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| <hareth> | hello |
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| 18:31:21
| <hij1nx> | hello |
| 18:33:14
| <nlf> | howdy |
| 18:33:19
| <hij1nx> | hi |
| 18:33:22
| <kid_icarus> | hey |
| 18:33:27
| <hij1nx> | ola |
| 18:35:13
| <hij1nx> | all this joking aside, nlf your github hooks module is perfect. have got so much mileage out of that thing! |
| 18:36:03
| <hij1nx> | rvagg rvagg rvagg rvagg rvagg rvagg rvagg rvagg rvagg rvagg rvagg rvagg rvagg rvagg rvagg rvagg rvagg rvagg rvagg rvagg rvagg rvagg rvagg rvagg rvagg rvagg rvagg rvagg rvagg rvagg rvagg rvagg rvagg |
| 18:36:07
| <hij1nx> | rvagg |
| 18:37:19
| <hij1nx> | if no one cares, im going to tear the TUI out of lev, blessed just doesn't work on *most* terminals. |
| 18:41:52
| <nlf> | haha thanks |
| 18:43:58
| <hij1nx> | but im -1 on your Riak PR, vclocks/replication related things make really good modules, and I don't think Riak solves this problem perfectly. I'd prefer to see more node modules solving this problem and not having a commerical database product become the easy-go-to |
| 18:44:24
| <nlf> | the pull request to levelup? |
| 18:44:36
| <hij1nx> | er, i'll put that on gh, too easy to lose track of in IRC |
| 18:44:50
| <nlf> | sure, but that's just one use case |
| 18:45:15
| <hij1nx> | nlf: what are some other use cases for supporting a specific commerical database? |
| 18:45:30
| <nlf> | the whole point of the pull request is to allow sending metadata along with a value in leveldown interfaces |
| 18:45:43
| <nlf> | not just for riak, but for all leveldown compatible modules |
| 18:46:34
| <hij1nx> | why not just use leveldown? |
| 18:46:47
| <hij1nx> | levelup is just a little sugar on top of leveldown |
| 18:47:10
| <hij1nx> | if you need to send something to leveldown, lighten your stack a little and just bypass levelup completely |
| 18:47:13
| <nlf> | i suppose you could, but some of that sugar is useful and reimplementing it is silly |
| 18:47:26
| <hij1nx> | ah! |
| 18:47:58
| <hij1nx> | nlf: I would say that is a good case for breaking levelup into smaller components |
| 18:48:33
| <nlf> | that could very well be the case |
| 18:48:57
| <hij1nx> | nlf: levelup is just a biproduct of what seemed right to do in the early days, leveldown is where the real goodness is |
| 18:49:33
| <hij1nx> | nlf: especially for a lib author |
| 18:49:44
| <nlf> | i wouldn't be opposed to julien's solution of allowing leveldown backends to return an arbitrary array of data either |
| 18:50:06
| <nlf> | but allowing for a metadata object to be passed back and forth was the simplest solution that didn't require rearchitecting |
| 18:50:45
| <nlf> | and i agree, the leveldown modules is where the real value is |
| 18:51:16
| <nlf> | but without levelup, there's some high level stuff that you have to reimplement that ends up just being a waste of time when it's already *right there* |
| 18:51:22
| <hij1nx> | nlf: yeah, i think that would be fine too, with the consideration that not all backends will agree, but it just seems like the path-of-least-resistence would be to use leveldown :) |
| 18:51:38
| <nlf> | sure, of course all backends won't agree |
| 18:51:47
| <nlf> | but since it's just an extra argument, it's completely backwards compatible |
| 18:51:51
| <hij1nx> | nlf: what kind of stuff do you think is most valueable from levelup? |
| 18:52:01
| <hij1nx> | nlf: yeah, agreed |
| 18:53:21
| <nlf> | levelup takes care of things like key and value encoding/decoding, which is nice |
| 18:53:29
| <nlf> | it's also a unified place for validation and error handling |
| 18:55:04
| <hij1nx> | nlf: perfect for modules ;) |
| 18:55:22
| <hij1nx> | level-errors, level-encoding |
| 18:55:32
| <nlf> | you may be right |
| 18:55:44
