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03:00:24  <nog3>So if I'm reading this right, levelup in nodejs will iterate through leveldb keys in order of creation from that key onwards?
03:00:32  <nog3>Via streams
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03:13:56  <substack>nog3: in order of keys
03:14:02  <substack>keys are sorted in lexicographical order
03:14:07  <nog3>Ahh, ok
03:15:05  <nog3>Given levelup lets me shove json into a leveldb key I might just leverage that instead :)
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03:16:49  <nog3>Thanks substack
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03:20:45  <pluma>How does leveldb work wrt parallelism/concurrency on the server? If it's disk-backed, won't there be race conditions if multiple writes occur simultaneously?
03:25:27  <rvagg>pluma: writes are handled by a single thread but they can be pushed into the write queue by multiple threads
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03:25:38  <rvagg>pluma: if you want higher write performance consider hyperleveldb
03:25:50  <rvagg>.. or perhaps rocksdb but we don't have solid perf numbers on that yet
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03:26:21  <pluma>So I should have leveldb as a server in its own single process?
03:26:39  <pluma>Or do they cooperate when there's several processes?
03:27:07  <rvagg>pluma: no, only one process at a time with leveldb, if you want to write from multiple processes then you'll need to set up a central process to handle writes from other processes
03:27:09  <rvagg>or use lmdb
03:27:16  <pluma>Ah, alright.
03:27:17  <rvagg>multiple threads within a single process is fine
03:27:54  <pluma>How is LMDB related to leveldb?
03:28:07  <rvagg>pluma: are you using node or coding directly against leveldb?
03:28:12  <pluma>Node.
03:28:26  <rvagg>pluma: ok, then http://ghub.io/lmdb
03:28:37  <rvagg>it's an alternative leveldown-compatible backend that you can stick behind levelup
03:28:55  <rvagg>looks the same from the front but has a completely different storage back-end and it can handle multi-process access
03:29:09  <rvagg>but it's a bit more complicated and not as battle-hardened (the node bindings at least)
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03:36:19  <pluma>Ah, okay.
03:36:39  <pluma>Thanks, I think I'll stick with a central process then.
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04:51:30  <hij1nx>pluma: the way i do it is create a process outside my app and rpc to it with a module called multilevel from @juliangruber, works quite well.
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05:28:18  <rvagg>that too
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08:37:52  <xh-free>hi, is anybody there?
08:39:21  <xh-free>Is there any finish event on the ReadStream?
08:39:35  <xh-free>I'm using level in node.js
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08:52:12  <xh-free>oh, i know this, it has 'end' event! :)
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12:34:48  <levelbot>[npm] memdb@0.1.0 <http://npm.im/memdb>: LevelUp + MemDown (@juliangruber)
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16:21:18  <levelbot>[npm] level-live-stream@1.4.8 <http://npm.im/level-live-stream>: Stream live changes from levelup. (@dominictarr)
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16:39:49  <levelbot>[npm] level-manifest@1.2.0 <http://npm.im/level-manifest>: describe a levelup plugin for remote access (@dominictarr)
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18:58:40  <rescrv>rvagg: I'm going after those corruption issues you've been hitting. Any other live specimens? The most recent one was not the original problem
18:59:01  <mikeal>rvagg: hey, what times work well for doing NodeUp?
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19:44:49  <levelbot>[npm] level-secondary@1.1.0 <http://npm.im/level-secondary>: Secondary indexes for leveldb. (@juliangruber)
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19:54:18  <levelbot>[npm] level-sec@1.2.0 <http://npm.im/level-sec>: High-level API for creating secondary indexes (@juliangruber)
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21:59:00  <kenansulayman>rescrv i dont mean to overly disrupt your nerves ._. but any updates on hyperdex + node? :D
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22:03:14  <rescrv>kenansulayman: Java first. We keep punting node because the userbase is uncertain. Node folks generally like rolling their own (look at all the hash rings built on level), and when we announced HyperDex bindings the first time around, not one person actually used them, played with them, or even acknowledged them.
