00:19:18  * ender`quit (Quit: Documentation is like sex: when it's good, it's very good, and when it's bad it's still better than nothing.)
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02:55:26  * Gunnijoined
02:58:35  <Gunni>hi
03:00:30  * piscisaureus_joined
03:08:05  <Gunni>is coapp actually functional?
03:16:07  <Gunni>see, i got the installer, ran it, and right after elevation, it said it's installed, i got confused, looked for it, found it nowhere, clicked uninstall, reran the installer with procmon watching, found the "Installer.xxxx.exe" but it didn't actually do anything, just read a bunch of stuff and then said it's installed....
03:16:11  * Gunniis confused
03:24:46  <jgmdev>Gunni, I think coapp is a command line application (im new also :D)
03:25:46  <Gunni>yeah well i can use those, but i can't find the .exe, found it on github but that one fails aswell
03:26:22  <Gunni>weird
03:26:31  <Gunni>looks so interesting
03:27:15  * gixquit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
03:28:51  <Gunni>FearTheCowboy are you there?
03:29:33  * piscisaureus_quit (Quit: ~ Trillian Astra - www.trillian.im ~)
03:30:00  <FearTheCowboy>Yeah, I'm here
03:30:49  <FearTheCowboy>There's not a ton you can do today; we're just about to release our RC (Tuesday) at which point we'll be rebuilding all the packages
03:31:30  * gixjoined
03:32:00  <FearTheCowboy>the coapp tools that get installed is just the command line; the gui for browsing for packages should be done sometime late june.
03:33:03  <Gunni>FearTheCowboy where is it installed, what file path?
03:33:29  <FearTheCowboy>it's techincally installed to c:\program files\outercurve foundation\coapp....
03:33:37  <FearTheCowboy>you can also see it at c:\apps\coapp
03:33:44  <FearTheCowboy>or c:\programdata\coapp
03:33:53  <FearTheCowboy>it's also in the PATH
03:34:02  <FearTheCowboy>c:\> coapp list
03:34:10  <Gunni>oh there it is
03:34:16  <Gunni>wasn't in path last time i tried :P
03:34:27  <Gunni>sweet
03:35:20  <FearTheCowboy>coapp install http://coapp.org/devtools
03:35:31  <FearTheCowboy>will install the only other package that's available right now.
03:35:41  <FearTheCowboy>everything else should be back online next week
03:35:43  <Gunni>oh just one?
03:35:51  <Gunni>lol and that even errors
03:35:56  <Gunni>Error: Alternative
03:36:25  <Gunni>aw
03:36:52  <FearTheCowboy>yeah, we rewrote a ton of the backend code in the last 4 weeks, the error messages haven't gotten fixed up yet.
03:37:44  <Gunni>btw why did you make that shortcut(?) in c:\?
03:38:27  <Gunni>it just shortcuts to C:\ProgramData
03:38:29  <FearTheCowboy>lol
03:38:50  <Gunni>seems pointless
03:38:59  <FearTheCowboy>Yeah, months ago we used c:\apps a lot, after we moved our composition stuff into c:\programdata I was typing c:\apps a lot still..
03:39:07  <Gunni>lol
03:39:20  <FearTheCowboy>and on xp, programdata is in c:\documents and settings\all users\....
03:39:26  <FearTheCowboy>that's a real PITA to work with
03:39:28  <Gunni>lol
03:39:35  <FearTheCowboy>I'll probably remove the c:\apps before the end of june.
03:39:41  * Gunnihates spaces in paths, oh and capital letters
03:39:42  <FearTheCowboy>it's just a symlink anyway.
03:40:12  <FearTheCowboy>although on XP I'll probably put in a c:\programdata symlink to c:\documents....\...
03:40:21  <FearTheCowboy>just so I don't have to diddle with that.
03:40:23  <Gunni>hehe
03:40:32  <Gunni>isn't xp at eol?
03:40:47  <Gunni>i'd just stop supporting imo
03:40:55  <Gunni>but that's just me :P
03:41:16  <FearTheCowboy>Well, in reality, it's Server 2003 that I care more about.
