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10:55:25  <`slikts>tzaeru: koa-router@next worked, thanks
10:59:33  <`slikts>would be nice if it was in the router readme, though
11:16:26  <tzaeru>well it's mentioned in using koa2 in koa's readmes.
11:16:41  <tzaeru>that you should install middleware with the next flag
11:16:56  <tzaeru>but I do suppose it could as well be mentioned in middleware's readmes too :P
11:26:41  * SuperHansquit (Remote host closed the connection)
11:29:00  * mezodjoined
11:32:12  <`slikts>or @next should just be the default since koa2 is released
11:32:42  <`slikts>also, I don't understand how to use koa-router since the docs are all for koa 1
11:33:46  <jammi>the docs are in the other branch
11:34:11  <jammi>last time I installed koa-router, koa2 support was still at the @next
11:38:44  <`slikts>k, thanks
11:39:53  <jammi>even though koa2 itself has been the default koa for a while
11:40:07  <jammi>not sure if those modules are even properly maintained anymore
11:40:21  <`slikts>I guess it shows that they aren't
11:40:46  <`slikts>koa itself has blatant typos in the readme
11:40:47  <jammi>I mean dropped vs just slow
11:41:02  <`slikts>"Koa is a middleware framework that can take 3 different kinds of functions as middleware"
11:41:03  <jammi>and yes, documentation is crap all around
11:41:14  <`slikts>except it shows just functions/async functions
11:41:45  <`slikts>and the examples links lead me to koa 1 examples
11:42:10  <jammi>maybe there's some other express alternative getting all the attention?
11:42:23  <`slikts>I would like to know that too, but nothing really stood out
11:43:48  <`slikts>I'm considering just using reactify
11:43:57  <`slikts>err, restify
11:44:01  * mezodquit (Remote host closed the connection)
11:45:01  <jammi>well, I got my stuff going but I basically had to crawl through the small amounts of stuff using koa to understand how to use it
11:45:50  <jammi>and yet there was a lot of confusion with code for koa1 vs koa2; I never used koa1
11:45:52  <`slikts>that's what happens when the lead switches to a different language :)
11:46:27  <jammi>I'm suspecting it'll be the same thing again for koa3
11:47:02  <jammi>so maybe the option is to write yet another http broker library
11:47:26  <jammi>(the solution)
11:47:59  <jammi>and maybe stick with just promises and nothing else as its api
11:48:07  <`slikts>I wish the stars would show in this page: http://nodeframework.com/
11:48:47  <`slikts>jammi: maybe consider using CSP instead
11:49:09  <`slikts>just promises alone are kind of a low level primitive
11:49:29  * TheThingjoined
11:49:31  <jammi>I didn't like rails when I was doing ruby backends and I don't think I'll like any rails-like things either
11:49:55  <`slikts>rails didn't stand the test of time, yeah
11:50:18  <jammi>it wasn't really up to the task originally either
11:50:30  * mezodjoined
11:50:39  <`slikts>ruby didn't help either
11:50:59  <jammi>I was done writing html responders years before rails was out
11:51:42  <jammi>and it seemed like that was the thing it was written for
11:52:41  <jammi>ruby per se isn't that bad, but the focus on rails was bad
11:53:11  <jammi>and the way rails influenced people to write rails-like "magic" metaprogramming stuff
11:53:19  <`slikts>it's just slow
11:53:55  <jammi>yes, but it's also easy to optimize using C extensions for the small parts of code requiring a lot of execution time
11:54:33  <`slikts>still better to just not be slow in the first place :)
11:55:56  <jammi>well, it's a side-effect of its features
11:56:22  <jammi>and there are many implementations of it, some not being as slow in certain areas as others
11:58:58  <jammi>but the way async and event-driven was always kinda the default thing in js certainly helps. ruby, python and such were implemented in an era where computers had a single cpu, soft-threads were the easy thing to do and sleeping was the thing to do for pausing execution
11:59:58  <`slikts>computers also had cup holders back then
12:00:21  <jammi>yes, and polling with busy loops was the way to implement animations and such
12:00:43  <jammi>energy-saving/heat wasn't an issue; just add a bigger heatsink and fan
12:01:01  <`slikts>the fancy ones had two cup holders
12:01:38  <jammi>yes, but you couldn't use them both simultaneously
12:01:43  <`slikts>poor design
12:01:51  <jammi>poor design all around
12:02:01  <`slikts>afaik python is making a mess of their coroutines
12:02:10  <jammi>but people back then didn't know of anything better either
12:02:19  <`slikts>complicating it with multiple event loops, multiple implementations, etc.
