
21:07:09  <indutny>hehe
21:07:12  <bnoordhuis>the project header should include what it needs and not implicitly depend on what the including file includes
21:07:23  <bnoordhuis>i.e. if your header needs size_t it should include stddef.h
21:07:35  <indutny>oh, really?
21:07:42  <indutny>I think I was using unistd.h for this
21:07:42  <bnoordhuis>really
21:07:49  <bnoordhuis>hah, unistd.h?
21:07:51  <indutny>or something like that
21:07:56  <indutny>I always forget it :(
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21:08:20  <indutny>yeah
21:08:23  <indutny>unistd.h has its declaration
21:08:29  <indutny>typedef __darwin_size_t size_t;
21:09:04  <bnoordhuis>well, it's wrong - size_t lives in stddef.h, the spec says so :)
21:09:05  <indutny>and many other files too
21:09:10  <indutny>gosh
21:09:11  <indutny>fucking osx
21:09:20  <indutny>it creates bad habbits
21:09:22  <indutny>ok, whatever
21:09:29  <indutny>I need clear vision on `switch` style
21:09:42  <indutny>I dislike doing cases on same indent as `switch`
21:09:49  <indutny>so probably +2 for cases and +4 for bodies
21:09:50  <bnoordhuis>i can live with indenting case statements with two spaces
21:09:50  <indutny>ok?
21:09:57  <indutny>great
21:10:02  <indutny>that's a compromise :)
21:10:06  <indutny>brb
21:10:19  <bnoordhuis>the private: public: thing is really grating to me personally btw
21:10:27  <bnoordhuis>1 space indent? who ever thought that up?
21:12:51  <trevnorris>well, that's all the documentation for the day.
21:13:10  <trevnorris>i can code for 12 hrs straight, but 2 hrs of writing docs and my brain is fried.
21:13:14  <trevnorris>man i hate english.
21:13:47  <tjfontaine>hehe, I know the feeling
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21:19:35  <tjfontaine>bnoordhuis: in other places where we don't care about the exception we tend to use the finally trick, is it worth the effort on #5951?
21:21:02  <tjfontaine>also oneday in fantasy future land we should have our json module with a streaming interface :P
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21:24:50  <bnoordhuis>tjfontaine: finally wins, right? so it'd always return '[Circular]'
21:25:26  <trevnorris>bnoordhuis: just curious, have an idea when that patch'll land in master?
21:25:29  <tjfontaine>bnoordhuis: well a temp could be used, but I don't particularly care
21:25:36  <trevnorris>that patch == const char*
21:25:54  <tjfontaine>libuv change? that happens on unstable releases generally when we do a libuv upgrade
21:26:50  <bnoordhuis>tjfontaine: oh, you mean the underscore? it's because of all that haskell recently...
21:26:58  <trevnorris>tjfontaine: so... when would that happen?
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21:28:01  <tjfontaine>trevnorris: when we decide I guess, maybe friday?
21:28:10  <trevnorris>tjfontaine: cool. thanks.
21:28:30  <bnoordhuis>we can upgrade libuv to a non-release commit in master. i don't feel particularly bad about that
21:28:43  <bnoordhuis>as long as node releases are coupled with libuv releases
21:29:15  <trevnorris>just want to land the fs patch before the next v0.11 release, but w/o a work around and comment to change after the libuv upgrade
21:29:54  <tjfontaine>bnoordhuis: try { var o = {}; o.o = o; var a = JOSN.stringify(o) } finally { return a || '[Circular]' }, I don't really know how much the catch jumps take, I just know we've attempted to do it in other places
21:29:58  <bnoordhuis>if a libuv update blocks node patches from landing, then we're Doing It Wrong
21:30:17  <bnoordhuis>tjfontaine: ugh, that's horrible
21:30:36  <tjfontaine>bnoordhuis: like I said I don't mind, I just know it's something we've done other places
21:31:16  <tjfontaine>and right we can do libuv releases and integrations anytime, in general they go with releases is all
21:31:21  <trevnorris>bnoordhuis: heh, ok. the uv patch is just so ridiculously small didn't know how you'd like to do it. :)
21:31:39  <bnoordhuis>trevnorris: let me upgrade libuv so you can land your patch
21:31:57  <trevnorris>bnoordhuis: well thanks :)
21:34:05  <MI6>joyent/node: Ben Noordhuis master * 3ff2cbc : deps: upgrade libuv to joyent/libuv@4bdb7d8 - http://git.io/6v9tDQ
21:34:29  <bnoordhuis>trevnorris: ^
21:34:40  <trevnorris>:))
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21:50:39  <bnoordhuis>tjfontaine: was that a lgtm back there btw?
