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00:03:01  <isaacs>piscisaureus_: i can make test-nexttick-loop-starvation still pass
00:03:41  <isaacs>piscisaureus_: because it only processes the tick queue 10 times before taking a break, and then the TickSpinnner gets it later
00:03:49  <piscisaureus_>isaacs: uhh, but doesn't it test exactly the opposite behaviour ?
00:03:58  <isaacs>piscisaureus_: it tests that you dont' starve it forever.
00:04:02  <isaacs>we just want to starve it a little bit
00:04:06  <isaacs>:)
00:04:12  <piscisaureus_>um
00:04:19  * piscisaureus_is confused
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00:04:34  <piscisaureus>isaacs: send it for review before you land it (!)
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00:04:46  <isaacs>haah
00:04:50  <isaacs>yes.
00:05:28  <isaacs>this is shaping up to be a pretty minimal change, though
00:05:39  <isaacs>just writing the test for it now
00:07:16  <isaacs>so, i don't know if this is a bug or a feature...
00:07:22  <isaacs>but it changes the stacks interestingly.
00:07:50  <isaacs> at repeat (/Users/isaacs/dev/js/node-master/test/simple/test-eio-limit.js:33:12)
00:07:53  <isaacs> at /Users/isaacs/dev/js/node-master/test/simple/test-eio-limit.js:42:5
00:07:55  <isaacs> at process.startup.processNextTick.process._tickCallback (node.js:273:9)
00:07:58  <isaacs> at process.startup.processNextTick.process._tickCallback (node.js:283:17)
00:08:00  <isaacs> at process.startup.processNextTick.process._tickCallback (node.js:283:17)
00:08:03  <isaacs> at process.startup.processNextTick.process._tickCallback (node.js:283:17)
00:08:05  <isaacs> at process.startup.processNextTick.process._tickCallback (node.js:283:17)
00:08:08  <isaacs> at process.startup.processMakeCallback.process._makeCallback (node.js:244:15)
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00:09:07  <piscisaureus>ghe
00:09:13  <piscisaureus>looks like recursion isaacs
00:09:21  <isaacs>and that process.startup.processMakeCallback.process._makeCallback will be at the root of basically every stack.
00:09:21  * hzquit (Client Quit)
00:09:29  <isaacs>piscisaureus: well, yes, it is.
00:09:46  <piscisaureus>what, why?
00:10:51  <isaacs>because it's the easiest way to keep track of how many nextTicks you are at.
00:11:13  <isaacs> if (tickDepth < process.maxTickDepth && nextTickQueue.length > 0) {
00:11:13  <isaacs> process._tickCallback();
00:11:13  <isaacs> }
00:11:21  <piscisaureus>hm
00:11:32  <isaacs>then it does tickDepth--;
00:11:40  <piscisaureus>meh
00:12:16  <piscisaureus>arbitrary stack inflation
00:12:21  <isaacs>i mean, it can be done with a loop, so sayeth turing. but it's ugly.
00:12:58  <piscisaureus>these stack traces are ugly
00:13:00  <isaacs>is it arbitrary? it's exposing the nextTick recursion as recursion.
00:13:06  <piscisaureus>besides, I don't like this arbitrary stack inflation
00:13:13  <isaacs>calling process.nextTick() in a tickCallback is ugly.
00:13:38  <isaacs>that's a fair complaint, though
00:13:43  <isaacs>like i said, i'm not sure if it's a bug or a feature.
00:14:01  <isaacs>my kingdom for a tail call :)
00:15:39  <isaacs>ok, this look better?
00:15:41  <isaacs>AssertionError: false == true at repeat (/Users/isaacs/dev/js/node-master/test/simple/test-eio-limit.js:33:12) at /Users/isaacs/dev/js/node-master/test/simple/test-eio-limit.js:42:5 at process.startup.processNextTick.process._tickCallback (node.js:274:11) at process.startup.processMakeCallback.process._makeCallback (node.js:244:15)
00:15:49  <isaacs>AssertionError: false == true at repeat (/Users/isaacs/dev/js/node-master/test/simple/test-eio-limit.js:33:12) at /Users/isaacs/dev/js/node-master/test/simple/test-eio-limit.js:42:5 at process.startup.processNextTick.process._tickCallback (node.js:274:11) at process.startup.processMakeCallback.process._makeCallback (node.js:244:15)
00:15:57  <isaacs>weird, irssi isn't pasting the lines. whatever.