12:02:35  <jammi>I had to go back to python last year in a project. I endured it for a little less than three months
12:03:12  <jammi>it was such a pita all around and slooowwww
12:03:56  <jammi>plus the "old" developers there apparently didn't have a clue about writing maintainable code either
12:04:26  <jammi>and testing was basically a guy clicking through stuff and keeping track of issues in excel
12:04:55  <`slikts>I think that goes beyond what you could blame python for :)
12:06:27  <jammi>maybe, but it didn't make things less of a pita either, especially since they were stuck with 2.7 and google's app engine shit
12:06:35  <`slikts>ew
12:07:08  <jammi>so testing more or less had to be click-through stuff for a large part
12:09:01  <`slikts>turns out a lot of the frameworks in http://nodeframework.com/ are abandoned
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12:09:13  <`slikts>no updates for years, defunct websites
12:10:08  <jammi>generally an issue with the node ecosystem
12:10:25  <jammi>stuff gets done partially, then released, then abandoned shortly afterwards
12:10:50  <`slikts>it's a doggie dog world
12:11:23  <jammi>and you have to search for the needles in the haystack, which often means it'd have been faster writing your own, but then it's probably the source of the state of the ecosystem; people doing just that and then abandoning their shit once they move on to the next job or project
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12:12:17  <`slikts>on the other hand, a lot of things get tried out, and some of them turn out to be good
12:12:20  <jammi>and the long-supported things get riddled with feature bloat to the point they no longer serve their original purpose
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12:14:15  <jammi>like "hey, I wrote this thing that does exactly what it's supposed to and does it quickly and its api is neat and documented in one page" -> a few years later: "umm, this thing can't be described in five pages but it does all kinds of stuff, most of them quite poorly"
12:16:10  <`slikts>as always, the solution is to replace humans with AI
12:16:26  <jammi>or alternatively (most of the time): "this thing no longer works and it seems it was abandoned at a time when it was receiving a complete rewrite"
12:16:42  <`slikts>humans should just write the specs for the AI to implement, if even that
12:16:58  <jammi>eventually it'll be that way
12:17:38  <`slikts>then the complaint will be that humans can't be trusted to handle writing the specs either
12:18:16  <`slikts>I mean, you can't trust people to know what they want
12:18:19  <jammi>yes, or that the AI makes bugs that can't be reproduced and screw things over occasionally, but it's not like anyone knows how to write code either
12:19:23  <TheThing_>I like how much trust you guys put into computers
12:19:25  <jammi>at least at the level required at that time, like 2000 man-years to write a simple boilerplate to interface with the then-current hardware
12:20:01  <`slikts>computers, they just work
12:20:07  <TheThing_>hahahaha
12:20:08  <TheThing_>adorable
12:20:09  <jammi>everything in-between already being AI-implemented stuff for as long as everyone has been alive
12:20:13  <`slikts>humans are flakey, fickle things
12:20:36  <jammi>maybe the hardware itself will be dynamically adapted by the AI to perform logic specifically for its functions
12:20:45  <TheThing_>walk up to next sysadmin and ask him if "computers just work" (spoiler: they don't)
12:21:06  <TheThing_>there's a reason cloud exists
12:21:07  <`slikts>TheThing_: they generally do
12:21:08  <jammi>TheThing_: it's the humans at fault 99.99% of the time
12:21:15  <TheThing_>there's a reason we have quad-redundancy
12:21:25  <TheThing_>computers are finicky beings
12:21:36  <jammi>and even the remaining 0.01% is typically just some human overlooking a detail in hardware implementation
12:22:06  <jammi>causing something to wear down, overheat or whatnot
12:24:08  <`slikts>the thing about hw is that you can have redundancy if required, keep things going forever if you just have spares and power
12:24:27  <`slikts>while humans have planned obsolescence
12:24:45  <TheThing_>you guys are funny
12:24:54  <TheThing_>but I should stop talking and get to work
12:25:43  <TheThing_>I don't wanna argue with people leaning to the left
12:26:57  <`slikts>aw yes this clearly is a US partisan issue
12:28:04  <TheThing_>tell me I'm wrong that you guys aren't liberals?