03:41:20  <FearTheCowboy>XP is just the same as that.
03:41:24  <Gunni>ah
03:41:44  <FearTheCowboy>and frankly, dropping 2k3 isn't so hard, but It's not a big deal to make it work with that so... meh.
03:42:22  <Gunni>btw, the installer, auto installing like that, it's kinda, ... virusy
03:42:43  <Gunni>i just elevate it and boom it says it's installed and the install button isn't availible
03:43:15  <FearTheCowboy>Well, the installer really won't need to be installed seperately, it bootstraps when you install *any* package.
03:43:30  <FearTheCowboy>just, the package for itself, well, it needs itself before it can show the window.
03:43:38  <FearTheCowboy>so, it has to install itself first.
03:43:41  <Gunni>lol
03:43:44  <FearTheCowboy>really, you won't be installing that directly.
03:43:55  <Gunni>circular dependencies, gotta love em
03:44:13  <FearTheCowboy>grab the file from http://coapp.org/devtools and run that , and you'll see what it's supposed to do.
03:44:28  * piscisaureus_joined
03:44:39  <FearTheCowboy>(which is, get to that window and let you install the product)
03:45:05  <Gunni>ahh i see
03:45:08  <Gunni>looks nice :P
03:45:16  <FearTheCowboy>Thanks :)
03:45:25  <Gunni>i like the look of it all, just needs pakages, loads of em
03:45:41  <FearTheCowboy>we'll have quite a lot next week.
03:45:42  <Gunni>like installing 20 different versions of stuff
03:45:47  <Gunni>not that i'd do that though
03:46:11  <Gunni>though i'm sure .net will do that, eventually, right?
03:46:35  <FearTheCowboy>it already does :)
03:46:57  <Gunni>meh true
03:47:07  <Gunni>sxs dir is a forest on windows
03:47:27  <FearTheCowboy>it's best not to look in there ;)
03:47:58  <Gunni>i had to, once, corrupted library, just moved it to a subdir, and got another version in one of the other folders, boom worked
03:48:34  <FearTheCowboy>well, with coapp libraries, it's a breeze to remove a specific version. :)
03:48:43  <Gunni>yeah windows fails at that
03:49:11  <FearTheCowboy>not for long
03:49:27  <Gunni>you think microsoft will use this for sxs's
03:49:27  <Gunni>?
03:50:27  <FearTheCowboy>Well, that's a good question. I have a meeting with one of the techincal fellows for Windows 9 this month; I spoke with him a bit back and he thought that we were on the right track.
03:50:29  <Gunni>i mean, i know they supported it somehow
03:50:43  <FearTheCowboy>yeah, it works, but the tools suck.
03:50:50  <FearTheCowboy>that's where this comes in.
03:51:02  <FearTheCowboy>SxS is a snap for us.
03:51:13  <Gunni>oh snap windows 9 already, really......
03:51:34  * Gunnihas a firefox breeze right over him
03:51:48  <Gunni>oops just missed another major version ;D
03:51:57  <FearTheCowboy>Yeah. Well, Win8 is just around the corner.
03:52:10  <FearTheCowboy>Release Preview is out what, a week or two from now?
03:52:13  <Gunni>yeah i've been quite negative about all that
03:52:26  <Gunni>not using a tablet and all that
03:52:30  <FearTheCowboy>Actually, I've been using the latest builds, it's a lot better than it was.
03:52:46  <Gunni>is it less tablet'y?
03:53:01  <Gunni>or touch screen'y
03:53:02  <FearTheCowboy>I'm not a big fan of the tablet crap, but it has it's place.
03:53:10  <FearTheCowboy>it's less of a pain to use, that's for sure.
03:53:10  <Gunni>not on my desktop
03:53:24  <Gunni>but hey, i'm a cli fan
03:53:33  <FearTheCowboy>really, for all I see it's just a different start menu.