00:16:03  <isaacs>https://gist.github.com/3108389
00:17:46  <piscisaureus>That'll do I supose
00:17:49  <piscisaureus>looks beter
00:17:52  <piscisaureus>process.startup.processMakeCallback.process._makeCallback
00:18:05  <piscisaureus>^-- I am sorta confused where that comes from :-)
00:19:46  <isaacs>piscisaureus: oh, that's a new V8 feature
00:19:56  <isaacs>it now names functions with the ful path to where it was defined and as what
00:21:02  <tjfontaine>ya it's cute, I enjoy it
00:23:01  <piscisaureus>Object.keys(process).filter(/./.test.bind(/^_/))
00:24:20  <piscisaureus>Regex methods should be auto bound
00:24:23  <piscisaureus>that would be nice
00:24:43  <piscisaureus>array.filter(/^bla/.test)
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00:30:43  <isaacs>piscisaureus: you need arrow functions!
00:31:05  <piscisaureus>maybe
00:31:05  <isaacs>Object.keys(process).filter((s) => s.match(/^_/))
00:31:14  <isaacs>not *quite* as short, but nice
00:31:17  <piscisaureus>That also works
00:31:21  <piscisaureus>:-)
00:31:25  <isaacs>really, it'd be good if regexps were still callables
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00:31:34  <isaacs>Object.keys(process).filter(/^_/)
00:31:36  <isaacs>that was nice
00:32:05  <piscisaureus>yeah, that would work well with filter
00:32:09  <isaacs>used to.
00:32:23  <isaacs>before V8 had to go and get all correct to the stupid spec that took away our candy.
00:33:03  <isaacs>like, it had tons of bugs and stuff, and was super slow, but i still really think pretty much every JS language innovation in MSIE (except for the activex stuff) was awesome.
00:33:16  <isaacs>like all the stuff that showed up in IE 5
00:33:30  <isaacs>innerHTML, innerText, regexp callables, it's all great stuff.
00:33:50  <piscisaureus>XMLHttpRequest :-)
00:34:08  <piscisaureus>Awkward name but the idea was quite powerful
00:34:23  <piscisaureus>^-- <3 understatements
00:36:46  <tjfontaine>heh
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00:48:26  <isaacs>yep :)
00:48:59  <isaacs>awkwarder api, too
00:49:09  <isaacs>requires buffering the entire thing
00:49:12  <isaacs>it was a time before streams.
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00:50:03  <isaacs>this patch is like speeding up just *half* of a car.
00:50:41  <isaacs>just spent the last several minutes trying to figure out how to make simple/test-process-active-wraps to pass.
00:50:44  <isaacs>just had to ad more nextTicks
00:50:48  <isaacs>they were happening too fast :)
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21:55:42  <isaacs>ircretary: tell piscisaureus Crazy idea: serial port interface in libuv.
21:55:42  <ircretary>isaacs: I'll be sure to tell piscisaureus
22:01:39  <creationix>isaacs, like adding serial support to libuv for arduino?
22:01:48  <creationix>or calling libuv apis over a serial port
22:05:09  <isaacs>creationix: like putting node-serialport into libuv
22:05:27  <isaacs>creationix: and making "talking over a serial port" a first-class thing. you'd still have to build arduino specific stuff on top of that.
22:06:08  <isaacs>i mean, it IS a pretty core systems protocol
22:07:13  <creationix>++
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22:28:43  <piscisaureus_>isaacs: not going to. Add proper extension points is something I'd like to do
22:29:04  <piscisaureus_>isaacs: serialport is not a core systems protocol. It was, in the 80s
22:29:36  <isaacs>piscisaureus_: it's kind of important for using node to drive small devices.