12:28:15  <TheThing_>I'd love to be proven wrong
12:29:36  <`slikts>it's fine, go back to your playpen
12:29:50  <TheThing_>called it
12:29:56  <`slikts>I can live without your insight into teh libruls
12:30:16  <TheThing_>I love it when I'm right ^_^
12:30:25  <TheThing_>*correct
12:31:06  <`slikts>more like a jumped up partisan dipshit
12:39:07  <tzaeru>LAWD
12:39:10  <tzaeru>that above discussion
12:39:27  <tzaeru>basically went like, "AIs are cool" -> "that's what libtards would say!"
12:39:40  <tzaeru>congratulations, there must be somekind of a prize out there for this level of quality :D
12:40:06  <TheThing_>you skipped a step inbetween
12:40:42  <TheThing_>two steps actaully
12:40:45  <TheThing_>*actually
12:40:55  <tzaeru>and I'm archiving the hell out of this and pasting it literally everywhere I can :D
12:41:01  <tzaeru>best thing I've seen on the intternets in a long time
12:43:56  <TheThing_>if you're posting this around the internet, can you censor my name please?
12:44:12  <`slikts>feeling a bit of shame?
12:44:30  <TheThing_>shame of what?
12:45:50  <TheThing_>I'm asking as a courtesy please. I've seen how a conversation gets taken out of context and blown up way out of proportion.
12:46:17  <tzaeru>I can do that if I paste it further, though I already pasted a few snippets around before I noticed your request, sorry.
12:47:15  <TheThing_>that's fine, it's the thought that counts :)
12:49:58  * SuperHansquit (Remote host closed the connection)
12:50:11  <TheThing_>I should probably change nicks on freenode, might be a bad idea to use my github username
12:50:22  * TheThing_changed nick to NTT
12:50:39  * NTTchanged nick to n_tt
12:50:44  <tzaeru>meh, I use same nick literally everywhere, my real life name is totally trackable, my hometown is, even my phone number
12:50:58  <n_tt>yeah, my nick as well
12:52:14  <jammi>tzaeru: same here. I just rather avoid being an asshole regardless
12:53:17  <tzaeru>I can understand hiding the identity if there's a specific reason to fear persecution, but I'm quite rowdy and am foreseeing zero problems like ever :P anonymousity can be a bad thing in the long term
12:55:05  <n_tt>I'm hoping so as well with the zero problems. I can be assholish at times (which is the best way to chat online, be the smug asshole) but at least I'm not calling out everyone here being idiots or finicky :b
12:56:15  <n_tt>besides, I made a shot at the guys and they responded with "You're an asshole" and "dipshit" and I'll take that as my win of the day
12:56:16  <tzaeru>in my view, you implicitly did.
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12:57:10  <n_tt>uhh... oh I think I see what you mean
12:57:25  * SuperHansjoined
12:58:36  <n_tt>yeah I don't make the connection of liberal = idiot or left-leaning = idiot or anything like that. Hell I have some of the greatest respect for many people who are and I'd never interpret that label as something mean or anything. In case people got that idea.
12:59:02  <`slikts>being an asshole is one thing, turning a tongue in cheek discussion of tech into a US partisan issue is mouthbreather territory
12:59:03  <n_tt>I'm just happy I could call someone's political alignment based on their position on AI
12:59:51  <tzaeru>I know a lot of economically liberal, morally somewhat-conservative people who are all about the upcoming singularity and shit like that. I don't think political views really correlate that strongly here.
13:00:08  <jammi>n_tt: except you probably didn't
13:00:09  <tzaeru>what probably has more of a correlation is simply tech people, particularly tech people who use emerging new tech.