03:53:38  <Gunni>if there's a cli for it, that's where i'm at
03:53:38  <FearTheCowboy>me too;
03:53:58  <FearTheCowboy>http://fearthecowboy.com/stuff/tmp-2012-05-20-053423-15740002.png
03:54:05  <FearTheCowboy>that's my current desktop
03:54:20  <Gunni>oh... fuck
03:54:26  * Gunniwants that many screns
03:54:29  <Gunni>screens*
03:54:33  <FearTheCowboy>lol
03:54:50  <FearTheCowboy>Yeah, that's my home PC. I work remotely alot of the time. My work PC only has 6
03:55:03  <Gunni>"only"
03:55:06  <FearTheCowboy>:D
03:55:07  <Gunni>i have two ;D
03:55:38  <Gunni>only thing i have a lot of (according to most people i tell) is ram, 24 gigs
03:55:44  <FearTheCowboy>I have 32
03:55:52  <Gunni>yeah i plan to get 128 next upgrae
03:55:54  <Gunni>upgrade
03:55:57  <FearTheCowboy>not counting the 4 gigs on my video cards ;)
03:56:02  <Gunni>lol
03:56:44  <FearTheCowboy>holy cow. I've added 48089 lines of code to the project in the last 30 days.
03:56:49  <FearTheCowboy>no wonder I'm exhausted.
03:56:50  <Gunni>wow
03:56:56  <jgmdev>you guys have super computers 0_0
03:57:00  <Gunni>lol
03:57:07  <Gunni>i think 24 is too little btw
03:57:12  <Gunni>i'm filling it constantly
03:57:36  <jgmdev>only have 4 and I never use them all
03:57:47  <jgmdev>unless I launch a virtual machine or something like that
03:58:57  <jgmdev>the maximum parallel builds I can do with make is 5 make -j 5 :D if more than that my system becomes unstable
03:59:01  <Gunni>FearTheCowboy btw your "documentation" is very X'y :P
03:59:22  <Gunni>-j 9 ftw
04:00:56  <FearTheCowboy>Well, that's open source... I could either write all the docs, or write the code.
04:01:05  <Gunni>hehehe
04:01:25  <Gunni>btw, this only fetches pre-built pakages, right?
04:01:35  <Gunni>or can it get and compile source if provided?
04:01:46  <FearTheCowboy>we have build tools that can build from the shallow forks.
04:02:01  <FearTheCowboy>but the package manager just installs compiled packages
04:02:33  <Gunni>oh yes the update client looks somewhat familiar...
04:02:40  <Gunni>can't quite put my finger on it ;)
04:03:08  <Gunni>kidding, it's good that it's familiar
04:03:30  <Gunni>does it have a little bit more verbose errors than wu?
04:03:40  <Gunni>i hope it will
04:03:46  <FearTheCowboy>it doesn't have stupid errors ;)
04:03:54  <FearTheCowboy>really, it should tell you what's wrong.
04:03:58  <FearTheCowboy>no 0x84583494
04:03:59  <FearTheCowboy>crap
04:04:05  <Gunni>no like wu, error code 1234 link to microsoft and nothing there
04:04:10  <Gunni>good
04:04:14  * FearTheCowboylikes the *idea* of WU but not the execution.
04:04:18  <Gunni>hehehe
04:04:27  <FearTheCowboy>hmm. we do have to write some troubleshooting docs tho.
04:04:38  <FearTheCowboy>and the online help
04:04:40  <Gunni>ofcourse
04:04:51  <jgmdev>this seems like a project that microsoft will buy or sponsor with some millions :D
04:04:57  <FearTheCowboy>LOL
04:05:03  <FearTheCowboy>I, uh work for Microsoft.
04:05:10  <FearTheCowboy>But, I still own the code.
04:05:20  <Gunni>yeah i read about that
04:05:22  <FearTheCowboy>they pay me to work on this full time, and I keep the copyright.
04:05:28  <Gunni>that's epix
04:05:30  <Gunni>epic*
04:05:33  <FearTheCowboy>Yeah. I know. :)
04:05:37  <Gunni>so epic
04:05:43  <jgmdev>mmm I see, nice
04:05:54  <Gunni>microsoft + open source = ???