22:30:08  <piscisaureus_>isaacs: ATM support is pretty important for using node to drive telephony exchanges
22:30:35  <isaacs>piscisaureus_: the difference being that people actually ARE using serial port bindings to drive small devices right now in node.
22:30:57  <piscisaureus_>yeah, like, 20 people on the planet maybe
22:31:25  <piscisaureus_>there are more people using AMD than there are people doing robotics with node
22:31:35  <piscisaureus_>node-fibers is more popular than node-serialport
22:31:48  <isaacs>piscisaureus_: yeah, but it's also stupid.
22:31:51  <isaacs>and node-serialport is awesome
22:31:51  <piscisaureus_>node-libxml is wayyy more poular than that
22:32:19  <isaacs>it's not about popularity
22:32:26  <isaacs>there are a lot of ways to do flow control, or parse XML
22:32:59  <isaacs>there's basically only one way to talk to a serial port, and it maps pretty well to node's paradigms, and is a standard lowlevel systems programming interface.
22:33:12  <isaacs>piscisaureus_: btw, i was prepared to disagree with whatever you said. just playing devil's advocate here.
22:33:47  <piscisaureus_>right.
22:34:14  <piscisaureus_>the point is, I think libuv should have extension points to do these things in a reasonable way
22:34:14  <isaacs>piscisaureus_: serial ports aren't just for robots. they're also popular for talking to sensors
22:34:34  <piscisaureus_>since node-serialport is sort of backwards in its implementation
22:34:42  <isaacs>piscisaureus_: yeah, forget about that implementation
22:34:49  <isaacs>piscisaureus_: we'd rewrite it
22:34:51  <piscisaureus_>which doesn't matter in this case because you generally don't solve the S10K problem
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22:34:58  <isaacs>ahah
22:35:06  <isaacs>10,000 serial port connections?
22:35:08  <piscisaureus_>yes
22:35:17  <isaacs>who has 10k serial ports?
22:35:21  <piscisaureus_>also you don't need to pump gigabits of data through that
22:35:23  <piscisaureus_>yeah
22:35:26  <isaacs>right
22:35:32  <isaacs>the protocol is inherently very limited
22:35:36  <piscisaureus_>so it doesn't matter that it is not possible right now to do a proper implementation
22:35:36  <isaacs>by the hardware
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22:35:49  <piscisaureus_>but in general libuv should allow you to do these things the right way
22:35:50  <piscisaureus_>but
22:35:55  <piscisaureus_>I like to keep this thing lean
22:36:05  <piscisaureus_>let's focus on contemporary technologies
22:36:21  <piscisaureus_>why do we support only utf-8 and not cp-13245 ?
22:36:37  <piscisaureus_>why do we support IPV6 but not IPX nor ATM
22:36:43  <piscisaureus_>because that's all legacy crap
22:37:07  <piscisaureus_>serial ports are dead
22:37:18  <piscisaureus_>I don't know why people are still using them
22:37:38  <piscisaureus_>the last computer I owned that had one is like 10 years ago
22:38:15  <piscisaureus_>I doubt mac os 10.next will still support them
22:40:32  * rendarquit
22:40:46  <piscisaureus_>You could argue that windows is also a legacy technology
22:41:01  <isaacs>piscisaureus_: it'd be nice if it was
22:41:24  <isaacs>people use serial ports because they're very simple to attach to hardware in a very durable manner
22:41:33  <piscisaureus_>but there are still like, what, a billion computers running windows on teh world
22:41:44  <isaacs>so the controller on your helicopter thingie won't lose its connection to the motor when it crashes
22:41:48  <isaacs>or whatever
22:41:52  <piscisaureus_>isaacs: why are they not using an usb connection?
22:42:14  <isaacs>piscisaureus_: because the added speed isn't necessary, and the connections are smaller and more delicate.
22:42:19  <isaacs>so i'm told.
22:42:42  <piscisaureus_>hm, ok
22:42:56  <isaacs>also, expense
22:43:30  <isaacs>if you want to have a bunch of sensors, and replace them easily when they break, serial connections to the onboard bits are a bit cheaper.
