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08:05:34  <hareth>hello
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18:31:21  <hij1nx>hello
18:33:14  <nlf>howdy
18:33:19  <hij1nx>hi
18:33:22  <kid_icarus>hey
18:33:27  <hij1nx>ola
18:35:13  <hij1nx>all this joking aside, nlf your github hooks module is perfect. have got so much mileage out of that thing!
18:36:03  <hij1nx>rvagg rvagg rvagg rvagg rvagg rvagg rvagg rvagg rvagg rvagg rvagg rvagg rvagg rvagg rvagg rvagg rvagg rvagg rvagg rvagg rvagg rvagg rvagg rvagg rvagg rvagg rvagg rvagg rvagg rvagg rvagg rvagg rvagg
18:36:07  <hij1nx> rvagg
18:37:19  <hij1nx>if no one cares, im going to tear the TUI out of lev, blessed just doesn't work on *most* terminals.
18:41:52  <nlf>haha thanks
18:43:58  <hij1nx>but im -1 on your Riak PR, vclocks/replication related things make really good modules, and I don't think Riak solves this problem perfectly. I'd prefer to see more node modules solving this problem and not having a commerical database product become the easy-go-to
18:44:24  <nlf>the pull request to levelup?
18:44:36  <hij1nx>er, i'll put that on gh, too easy to lose track of in IRC
18:44:50  <nlf>sure, but that's just one use case
18:45:15  <hij1nx>nlf: what are some other use cases for supporting a specific commerical database?
18:45:30  <nlf>the whole point of the pull request is to allow sending metadata along with a value in leveldown interfaces
18:45:43  <nlf>not just for riak, but for all leveldown compatible modules
18:46:34  <hij1nx>why not just use leveldown?
18:46:47  <hij1nx>levelup is just a little sugar on top of leveldown
18:47:10  <hij1nx>if you need to send something to leveldown, lighten your stack a little and just bypass levelup completely
18:47:13  <nlf>i suppose you could, but some of that sugar is useful and reimplementing it is silly
18:47:26  <hij1nx>ah!
18:47:58  <hij1nx>nlf: I would say that is a good case for breaking levelup into smaller components
18:48:33  <nlf>that could very well be the case
18:48:57  <hij1nx>nlf: levelup is just a biproduct of what seemed right to do in the early days, leveldown is where the real goodness is
18:49:33  <hij1nx>nlf: especially for a lib author
18:49:44  <nlf>i wouldn't be opposed to julien's solution of allowing leveldown backends to return an arbitrary array of data either
18:50:06  <nlf>but allowing for a metadata object to be passed back and forth was the simplest solution that didn't require rearchitecting
18:50:45  <nlf>and i agree, the leveldown modules is where the real value is
18:51:16  <nlf>but without levelup, there's some high level stuff that you have to reimplement that ends up just being a waste of time when it's already *right there*
18:51:22  <hij1nx>nlf: yeah, i think that would be fine too, with the consideration that not all backends will agree, but it just seems like the path-of-least-resistence would be to use leveldown :)
18:51:38  <nlf>sure, of course all backends won't agree
18:51:47  <nlf>but since it's just an extra argument, it's completely backwards compatible
18:51:51  <hij1nx>nlf: what kind of stuff do you think is most valueable from levelup?
18:52:01  <hij1nx>nlf: yeah, agreed
18:53:21  <nlf>levelup takes care of things like key and value encoding/decoding, which is nice
18:53:29  <nlf>it's also a unified place for validation and error handling
18:55:04  <hij1nx>nlf: perfect for modules ;)
18:55:22  <hij1nx>level-errors, level-encoding
18:55:32  <nlf>you may be right
18:55:44  <nlf>if that pull request doesn't get merged to levelup, that may be the approach we take
18:55:52  <nlf>just abstract levelup out of the equation and be happy
18:56:08  <nlf>i'd just hate to cause fragmentation over such a minor thing, you know?
18:56:45  <hij1nx>well, its tough to say what fragmentation would be in this case
18:57:07  <hij1nx>on one hand; level-* is almost entirely fragmented
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18:57:15  <hij1nx>on the other; there is a small core
18:57:31  <nlf>sure, but other level-* modules are dependent on levelup
18:57:36  <hij1nx>imo, levelup is just a popular front end for leveldown (the more important project)
18:57:42  <nlf>so we'd have to have modules to provide all that behavior
18:58:32  <hij1nx>yeah. hmm. but a project you are specifically working on is to make levelup work with Riak?
18:58:55  <hij1nx>goodness i hate commerical databases with a passion
18:59:01  <hij1nx>:D
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19:20:10  <nlf>hij1nx: yup, cause in production we like availability and fault tolerance
19:20:14  <nlf>and it's hard to get that elsewhere
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19:27:23  <fritzy>hij1nx: Riak is apache2
19:27:49  <fritzy>why the hate?
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20:16:34  <hij1nx>Riak is apache2, but its a commerical initiative
20:17:26  <jerrysv>riak pays the salary of several of my friends
20:17:27  <hij1nx>riak is one of many means to availability and fault tolorance
20:17:36  <hij1nx>jerrysv: thats nice
20:17:45  <jerrysv>hij1nx: it really is :)
20:17:51  <hij1nx>jerrysv: very good :)
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20:18:44  <rescrv>hij1nx: what's wrong with a commercial initiative?