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22:04:15  <kenansulayman>Oh, I understand. It's pretty complicated tho to expect traction with no word of mouth
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22:05:11  <kenansulayman>When I had a quick talk on k/v's & level here in berlin quite some people didn't even know there where NoSQLs different from Mongo, Redis & Couch
22:05:38  <kenansulayman>s/where/were/
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22:15:49  <rescrv>kenansulayman: We're trying to fight that. Our marketing team is our engineering team, so we don't have time to go evangelize like others. I believe Mongo/Redis pay more for marketing than most.
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22:23:53  <kenansulayman>rescrv Sounds like a plan, good luck until we cross ways ;)
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22:26:42  <rescrv>kenansulayman: I know you're interested in HyperDex + node. Do you have an idea how many other people would be interested too? It seems like most people are running things on a single box for which leveldb provides enough throughput.
22:28:14  <rvagg>rescrv: the sample is pretty skewed, the kinds of people in here are not your average node users, I'm sure there'd be plenty of interest
22:30:17  <brycebaril>rescrv: I'd venture to say there is a rather large Node+Mongodb userbase out there that might really like something like HyperDex. This particular irc channel is not too representative of node as a whole
22:32:12  <kenansulayman>rescrv I can't give assumptions on that since I don't know people around using highly sophisticated storage engines; also as rvagg says, this is a distorted sample of the Node userland
22:32:42  <kenansulayman>Though I'd love to see that perspective change
22:32:46  <rescrv>rvagg brycebaril: I did a survey of what makes noise on some of the social media. It seemed that the node+level community are most active in evangelizing. node+mongo or node+redis all see less genuine activity.
22:33:12  <rescrv>Even though the node+level community is different, it's the group I'd want to convert, and most seem to be satisfied (props there).
22:33:18  <rvagg>yeah, we're good at noise, but in production you'll find way more deployments of node+mongo
22:33:21  <rvagg>+redis everywhere
22:34:12  <brycebaril>rescrv: I maintain node_redis and can confirm its use is very, very widespread
22:36:28  <rescrv>brycebaril: are most people satisfied with Redis?
22:36:40  <rvagg>very
22:36:50  <rvagg>it's considered a standard tool in the toolbox for web deployments
22:36:56  <rvagg>coupled with a "proper" database
22:37:08  <rescrv>ah, so people use it in the caching role, not the storage role
22:37:15  <rvagg>most people are using redis for caching, queuing, messaging etc.
22:37:21  <rvagg>so it's redis+something else
22:37:43  <rescrv>brycebaril: any idea what that "something else" typically is?
22:37:44  <brycebaril>yeah, some people use it for storage, but it generally isn't suitable for large-scale storage.
22:37:44  <rvagg>I think redis persistence is widely considered to be kind of garbage .. ?
22:38:21  <brycebaril>rescrv: I'd estimate mongodb is #1 based on support queries in #node.js but I don't have numbers
22:38:33  <rescrv>rvagg: they've not sorted their story on replication and such
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22:38:40  <rescrv>last I heard they were trying the raft algorithm
22:38:42  <brycebaril>rvagg: yeah, redis persistence is backstop-only. core decision to never serve data from disk
22:39:06  <rvagg>mongo is amazingly popular amongst node users, possibly because it's got nice JS stuff, also their evangelism seems to have had some impact; amongst the "elite" it tends to get a bit snarled at but that doesn't seem to deter the masses
22:39:36  <rvagg>mongo are making a very heavy push to be in the standard node story for the enterprise
22:39:52  <brycebaril>mongo is easy to use and deceptively fast. people generally find out later how much technical debt they just bought
22:40:13  <rvagg>I think most mongo deployments don't actually end up being very big so it doesn't really matter that much
22:40:18  <brycebaril>yeah
22:40:22  <rescrv>brycebaril: yeah, it's costly
22:40:24  <rvagg>it's used by people who dream that their web thing will be the next twitter
22:41:11  <brycebaril>back to redis & replication -- it's had async master->slave replication forever, current focus is cluster features (hence the raft algo)
22:41:18  <rescrv>rvagg: largest one I know about is a startup with a ~700TB data set. That's roughly 75TB with 9x replication
22:41:49  <rvagg>rescrv: if you can make a hyperdex interface that's leveldown compatible so we can plug all our level* stuff on top of it then that would be attractive to the crowd here, you have a lot of influential node people in here but I think we're largely considered to be early-adopters of untested technologies!