22:44:10  <piscisaureus_>that's very surprising t me
22:44:35  <piscisaureus_>since usb is sorta ubiquitous but serial ports are very nichy nowadays
22:44:53  <isaacs>although, with sensors, i'd suspect that you'd put an antenna on them and use wifi or something, but the serialport interface is still used for flashing it.
22:44:59  <isaacs>again, this is all hearsay
22:46:19  <piscisaureus_>anwyay
22:46:32  <piscisaureus_>*anyway
22:47:18  <piscisaureus_>I have no interest in doing it.
22:47:47  <piscisaureus_>And if someone wants to then he'd better supply a damn good patch, before I'd even consider
22:51:35  <indutny>well
22:51:47  <piscisaureus_>indutny: ?
22:51:48  <indutny>lets add libuv interface to my microwave
22:51:56  <indutny>it's really popular in my family
22:52:08  <indutny>:D
22:52:24  <indutny>much more than some stupid arduino
22:56:31  <isaacs>piscisaureus_: lol https://twitter.com/piscisaureus/status/224275262282543104
22:57:06  <piscisaureus_>I am opinionated
22:57:08  <isaacs>piscisaureus_: it'd be nice if libuv made it easier to make node-serialport better.
22:57:19  <piscisaureus_>yes
22:57:25  <piscisaureus_>we can do that
22:57:29  <piscisaureus_>I want it
22:57:52  <piscisaureus_>although I wonder where the sentiment comes from
22:58:06  <piscisaureus_>I think there are very few people that realize that the implementation is not great
22:58:08  <indutny>nice ave ;)
22:58:44  <piscisaureus_>so are there many problems with it
22:58:47  <piscisaureus_>hmm
23:01:12  <isaacs>piscisaureus_: well, people using it are hardware hackers.
23:01:22  <isaacs>piscisaureus_: they're totally used to being abused in every possible way
23:01:32  <mikeal>piscisaureus_: how are serial ports "dead"
23:01:35  <mikeal>is usb dead?
23:01:43  <piscisaureus_>no, usb is not dead
23:01:59  <isaacs>yeah, can't you use node-serialport to talk over usb directly?
23:02:17  <mikeal>what do you think the S in USB is for? :)
23:02:29  <mikeal>yes, almost everyone using node-serialport is doing usb
23:02:36  <piscisaureus_>what do you thing the S in sata stands for?
23:02:48  <mikeal>stupid?
23:02:52  <mikeal>:P
23:03:34  <piscisaureus_>mikeal: so you're telling me that the thing is called serialport but in reality it is an usb driver?
23:03:49  <mikeal>USB is just fluff on top of the old serialport interface
23:04:16  <mikeal>so yeah, serialport includes support for usb, and would be pretty useless without it
23:05:20  <piscisaureus_>mikeal: so I assume you mean that these people are using devices that have an usb connector on one end of the wire, and a RS232 connector on the other end?
23:05:20  <mikeal>http://stackoverflow.com/questions/6036427/nodejs-reading-from-the-serial-port
23:05:35  <piscisaureus_>right
23:05:46  <piscisaureus_>so, umm, about this fluff story...