20:19:58  <hij1nx>rescrv: depends on how you make your money
20:20:21  <jerrysv>lots of consulting services, i think on their end
20:20:24  <hij1nx>rescrv: look at mongo
20:22:48  <hij1nx>commercial initiatives in databases usually end up compromising the integrity of the product that the company is trying to sell
20:23:34  <rescrv>hij1nx: like buggy code to drive support contracts? I don't see how you owtherwise can pay developers to develop. Even leveldb is sponsored by a big company.
20:23:39  <hij1nx>companies need to make money, so if all they are focused on is a database, they are likely to push for one-size-fits-all solutions that can cast a wide net into the market
20:24:04  <hij1nx>leveldb is an project, not a product
20:24:46  <rescrv>I think it suffers for that. Upstream is very difficult to push patches into, and so some big problems go unfixed.
20:25:37  <hij1nx>yeah, i think a lot of people have been attracted to other competing projects inside google
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20:27:17  <hij1nx>i just like single/purpose focused things.
20:28:12  <hij1nx>if riak was more kernel like and offered a bunch of modules that you could pull together easily (like nodejs+leveldb) i would like it more. but i think they are trying to sell something that works for everyone, and i don't believe in frameworks or magic bullets
20:30:07  <hij1nx>mainly, i think frameworks/maigc-bullets don't work because when the complexity of a problem exceeds the original design of the solution it was meant to fit in, you need to start pushing upstream, and that's really hard
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20:31:40  <hij1nx>leveldb is nice and small, therefore we get really nice things like hyperdex, rescrv was even able to build a nice little product on top of their fork, i wouldn't want to fork riak and build a product on top of that
20:34:10  <jerrysv>hij1nx: one thing to remember is that they make their money via consulting around the database engine itself
20:34:21  <hij1nx>yeah
20:36:02  <hij1nx>fwiw im speaking as someone who's working lower in the stack, so things like riak don't appeal to me. but there is totally an argument *for* black-boxes and larger, all-accommodating products, especially when you don't have unique use cases
20:36:47  <jerrysv>hij1nx: especially when you're TLA government agencies
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20:37:23  <hij1nx>jerrysv: sure, some of them don't do *any* engineering, they just want to run a process and talk nice to it
20:37:25  <jerrysv>hij1nx: you aren't coming out for cascadiajs, are you?
20:37:36  <jjmalina>fwiw riak is built out of different components like riak_kv, riak_ensemble, riak_dt, though all in erlang of course
20:37:37  <hij1nx>jerrysv: i wish, it looks really good
20:37:58  <jerrysv>hij1nx: yup yup, same thing my company offers them
20:39:05  <hij1nx>jjmalina: i don't write any erlang day-to-day, although i like it i really only do C/C++ and node/js
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20:40:04  <hij1nx>jjmalina: athough i like some of the concepts in erlang a lot
20:40:22  <jjmalina>i barely know any erlang. something to learn at some point
20:40:58  <hij1nx>jjmalina: i would but have gone more into it but... rustlang
20:41:49  <hij1nx>i wanted to pick up go, but its type system isn't as well thought out as rust's #imho
20:42:38  <jjmalina>yeah i feel the same way about go. ended up using interface{} everywhere
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20:43:11  <jjmalina>so rust seems interesting
20:47:11  <hij1nx>fritzy: anyway, finding hyperdex/warp perfectly acceptable and riak not probably just makes me a jerk :D
20:49:06  <hij1nx>oh, no i remember now why I don't like riak
20:50:31  <hij1nx>i had a riak representitive come by and try to sell me their system, he was super nice but told me how enterprise-riak worked, i think i decided it was over-engineered
20:54:20  <hij1nx>wow, im really surprised that there are only ~1700 stars on https://github.com/basho/riak
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21:14:27  <fritzy>@hij1nx yeah, that sounds annoying.
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23:50:01  <hij1nx>fritzy: have you thought about contributing to any of the node based replication projects instead of depending on riak?
23:50:22  <fritzy>yes
23:50:28  <fritzy>in addition to
23:51:58  <fritzy>I'm working on dulcimer being a way to use various backends in a consistent way
23:52:54  <hij1nx>the readme is blank
23:53:23  <hij1nx>oh i see, dulcimer not level-dulcimer
23:53:37  <fritzy>yeah https://github.com/fritzy/dulcimer
23:53:55  <hij1nx>oh its an orm
23:54:07  <hij1nx>oh very ambitious
23:54:39  <hij1nx>wow features
23:55:07  <fritzy>haha, yeah, quite a few
23:55:34  <fritzy>@hij1nx you might find https://github.com/fritzy/level-2i/blob/master/index.js interesting
23:56:19  <fritzy>need to clean it up and give it its own README
23:56:34  <fritzy>separate tests outside of dulcimer, etc
23:58:20  <fritzy>only just finished breaking everything into its own modules out of dulcimer 2 weeks ago, and then stepped away from the keyboard for 2 weeks
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