22:42:06  <rescrv>rvagg: the problem with leveldown is the read-stream interface
22:42:31  <rvagg>leveldown exposes that as an iterator, just with .next() and .end()
22:42:34  <brycebaril>rescrv: it's really just a cursor on the back-end
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22:42:37  <rvagg>mm
22:42:38  <rescrv>from what I understand, it's general enough that people will find it easy to shoot themselves in the foot with overly-general queries
22:43:23  <rvagg>yeah, ideally you'd want to carve out a user base of people who want to use hyperdex for what it offers, we're a fickle crowd in here that are likely to switch out backends if it doesn't satisfy!
22:43:29  <brycebaril>ahh, well, yeah. without specifying ranges it's equivalent to SELECT * FROM all_tables
22:43:56  <rescrv>rvagg: that'd probably be the route I'd look at first. Maybe pick a subset of features and try to satisfy that set 100%. I'm only guessing that it may be problematic. I don't actually know for sure.
22:44:16  <rvagg>couchbase are starting to make a stronger push into node-land, their libcouchbase is used as the core connector for all their language drivers, their node layer is relatively thin on top of that but it's improved in quality a lot of late
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22:47:40  <rvagg>rescrv: if you want to see the popularity of the various databases then it might be best to look at download counts of their main drivers on npmjs.org
22:48:09  <rvagg>or nodei.co where I put them in a pretty graph format and make it easier to look up
22:48:31  <rvagg>https://nodei.co/npm-dl/redis.png
22:49:03  <rvagg>https://nodei.co/npm-dl/mongodb.png
22:49:34  <brycebaril>also https://nodei.co/npm-dl/mongoose.png -- more fragmentation on mongo clients out there
22:49:37  <rvagg>https://nodei.co/npm-dl/mongoose.png <-- object mapping for mongo, surprisingly popular but it tells you about the kinds of people/projects using it
22:49:59  <rvagg>https://nodei.co/npm-dl/mysql.png
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22:50:21  <rvagg>https://nodei.co/npm-dl/couchbase.png growing
22:51:50  <rvagg>https://nodei.co/npm-dl/mssql.png - JS only, https://nodei.co/npm-dl/msnodesql.png - from microsoft, but that's a nasty bit of software and a lot of people are probably going to compile it from source rather than download from npm
22:52:02  <rvagg>of course mssql users are in a separate world to everyone else so can be ignored
22:52:49  <rvagg>https://nodei.co/npm-dl/pg.png - postgres has a lot of fans these days, particularly their new native json support has been popular
22:53:10  <jerrysv>i wrote a mongo clone on top of postgres
22:53:18  <brycebaril>rvagg: living right near Redmond it is amazing the imaginary world the developers here live in wrt Microsoft.
22:53:37  <brycebaril>they seem to think that just because everyone *they* meet uses windows that the entire world must.
22:54:51  <rvagg>https://nodei.co/npm-dl/riak-js.png I think that might be the most popular riak connector? surprisingly low activity
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23:01:38  <rvagg>jerrysv: you used the native json encoding to do a mongo? how far did you get?
23:02:01  <rvagg>jerrysv: that'd actually be a neat way to wean people off mongo, there's a lot more technical credit given to postgres out there than mongo
23:03:27  <rescrv>jerrysv: how complete was your mongo clone?
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23:07:43  <jerrysv>rescrv: not fully complete, but close - i need to add ensureIndex
23:07:49  <jerrysv>rvagg: yes, natice
23:07:59  <jerrysv>see https://github.com/jerrysievert/mongolike
23:08:05  <jerrysv>brb, need to do some network tests
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23:09:39  <jerrysv_>ok, back
23:10:01  <jerrysv_>rvagg: still uses SELECT ... but works fairly well
23:10:18  <jerrysv_>see http://legitimatesounding.com/blog/building_a_mongodb_clone_in_postgres_part_1.html
23:10:26  <jerrysv_>and http://legitimatesounding.com/blog/building_a_mongodb_clone_in_postgres_part_2.html
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23:10:46  <rvagg>jerrysv_: you need to keep working on that! that could be a popular way out for people looking to switch
23:10:57  <jerrysv_>rvagg: yeah, it's just been a matter of timing :)
23:11:06  <rvagg>yeah, I know how that goes ...