13:00:12  <`slikts>also hilarious to consider 'left-leaning' to be an insult or something that you can call people out for
13:00:43  <tzaeru>sounds like a very american thing to do :P
13:00:53  <n_tt>I actually live in Iceland
13:01:00  <n_tt>but we also have left and right people here
13:01:09  <`slikts>tzaeru: now that's an insult on americans
13:01:43  <`slikts>lol europeans radicalized by us politics is even worse
13:01:47  <n_tt>I never meant left-leaning to be an insult. I've never interpreted it as that. If you did then I'm sorry mate, that wasn't my objective.
13:01:47  <tzaeru>`slikts, well public discussion there is still unusually much polarized between strong anti/pro stances and people using terms like "liberal" as insults and stuff
13:01:48  <jammi>n_tt: in many other places, there are more than left and right, and neither are typically liberal, nor libertarian
13:02:01  <n_tt>true jammy
13:02:03  <n_tt>*jammi
13:02:14  <n_tt>that's a shame
13:02:19  <n_tt>^ to tzaeru
13:03:16  <`slikts>tzaeru: right, but most americans are not wingnuts
13:03:25  <jammi>tzaeru: it's just a classic fallacy of "I don't like brog-glogs, and since I don't like what you say, you must be a brog-glog"
13:03:35  <tzaeru>no one here would "call someone out" as being a liberal, what liberal even means is somewhat dependant on context. here liberal in economical sense usually refers to the opposite from what it seems to be usually used for in USA..
13:03:45  <n_tt>^
13:03:48  <n_tt>same here in Iceland
13:03:55  <n_tt>liberal here has a different meaning than in USA
13:04:11  <n_tt>I didn't know liberal was a mean word for Americans
13:04:15  <n_tt>or bad word
13:04:17  <jammi>tzaeru: yeah, liberal here means basically the same as libertarian means is US
13:04:30  <n_tt>I'd seen it used a lot of times, I just thought it was to describe where people fall on the political scale
13:04:34  <tzaeru>liberal in usa apparently is roughly equivalent with socialist economics, vs here liberal economics is usually considered right-wing economics, i.e. strong ownership rights, weak taxing, weak government.
13:04:54  <`slikts>tzaeru: wouldn't that be neo-liberal then
13:05:03  <tzaeru>idk.
13:05:06  <n_tt>man I hate your nick `slikts, it's so hard to type that stupid backwards comma in Icelandic keyboard
13:05:08  <tzaeru>depends so much on context :P
13:05:16  <`slikts>n_tt: fix your layout then
13:05:20  <tzaeru>n_tt, on most clients you don't need to to tabcomplete
13:05:28  <`slikts>or get a better client
13:05:34  <tzaeru>irssi tabcompletes just fine if I start writing from s
13:05:40  <n_tt>I still need to type first letter to tab complete
13:05:40  <`slikts>backticks are common characters in JS and markdown
13:05:49  <n_tt>I know
13:05:51  <`slikts>n_tt: your client is shit
13:05:56  <`slikts>and your keyboard layout is shit
13:06:02  <jammi>as are all of the basic ascii characters between 64 and 127
13:06:05  <n_tt>don't you be talking mean shit about my limechat, I will sent my mama to beat you up
13:06:17  <n_tt>*send
13:06:44  <jammi>I type on a dvorak layout I've customized for the characters I commonly use in writing
13:06:52  * mezodquit (Remote host closed the connection)
13:07:24  <jammi>but since most of the stuff I write are either code or shell commands, the rest of the characters are behind modifier keys
13:07:31  <`slikts>I'll deal with your mama like the Spartans did with Persian ambassadors
13:07:37  <n_tt>that was a slight digress, anyways, if you slikts and jammi think where your political siding has nothing to do with your real life, then I'm sorry to say but it's not true. Left and right are simplistic terms to describe how certain people opinion on certain key elements are and that also affects you professionally and personally.
13:08:08  <n_tt>Isn't Iceland the spartans in this scenario?