23:06:03  <mikeal>the os handles bringing up the device
23:06:17  <mikeal>here
23:06:31  <mikeal>lets just get Chris in here to answer these questions
23:07:08  <piscisaureus_>sure at some point
23:07:22  <piscisaureus_>I have to go offline now for a minute
23:07:28  <piscisaureus_>print stuff to get into the US tomorrow
23:07:39  <piscisaureus_>at the office
23:07:52  <mikeal>on behalf of America, i apologize :)
23:08:22  <piscisaureus_>hehe
23:08:44  <piscisaureus_>I will tell the fingerprinting guy tomorrow
23:08:53  <piscisaureus_>"Don't apologize. Mikeal already did it for ya"
23:09:22  <mikeal>"he apologizes for your countries foolish immigration policies"
23:12:22  <mikeal>if serial goes in to core it should just be called "serial"
23:12:24  <mikeal>not serial port
23:12:53  <mikeal>and if someone with ham radio library in npm called serial has a problem with it, lets kick his ass
23:13:03  <piscisaureus_>:-)
23:13:23  <piscisaureus_>don't get me wrong - all this robotics stuff is cool
23:13:31  <piscisaureus_>I like that people are doing that
23:14:10  <mikeal>i have a lot of reasons why something should not go in to core in my head, and none of them would keep something like this from going in
23:14:15  <mikeal>serialport as is would not make it
23:14:23  <mikeal>it's got deps and other crap
23:14:29  <piscisaureus_>if there is a generic way to add support for "devices", I'd be okay
23:14:36  <mikeal>but if node's job is to provide non-blocking interfaces to the OS, this counts
23:14:43  <mikeal>that's basically what serial is
23:14:56  <mikeal>we wouldn't have to add a new library for each device type
23:14:58  <piscisaureus_>but with 2 people left that can hack on libuv, and all the work that is to be done...
23:14:59  <isaacs>mikeal: it helps that the serial interface is basically a readable/writable stream ot a thing that looks kinda like a file
23:15:30  <mikeal>in linux, who knows what it looks like on windows, i didn't read that code yet
23:15:32  <piscisaureus_>well
23:15:39  <piscisaureus_>support for /dev/xxx would be neat
23:15:54  <mikeal>is /dev/xxx the porn device interface?
23:15:59  <mikeal>:P
23:16:07  <piscisaureus_>I suppose on windows it could be piggybacked to a great extent on the pipe code
23:16:28  <piscisaureus_>piscisaureus:~$ ls /dev/xxx/lesbian
23:16:43  <piscisaureus_>Error: E2MANY Too Many Files
23:16:53  <piscisaureus_>OK
23:17:14  <piscisaureus_>this interferes with the COC I suppose :-p
23:18:57  <tjfontaine>oh lord why did I change to this channel now
23:20:10  <mikeal>bad timing man
23:20:18  <tjfontaine>clearly
23:20:35  <mikeal>anyway, i would like to see require('serial') in core
23:20:44  <mikeal>var serial = require('serial')
23:21:01  <mikeal>var robot = serial('/dev/usbrobot')
23:21:13  <mikeal>where robot is a r/w stream
23:21:44  <piscisaureus_>http://www.twitter.com/kylehotchkiss/status/224282028730888192
23:21:52  <piscisaureus_>Oh no
23:22:10  <piscisaureus_>My tweet gets misinterpreted
23:22:15  <mikeal>that's what you get for using obscure math operators :)
23:22:34  <mikeal>you tweet might as well have ended with "also, i went to university"
23:22:58  <piscisaureus_>Never finished though
23:23:07  <piscisaureus_>maybe I used it improperly :-p
23:23:21  <mikeal>i think people see it as a euro with a line through it
23:23:29  <mikeal>serialport will not pay money to libuv
23:23:44  * AlbireoX_joined
23:24:16  <piscisaureus_>ghe
23:24:54  <piscisaureus_>Generic support for pollable "files" can go into libuv
23:25:54  <piscisaureus_>ircretary: tell bnoordhuis http://piscisaureus.no.de/libuv/2012-07-14#23:24:54.309
23:25:55  <ircretary>piscisaureus_: I'll be sure to tell bnoordhuis
23:26:17  <piscisaureus_>if serial ports are sufficiently well behaved they will be lucky
23:26:22  * hzquit
23:26:53  <piscisaureus_>anyway, papers printing time. See you guys later
23:26:57  * piscisaureus_quit (Quit: ~ Trillian Astra - www.trillian.im ~)
23:27:50  * paddybyers_joined
23:29:51  * paddybyersquit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
23:29:52  * paddybyers_changed nick to paddybyers
23:42:32  <davisp>Anyone know where uv__run_check is defined? I sure can't find it with grep
23:44:52  <davisp>Ah, src/unix/loop-watcher.c, macro definition
23:51:32  * paddybyersquit (Quit: paddybyers)