21:51:51  <MI6>joyent/node: Trevor Norris master * 7ca77ea : fs: write strings directly to disk (+1 more commits) - http://git.io/WjHl3Q
21:52:01  <trevnorris>bnoordhuis: thanks much dude :)
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21:54:16  <tjfontaine>bnoordhuis: ya, lgtm, mostly because I don't think console.log should throw if we have control over the circumstances
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21:55:53  <MI6>joyent/node: Ben Noordhuis master * 2cd7adc : util: don't throw on circular %j input to format() - http://git.io/EGSUgg
21:56:40  <trevnorris>bnoordhuis: good call. i'm making the inTick optimization now. no idea why I didn't throw that in before. it's a trivial fix.
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22:00:46  <isaacs>bnoordhuis, indutny: My only opinions about source code style are these: 1) It should be consistent within a project. 2) You shouldn't have any other opinions about source code style.
22:00:56  <indutny>yep
22:00:57  <indutny>I agree
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22:09:14  <trevnorris>bnoordhuis: here: https://github.com/trevnorris/node/compare/intick-check-from-cpp
22:09:24  <trevnorris>bnoordhuis: that's the optimization you mentioned, plus one more.
22:09:43  <bnoordhuis>trevnorris: was just about sign off, if you open a pr i'll look at it tomorrow
22:09:50  <bnoordhuis>*to sign off. spelling!
22:09:57  <trevnorris>bnoordhuis: will do, thanks.
22:10:03  <bnoordhuis>have a good evening
22:10:07  <trevnorris>ditto
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22:21:37  <trevnorris>tjfontaine: not getting a build status for https://github.com/joyent/node/pull/5952 is jenkins taking a nap?
22:23:53  <tjfontaine>hmm
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22:29:19  <tjfontaine>working on the chain gang
22:29:47  <isaacs>indutny, bnoordhuis: Whatever you guys decide on C++ style, I'm fine with, as long as it can mean that we run cpplint and it passes.
22:29:55  <isaacs>oh, i guess ben is off
22:30:08  <isaacs>indutny: it sounds like we all agree that Now is The Time
22:31:40  <trevnorris>isaacs: just for kicks https://github.com/joyent/node/pull/5953
22:32:00  <trevnorris>isaacs: was a quick fix, and it just kept calling to me :)
22:32:38  <isaacs>trevnorris: oh, btw, the typedefs in the docs should be {Object}
22:32:45  <isaacs>trevnorris: with the braces, I mean
22:32:52  <trevnorris>isaacs: ah, cool. thanks.
22:33:05  <isaacs>np
22:33:10  <isaacs>makes it style up a bit prettier
22:36:21  <tjfontaine>trevnorris: btw, I will try and get an addon testsuite up and working tonight
22:36:41  <trevnorris>tjfontaine: coolio. longer you put it off, longer I can too. :)
22:36:48  <trevnorris>tjfontaine: but guess we should get those in soon
22:37:22  <tjfontaine>heh, I want to do that and review rvagg's async doc stuff so they can both be off my plate
22:37:45  <trevnorris>tjfontaine: link to async doc stuff?
22:38:08  <tjfontaine>https://github.com/joyent/node/pull/5809
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22:42:27  <mordy__>hrm, what's the normal procedure for other projects expecting a libuv "install" somewhere? -I$uvsrc/include -L$uvsrc/ ?
22:43:50  <mordy__>or some autoconf-based projects using uv would be helpful as well
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23:05:38  <MI6>joyent/node: Wyatt Preul v0.10 * 6359e01 : docs: Warning about consuming response - http://git.io/5txhTw
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23:19:47  <trevnorris>tjfontaine: just reviewed 5809
23:21:08  <tjfontaine>thanks
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23:21:29  <trevnorris>yup :)
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23:38:09  <trevnorris>tjfontaine: api question if you have the time.
23:38:35  <tjfontaine>you can ask it, I am a little async atm though
23:39:33  <trevnorris>tjfontaine: on supporting multiple external array types, if I do a copy between two different types would you expect it to copy by memory or by index?
23:39:54  <tjfontaine>hrm
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23:43:12  <tjfontaine>trevnorris: probably by memory
23:43:22  <trevnorris>tjfontaine: thank goodness. that's so much easier.
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