13:08:12  <n_tt>Iceland is only like 300k people
13:08:39  <jammi>n_tt: so your country of 300k people is small enough to divide left and right to be for or against AI's?
13:08:43  <n_tt>we're the smaller guys, we're the ones that should be kicking poeple down the well
13:08:47  <`slikts>there's like 1.5mln of my people as well
13:09:08  <jammi>which certainly could be possible, but won't apply to larger groups of people
13:09:12  <`slikts>or 2 even
13:09:46  <n_tt>jammi: Ahh, you're mistaken, I made that guess not based on your opinion on AI but on your opinion on humans although those two go kinda hand-to-hand.
13:10:02  <n_tt>so basically, you're the big dude country and I'm the small guy spartans
13:10:05  <`slikts>n_tt: the point that eludes you is that it wasn't even a serious discussion
13:10:10  <n_tt>I think it's pretty clear who the spartans is at this point slikts
13:10:23  <n_tt>although I probably shouldn't be advocating to be sparts this much, didn't they lose in the movie?
13:10:31  <`slikts>they got rekt
13:10:36  <n_tt>yeah
13:10:39  <n_tt>I concede this point
13:10:42  <n_tt>you can be the Spartans
13:11:32  <jammi>n_tt: I don't trust humans with solving complex logic issues, but it's hardly a political opinion
13:12:52  <jammi>and probably doesn't align in the conservativeness scale either, although many extreme conservatives would just love to go back to the dark middle ages
13:12:58  <n_tt>Isn't every political opinion a complex logic issue? I digress, I'm lying in bed, typing on my keyboard when I should be getting breakfast and getting to work
13:13:40  <`slikts>jammi: the 'train of thought' here is to just ascribe disagreeable opinions to a strawman of the other side
13:13:49  <tzaeru>in my view most political opinions really boil down to just a few fundamental questions to which we have the same answers for most of our lives.
13:13:50  <`slikts>so it's those silly libcucks not understanding AI
13:14:11  <n_tt>woah woah woah woah woah
13:14:15  <n_tt>HOLD THE PHONES
13:14:24  <n_tt>async is now native in node 7.6?
13:14:56  <jammi>yes, as are many other es7 things
13:14:59  <`slikts>n_tt: are you sure you're not a libcuck, it's been supported for a while now
13:15:00  <tzaeru>questions such as, "should human selfishness be strongly checked or not?" or "is my race/nation inheretently better than others'?"
13:15:08  <n_tt>no idea what libcuck is
13:15:26  <n_tt>OMG IT'S HERE, ASYNC/AWAIT IS HERE, BRBBBQ IT'S HACKING TIME
13:15:28  <tzaeru>of course almost no one would actually admit that "yeah I think my country is really the best and thus it's ok we do stuff that hurts others but benefits us" right away, but lots of people still secretly think so.
13:16:30  <`slikts>tzaeru: the crux of the issue imo is seeing the world in a zero-sum vs a possibly positive-sum game
13:16:33  <tzaeru>whole political agendas build on just a few core questions like that. we just interpolate.
13:17:14  <`slikts>it makes much more sense to shit on others in a zero-sum game
13:17:18  <n_tt>just to throw in the last point, I actually think the left and the right deviate from one source point: Do we trust people or not. Do we trust them to make good decisions and/or be smart in general. Most people on the left will say, "no, we can't trust people/companies/corporate so we have to put laws to protect our future" where-as most right will go "yes, I think people are inherently good and smart and we don't need regulations to contr
13:17:18  <n_tt>ol our life." That's at least my theory and so far it hasn't been completely off
13:17:28  <n_tt>BUT I GOTTA GO AND CODE IN ASYNC/AWAIT I WANNT THIS IN MY LIFE
13:17:32  <n_tt>COME TO BED NODE
13:17:36  <tzaeru>`slikts, I think it's really more just about who we consider to belong to the same "tribe".
13:17:37  <n_tt>TIME TO START HACKING BITCHES!
13:17:52  <`slikts>tzaeru: that plays into it but I don't think it's the crux
13:18:06  <tzaeru>for some people, finding empathy for anyone who looks different or speaks differently is just too much.