04:06:00  <FearTheCowboy>It was also 8 months of work to get the lawyers to sign off on it all :)
04:06:01  <Gunni>used to be like fire and brimstone
04:06:08  <FearTheCowboy>Not so much anymore.
04:06:29  <Gunni>btw does this use "mirrors" or does every pakage supply it's own download uri?
04:07:07  <FearTheCowboy>oh, we have a CDN that's peer'd world wide. publishers can also put their own repositories up too.
04:07:16  <Gunni>ah k
04:07:24  <FearTheCowboy>but if you make a signed package, you can add it to my repo by just uploading it.
04:07:37  <Gunni>k
04:07:47  <Gunni>so no "mirrors" like most linux pakage systems do it
04:08:03  <FearTheCowboy>no, but there's nothing stopping you from doing that.
04:08:09  <Gunni>heh
04:08:19  <FearTheCowboy>but, I have truely unlimited bandwidth, and the Azure CDN delivers the pkgs.
04:08:22  * piscisaureus_quit (Quit: ~ Trillian Astra - www.trillian.im ~)
04:08:26  <Gunni>nice
04:08:43  <FearTheCowboy>pretty much gigabit nodes *everywhere*
04:08:44  <Gunni>it's just, i live in iceland for example, and all downloads out of the country are metered
04:08:57  <Gunni>so mirrors of everything in-country are a must for most things
04:09:17  <Gunni>and nobody has mirrors in iceland *sadface*
04:09:18  <FearTheCowboy>it'd be pretty easy to mirror it; the repository service could easily be modified to do that.
04:09:34  <Gunni>cool
04:09:59  <FearTheCowboy>well, we work pretty hard to keep our packages pretty tight in size too.
04:10:03  <jgmdev>I got to know about this project by aurora, she told me about adding wxPHP to the coapp repository
04:10:04  <FearTheCowboy>so, that should help.
04:10:08  <Gunni>yeah i read about that
04:10:31  <FearTheCowboy>ah. Yeah, we're gonna have a nice PHP build in the next month.
04:10:46  <FearTheCowboy>after that, adding in packages for extensions should be easy.
04:10:56  <Gunni>but it's for windows, nobody runs servers on windows *hint* *hint*
04:11:26  <jgmdev>wxphp is an extension to develop gui using php no web server
04:11:41  <jgmdev>also theres php-gtk
04:11:46  <Gunni>i mean, windows for desktop use is awesome, but linux owns servers imo
04:11:47  <FearTheCowboy>Yeah, elizabeth is a big php-gtk fan :)
04:11:51  <jgmdev>and php-qt
04:14:44  <Gunni>so, how's working at ms?
04:15:01  <FearTheCowboy>six years, so far so good. Actually, it's really nice.
04:15:31  <Gunni>i've always been curious, but what in-house revision control is used?
04:15:40  <Gunni>or is it a secret?
04:15:45  <FearTheCowboy>Well, depends on the team.
04:15:59  <Gunni>i've heard stories of it being hell'ish
04:16:24  <FearTheCowboy>in days past source depot was really big (it's a custom fork of perforce from years ago) but these days a lot of teams use TFS or .... git.
04:16:36  <Gunni>yay for git
04:16:53  <madewokherd>gah, too much to read
04:16:57  <FearTheCowboy>lol
04:17:06  <madewokherd>I had gtk running today
04:17:23  <madewokherd>via coapp (before the rapture happened)
04:17:38  <FearTheCowboy>lol
04:18:10  <Gunni>rapture, i didn't notice it
04:18:19  <Gunni>guess i've been in hell all along
04:20:56  <FearTheCowboy>well, it's about 9:20 here... I've been at it since about 6am this morning, with only about an hour stop for supper. I think I'm gonna go crash.
04:21:09  <Gunni>gnite
04:21:25  * FearTheCowboychanged nick to FtC-Zzzzzzzzzzz
04:21:29  <Gunni>i'll stick around, this project has potential imo
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04:25:03  <madewokherd>oh, I forgot to mention a technical problem to ftc, probably for the best..