23:11:10  <jerrysv_>i've received some pull requests, and someone is using it in production, apparently
23:11:15  * jerrysv_changed nick to jerrysv
23:11:16  <rvagg>hah, neat
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23:12:17  <rvagg>rescrv: you might want to consider getting something basic in to npm with the "hyperdex" name before someone comes along with a garbage driver implementation, it's bound to happen
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23:13:01  <rvagg>a blank package is possible but generally frowned upon, but since you're a legitimate owner of the name you'd probably win any disputes if you were to just do that
23:13:57  <jerrysv>rvagg: i got suckered into a vowsjs rewrite while at cascadiajs, will hopefully have time again as soon as that's done, or maybe over the xmas holiday
23:14:39  <rescrv>rvagg: I can understand wanting to keep the name. I'll look into registering it, but don't want to cause a dispute.
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23:15:45  <rvagg>rescrv: I can't say I've actually heard of a proper dispute, but there are procedures in place for it if/when it happens
23:16:25  <rvagg>heh, "holy grail" https://twitter.com/dshaw/status/405112197946163201
23:16:52  <jerrysv>gee thanks rvagg, you just made my twitters blow up again
23:17:28  <rvagg>jerrysv: consider it a prod to keep on developing, you've obviously touched on a potentially popular combination
23:20:32  <rvagg>rescrv: http://hyperdex.org/doc/latest/WritingClientBindings/ - empty, you need to get writing!
23:20:42  <rescrv>rvagg: yup! That page is a reminder
23:20:46  <rvagg>rescrv: I'd consider getting you started if I had a clue
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23:21:39  <rescrv>rvagg: if you could point me to docs for converting data types and describe an idiomatic API, that'd be a great start. Even if you just do an example or two, I know what to shoot for.
23:21:50  <rescrv>Otherwise you'd end up with smoething that may feel out of place
23:22:19  <rvagg>rescrv: http://nodejs.org/docs/latest/api/addons.html is the normal place to start, downloadable here with a little bit of extra code: https://github.com/rvagg/node-addon-examples
23:22:52  <rvagg>rescrv: tho it's changing for 0.12 because V8 is changing, so add https://github.com/rvagg/nan to your reading list, there's some small example code in there plus the test suite is being fleshed out slowly
23:23:06  <rescrv>is leveldown 0.12 compatible?
23:23:15  <rvagg>rescrv: yes because it uses nan
23:23:29  <rescrv>so I should use nan too
23:23:57  <rvagg>rescrv: yes, the alternative is still in development https://github.com/tjfontaine/node-addon-layer but it's worth consideration if you'd like to write in pure C
23:24:24  <rvagg>rescrv: and V8 docs of course: http://izs.me/v8-docs/
23:24:29  <rvagg>you'll need that...
23:25:15  <rescrv>rvagg: thanks!
23:25:31  <rescrv>I'll save this convo in hopes that node pops up on our priorities list.
23:26:09  <rvagg>rescrv: projects to bookmark to go fishing for examples: https://github.com/rvagg/node-leveldown/ https://github.com/rvagg/node-libssh/ (a bit of a mess), https://github.com/rvagg/node-max31855pi (very simple!), https://github.com/JustinTulloss/zeromq.node, https://github.com/einaros/ws (the main websockets lib for node, uses NAN)
23:26:17  <rescrv>I'm also interested by jerrysv's work on mongo over postgres. Might be nice to port the mongo API to something else that cares about your data...
23:26:29  <rvagg>heh, indeed
23:26:51  <rvagg>it's getting lots of twitter love atm so it's struck a chord
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23:30:30  <rescrv>holy shit, scttnlsn has to be within 3 miles of me
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