13:19:02  <tzaeru>this capacity for empathy probably characterizes like half of our political beliefs :P
13:19:08  <`slikts>tzaeru: it's not even about empathy; it'd still make sense to supprot leftist policies just from a self-interest point of view in a positive-sum game
13:19:28  <tzaeru>yeah, but that isn't the only question, the empathy stuff.
13:19:35  * n_ttquit (Quit: Fuck yeah, async/await in node 7.6, bring in the hacks)
13:19:38  <tzaeru>and it alone doesn't instantly lead to left or right
13:20:19  <jammi>I don't think it's about empathy
13:20:21  <tzaeru>but you combine a few questions like that and there you go, now more or less have the whole political stance
13:20:32  <jammi>most people act purely out of perceived self-interest
13:21:04  <tzaeru>you can view empathy too as a tool for self-interest.
13:21:32  <tzaeru>I'd actually go far enough to say that empathy is probably the single most important thing that has faciliated human success to this level.
13:22:09  <jammi>empathy is probably something we benefited from while domesticating the dog
13:22:28  <tzaeru>uh no, empathy is what let us form closely connected packs to begin with :P
13:22:34  <tzaeru>without of which we'd never had any success in anything
13:22:45  <jammi>it's missing in the other apes and was probably required for domesticating animals successfully
13:23:10  <tzaeru>no it isn't missing
13:23:20  <`slikts>tzaeru: I don't think political worldviews are that closely related to the biological underpinnings
13:23:28  <tzaeru>various levels of empathy are observable in lots of animals, just none on the human level as they lack similarly complex social bonding
13:24:04  <tzaeru>`slikts, I think there's a strong correlation, but it's not the sole foundation for the political views
13:24:14  <jammi>tzaeru: being aware of someone being aware, being able to simulate complex things like "are you seen or not?"
13:24:47  <jammi>humans and dogs instinctively know the meaning of eye contact; "you're seen". the other apes don't have that
13:25:01  <tzaeru>lots of apes have that :P
13:25:13  <`slikts>you could still be an emphatetic person and prioritize your own group due to seeing the world as zero-sum
13:25:20  * mekwalljoined
13:25:24  <tzaeru>https://phys.org/news/2016-10-apes.html
13:25:53  <jammi>tzaeru: in that case, which do? at least chimps, gorillas don't have it. the best they have is seeing someone's face, which isn't empathy
13:26:04  <jammi>they don't have the eye cue
13:26:15  <`slikts>that's slander
13:29:23  <tzaeru>jammi, chimpanzees, bonobos and orangutans were shown to have some capacity to overcome the false belief test
13:29:56  <tzaeru>i.e. showing behavioural change in accordance to knowing that someone thinks of something as true even when it isn't
13:31:40  <tzaeru>though that's like the strictest possible definition for empathy. if we widen the definition to include any behavioural changes according to feelings shown by other animals, then basically all pack animals would have empathy. where the line goes between behaviorism and emotional capacity is a bit problematic to properly assess, but we do know that some animals only react in an empathical fashion to their own pack members and ...
13:31:46  <tzaeru>... family members.
13:31:59  <tzaeru>or lots of animals, actually, even some birds :P
13:32:17  <jammi>tzaeru: there's controversy about that study
13:32:54  <jammi>especially since chimps are unable to follow human gaze
13:33:29  <tzaeru>well, regardless, it's quite clear that human capacity for empathy has hugely helped in forming larger groups and maintaining social structure
13:33:29  <jammi>even ones that have spent their entire life with humans
13:34:05  <jammi>forming larger groups and maintaining social structure is observed in many animals
13:34:11  <jammi>hardly a proof of empathy
13:34:17  <tzaeru>I didn't say that, sigh
13:34:46  <tzaeru>now you've gone to the point of just making shit up no matter what I actually say anymore, so I'll quit here.
13:50:53  <`slikts>you're both wrong
13:52:16  <jammi>I don't even know what we're discussing anymore
13:58:06  <`slikts>identity politics
13:59:05  <jammi>yeah, it's actually something I don't really identify with
13:59:17  <`slikts>what, apes?