| <nlf> | if that pull request doesn't get merged to levelup, that may be the approach we take |
| 18:55:52
| <nlf> | just abstract levelup out of the equation and be happy |
| 18:56:08
| <nlf> | i'd just hate to cause fragmentation over such a minor thing, you know? |
| 18:56:45
| <hij1nx> | well, its tough to say what fragmentation would be in this case |
| 18:57:07
| <hij1nx> | on one hand; level-* is almost entirely fragmented |
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| 18:57:15
| <hij1nx> | on the other; there is a small core |
| 18:57:31
| <nlf> | sure, but other level-* modules are dependent on levelup |
| 18:57:36
| <hij1nx> | imo, levelup is just a popular front end for leveldown (the more important project) |
| 18:57:42
| <nlf> | so we'd have to have modules to provide all that behavior |
| 18:58:32
| <hij1nx> | yeah. hmm. but a project you are specifically working on is to make levelup work with Riak? |
| 18:58:55
| <hij1nx> | goodness i hate commerical databases with a passion |
| 18:59:01
| <hij1nx> | :D |
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| 19:20:10
| <nlf> | hij1nx: yup, cause in production we like availability and fault tolerance |
| 19:20:14
| <nlf> | and it's hard to get that elsewhere |
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| 19:27:23
| <fritzy> | hij1nx: Riak is apache2 |
| 19:27:49
| <fritzy> | why the hate? |
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| 20:16:34
| <hij1nx> | Riak is apache2, but its a commerical initiative |
| 20:17:26
| <jerrysv> | riak pays the salary of several of my friends |
| 20:17:27
| <hij1nx> | riak is one of many means to availability and fault tolorance |
| 20:17:36
| <hij1nx> | jerrysv: thats nice |
| 20:17:45
| <jerrysv> | hij1nx: it really is :) |
| 20:17:51
| <hij1nx> | jerrysv: very good :) |
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| 20:18:44
| <rescrv> | hij1nx: what's wrong with a commercial initiative? |
| 20:19:58
| <hij1nx> | rescrv: depends on how you make your money |
| 20:20:21
| <jerrysv> | lots of consulting services, i think on their end |
| 20:20:24
| <hij1nx> | rescrv: look at mongo |
| 20:22:48
| <hij1nx> | commercial initiatives in databases usually end up compromising the integrity of the product that the company is trying to sell |
| 20:23:34
| <rescrv> | hij1nx: like buggy code to drive support contracts? I don't see how you owtherwise can pay developers to develop. Even leveldb is sponsored by a big company. |
| 20:23:39
| <hij1nx> | companies need to make money, so if all they are focused on is a database, they are likely to push for one-size-fits-all solutions that can cast a wide net into the market |
| 20:24:04
| <hij1nx> | leveldb is an project, not a product |
| 20:24:46
| <rescrv> | I think it suffers for that. Upstream is very difficult to push patches into, and so some big problems go unfixed. |
| 20:25:37
| <hij1nx> | yeah, i think a lot of people have been attracted to other competing projects inside google |
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| 20:27:17
| <hij1nx> | i just like single/purpose focused things. |
| 20:28:12
| <hij1nx> | if riak was more kernel like and offered a bunch of modules that you could pull together easily (like nodejs+leveldb) i would like it more. but i think they are trying to sell something that works for everyone, and i don't believe in frameworks or magic bullets |
| 20:30:07
| <hij1nx> | mainly, i think frameworks/maigc-bullets don't work because when the complexity of a problem exceeds the original design of the solution it was meant to fit in, you need to start pushing upstream, and that's really hard |
| 20:31:13
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| 20:31:40