13:59:40  <jammi>but it's probably because all the politics are quite far from my identity
13:59:44  <`slikts>I'm sure that's some kind of an -ism
14:00:55  <jammi>we have some election here soon, but the candidates are all within some 40-60% score vs my own opinions (100% would agree to everything I agree to)
14:01:11  <`slikts>jammi: gotta start your own party
14:01:43  <jammi>and the top scores of them may have the lowest scoring candidates within the same party
14:02:19  <jammi>`slikts: wouldn't be a successful party
14:02:50  <jammi>I only enter competitions to win
14:03:36  <jammi>and there's no way of winning an election with my views, because I'm fairly misanthropic
14:03:57  <`slikts>just need to sugarcoat it the right way
14:04:08  <`slikts>do like the racists and call it 'realism'
14:04:15  <`slikts>and use dogwhistles
14:05:54  <jammi>to win in politics is to hold no opinion on anything concrete, just appear to support intangiable things supported by almost everyone
14:06:37  <jammi>and when asked directly, misdirect that question by answering with just intangible things
14:06:57  <jammi>or just speak a lot but don't say anything. it'll confuse most interviewers
14:08:20  <jammi>another would be to object everything in case people go with "the enemy of your enemy is your friend", but I don't think most would follow that either
14:09:50  <jammi>every tangible thing you support will subdivide support further, though, until you have no support
14:10:55  <jammi>supporting "the enemy of your enemy" thing seems to be the way to go though, judging by brexit and trump
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14:11:21  <`slikts>'librul tears' is the most noble of policy goals
14:11:28  * SuperHansjoined
14:11:37  <`slikts>clearly the way to run a society
14:19:00  <tzaeru>jammi, that's completely non-true.
14:19:29  <tzaeru>but yeah, it's unfortunate how many people feel alienated by politics nowadays.
14:20:18  <jammi>tzaeru: what is?
14:20:38  <tzaeru>that you'd need to have no concrete opinions to "win" in politics.
14:20:54  <tzaeru>right now I guess there's a lot of populist non-concrete rhetoric being used to fish for lots of votes
14:21:05  <tzaeru>but it's not nearly always like that
14:21:31  <jammi>a mix of opposing everything the status quo stands for, yet having no tangible opinions is clearly the way
14:22:53  <tzaeru>the current largest parties here might be a bit like that, but there's a noticable opposition with regionally large municipal seat shares with some actual concrete opinions
14:24:05  <tzaeru>also I've no idea how you've wound up with only like ~50% of shared opinions with our parties. I wind up with a range of 40 to 100%.
14:24:13  <tzaeru>but I guess it depends on municipality a bit
14:25:39  <tzaeru>I guess what's kinda missing is a party with liberal ethical stances and economically minimal government stances.
14:26:00  <jammi>easy: I disagree with roughly half the things of every candidate
14:26:22  <tzaeru>how's that even possible when the candidates themselves disagree with each other from 0 to 100% :P
14:26:35  <jammi>tzaeru: not on everything
14:26:52  <jammi>they tend to be fairly similar; they're not a random group
14:28:14  <tzaeru>I've literally had other candidates show up with like only 2 answers on same side of yes/no scale out of 35 questions.
14:28:17  <jammi>for instance, I hate kids as much as people in general; basically all candidates are like "think of the kids" in one way or another
14:30:07  <jammi>like, in my opinion almost all the issues of the society come from the basic fact that there's too much people and reproducing or importing more from elsewhere due to non-exponential reproduction rates makes things worse
14:30:12  <tzaeru>if you generally hate people why are you even talking here?
14:30:29  <`slikts>tzaeru: on the off chance that you're a dog
14:30:46  <jammi>because I love technology
14:31:00  <`slikts>on that topic, what's a nice example of a koa2 app?
14:31:08  <tzaeru>jammi, lol, okay, I'm just calling this out here, that's absolutely retarted. if you don't support say, children's education, you are really not combating overpopulation, actually the opposite, since the poorly educated procreate more.
14:31:12  <jammi>and I don't hate many other species
14:31:25  <`slikts>jammi: what about other taxa
14:31:50  <jammi>because most species are quite harmless
14:32:07  <tzaeru>if you want to combat overpopulation, I'd suggest supporting children's education and rights. that's the most pragmatical way to go about it
14:32:54  <`slikts>do you hate any genus?
14:34:14  <jammi>tzaeru: yes, and guess how that goes with candidates supporting health care
14:35:11  <jammi>besides, the children's indoctrination concentration camps are about education only by popular incentive
14:35:12  <tzaeru>also the whole overpopulation thing is overexaggerated, world's not massively overpopulated.
14:35:21  <tzaeru>there are issues in wealth and resource distribution however.
14:35:34  <tzaeru>but world could def harbor this many people if we went about smartly with land use and resource sharing
14:35:50  <`slikts>I hate the eukaryota kingdom
14:35:58  <`slikts>single-celled organisms are fine, though
14:36:07  <jammi>tzaeru: we're talking about roughly algerian living standards then
14:36:15  <jammi>if all resources are divided equally, that is
14:37:11  <`slikts>jammi: pretty sure that's false
14:37:17  <tzaeru>probably more like portuguese standards.
14:37:31  <tzaeru>there's a lot of excess generated constantly
14:37:47  <`slikts>and a simplistic view in any case; who really can tell what the world would be like without all the waste
14:37:50  <jammi>probably less than algerian now though, since there's hundreds of millions more of people since I did the calculations
14:37:53  <tzaeru>jammi, what "indoctrination concentration camps"? :DD
14:38:05  <`slikts>jammi: your calculations are crap
14:38:09  <jammi>tzaeru: so-called schools
14:38:12  <tzaeru>LOL
14:38:14  <tzaeru>dklspaåkdsåa
14:38:18  <jammi>`slikts: provide your own then
14:38:21  <tzaeru>how old are you, like, 15?
14:38:24  <tzaeru>aahahahahah
14:38:27  <jammi>40
14:38:31  <tzaeru>:D right
14:38:44  <jammi>and like I said, you can look it up
14:39:07  <`slikts>jammi: the whole idea of calculating that is simplistic
14:39:24  <tzaeru>you're talking of a country with globally some of the best ranked schools and highest levels of democracy and some of the most liberal views on education and raising children there are
14:39:31  <tzaeru>and you're comparing it to concentration camps
14:39:33  <tzaeru>you're a complete joke
14:39:40  <tzaeru>I'm outta here ->
14:39:45  <jammi>`slikts: just ppp and divide that by the size of the population
14:39:55  <`slikts>jammi: ^ simplistic
14:40:11  <jammi>tzaeru: you're unable to form arguments and just go with ad hominem
14:41:34  <jammi>a billion humans or so would be sustainable and mostly by "western" standards
14:41:51  <jammi>and would give a little living room for other species as well
14:41:54  * tzaerupart
14:44:08  <jammi>the things about sustaining more than the current population assumes things like destroying or "developing" the entire surface area of the planet for human consumption, including all the seas for algae-food for humans
14:44:34  <jammi>and honestly, I don't think that's what anyone really wants
14:45:28  <jammi>similarly for the current population by "portugese" avegare living standards
14:45:35  <jammi>*average
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15:00:30  <`slikts>bold claims based on back of a napkin calculations
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15:02:03  <jammi>I've had this discussion before
15:02:15  * mezodjoined
15:02:33  <`slikts>not really a discussion, just me mocking you
15:03:17  <jammi>the size of the population is basically unustainable unless you turn the entire planet into a farm in a way that gets rid of most other lifeforms
15:03:37  <jammi>which is basically the content of the studies suggesting what you claim
15:03:51  <jammi>I've read many of them
15:05:26  <`slikts>it gets more true every time you repeat it
15:05:36  <`slikts>try putting it in allcaps as well
15:06:33  <jammi>`slikts: so that's your "argument"?
15:07:10  <jammi>you're just repeating what some feelgooders told you
15:07:21  <`slikts>jammi: did you think appealing to 'many studies' deserves a serious response?
15:07:27  <jammi>oh the naivity
15:09:51  <`slikts>tfw when your bug-eyed claims don't get the respect they obviously deserve
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