| <hij1nx> | leveldb is nice and small, therefore we get really nice things like hyperdex, rescrv was even able to build a nice little product on top of their fork, i wouldn't want to fork riak and build a product on top of that |
| 20:34:10
| <jerrysv> | hij1nx: one thing to remember is that they make their money via consulting around the database engine itself |
| 20:34:21
| <hij1nx> | yeah |
| 20:36:02
| <hij1nx> | fwiw im speaking as someone who's working lower in the stack, so things like riak don't appeal to me. but there is totally an argument *for* black-boxes and larger, all-accommodating products, especially when you don't have unique use cases |
| 20:36:47
| <jerrysv> | hij1nx: especially when you're TLA government agencies |
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| 20:37:23
| <hij1nx> | jerrysv: sure, some of them don't do *any* engineering, they just want to run a process and talk nice to it |
| 20:37:25
| <jerrysv> | hij1nx: you aren't coming out for cascadiajs, are you? |
| 20:37:36
| <jjmalina> | fwiw riak is built out of different components like riak_kv, riak_ensemble, riak_dt, though all in erlang of course |
| 20:37:37
| <hij1nx> | jerrysv: i wish, it looks really good |
| 20:37:58
| <jerrysv> | hij1nx: yup yup, same thing my company offers them |
| 20:39:05
| <hij1nx> | jjmalina: i don't write any erlang day-to-day, although i like it i really only do C/C++ and node/js |
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| 20:40:04
| <hij1nx> | jjmalina: athough i like some of the concepts in erlang a lot |
| 20:40:22
| <jjmalina> | i barely know any erlang. something to learn at some point |
| 20:40:58
| <hij1nx> | jjmalina: i would but have gone more into it but... rustlang |
| 20:41:49
| <hij1nx> | i wanted to pick up go, but its type system isn't as well thought out as rust's #imho |
| 20:42:38
| <jjmalina> | yeah i feel the same way about go. ended up using interface{} everywhere |
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| <jjmalina> | so rust seems interesting |
| 20:47:11
| <hij1nx> | fritzy: anyway, finding hyperdex/warp perfectly acceptable and riak not probably just makes me a jerk :D |
| 20:49:06
| <hij1nx> | oh, no i remember now why I don't like riak |
| 20:50:31
| <hij1nx> | i had a riak representitive come by and try to sell me their system, he was super nice but told me how enterprise-riak worked, i think i decided it was over-engineered |
| 20:54:20
| <hij1nx> | wow, im really surprised that there are only ~1700 stars on https://github.com/basho/riak |
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| <fritzy> | @hij1nx yeah, that sounds annoying. |
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| 23:50:01
| <hij1nx> | fritzy: have you thought about contributing to any of the node based replication projects instead of depending on riak? |
| 23:50:22
| <fritzy> | yes |
| 23:50:28
| <fritzy> | in addition to |
| 23:51:58
| <fritzy> | I'm working on dulcimer being a way to use various backends in a consistent way |
| 23:52:54
| <hij1nx> | the readme is blank |
| 23:53:23
| <hij1nx> | oh i see, dulcimer not level-dulcimer |
| 23:53:37
| <fritzy> | yeah https://github.com/fritzy/dulcimer |
| 23:53:55
| <hij1nx> | oh its an orm |
| 23:54:07
| <hij1nx> | oh very ambitious |
| 23:54:39
| <hij1nx> | wow features |
| 23:55:07
| <fritzy> | haha, yeah, quite a few |
| 23:55:34
| <fritzy> | @hij1nx you might find https://github.com/fritzy/level-2i/blob/master/index.js interesting |
| 23:56:19
| <fritzy> | need to clean it up and give it its own README |
| 23:56:34
| <fritzy> | separate tests outside of dulcimer, etc |
| 23:58:20
| <fritzy> | only just finished breaking everything into its own modules out of dulcimer 2 weeks ago, and then stepped away from the keyboard for 2 weeks |
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