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09:55:36  <Gunni>for signing pakages, do i need to use a proper signing key or can i use... like PGP keys?
09:56:55  * _Andrewquit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
10:06:57  <Gunni>how do applications know what the latest installed version of something is, f.ex if i were to update to a binary compatible pakage but ofcourse a different build version, how should the application find the one to use?
10:27:09  <ender`>you need a valid authenticode certificate
10:31:59  * [[zzz]]joined
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10:50:22  <Gunni>gr8, i have one but it's expensive to have
10:50:36  <Gunni>will prob discourage adoption
11:02:36  <ender`>you can get free certificate from certum, and it's planned that coapp will ship ca-cert CA, to also allow those
11:02:53  <Gunni>yeah i noticed, but that has it's own issues too
11:04:34  <Gunni>the authenticode really bites this, hard
11:05:08  <Gunni>i've always preferred pgp for anything not website'y
11:06:56  <ender`>pgp doesn't integrate into windows/SxS
11:07:32  <Gunni>i know that... that's the problem
11:08:50  <Gunni>what's the worst that happens, someone makes a bad pakage, it does a lil bit of damage, key/repo blacklisted, right?
11:09:14  <Gunni>put a fat warning when adding repos ?
11:09:34  <ender`>since coapp is built around SxS, you can't get around authenticode requirement
11:10:16  <Gunni>authenticode is just to make sure we're not running unsigned binaries and warning if we do, right?
11:11:30  <ender`>with SxS it's also to ensure you're loading the exact library you're expecting
11:12:34  <Gunni>hm, good point, it signs the file itself and windows checks it onload
11:12:36  <Gunni>right?
11:13:18  <Gunni>is there anything that prevents a service(read coapp) from creating it's own that kinda triggers?
11:13:27  <ender|>windows loads the file according to it's strongname (which is protected by signature)
11:14:16  <ender|>(meaning: no more problems with incompatible library versions in System32)
11:15:06  <Gunni>you mean this C:\windows\winsxs (beautiful?) folder?
11:15:59  <ender`>yes
11:16:35  <Gunni>it's quite chaotic, but as i understood it coapp used the same methods as winsxs but not actually winsxs, is that wrong?
11:17:11  <ender`>it uses winsxs
11:17:19  <Gunni>oh
11:19:35  <Gunni>how have others (read linux) solved this?
11:19:50  <Gunni>i notice cabal (for haskell) can have multiple versions of stuff installed
11:19:59  <Gunni>noticed*
11:21:12  <Gunni>maybe that's wrong though
11:21:32  <ender`>you usually have several library versions with different names installed
11:21:54  <Gunni>yes that's what i meant, isn't that the same with coapp?
11:22:25  <Gunni>it installs them to a directory named someapp-x64-1.3.1234.0
11:22:32  <Gunni>or alike, i read that somewhere i think
11:23:00  <ender`>no - it relies on SxS, which is similar, but not the same
11:23:13  <Gunni>oh
11:23:28  <Gunni>one might think the directory solution might be simpler but maybe it's just me
11:24:33  <ender`>that doesn't protect you when somebody sticks an ancient version of zlib1.dll in system32
11:25:06  <Gunni>i meant without relying on winsxs but a new kind of sxs
11:25:42  <ender`>like i said, that doesn't protect you when an incompatible library is in system32
11:25:58  <Gunni>it's just that i can't see this gain traction anywhere (especcially open source) if it requires authenticode certificates
11:26:24  <Gunni>it might just be me though
11:26:59  <ender`>i've been signing my releases with authenticode since XP SP2 was released
11:28:06  <Gunni>what if this "new sxs" ignored windows directory alltogether and only used coapps sxs (no idea how to implement sxs btw) coapp could then take care of verifying and finding the best to use(?)
11:28:21  <Gunni>payed or annoying registration ones?
11:28:57  <ender`>you'd need to rewrite the PE loader to be able to do that
11:29:37  <Gunni>are there no "extension fields" or alike?
11:29:57  * [[zzz]]changed nick to [[zz]]
11:30:38  <ender`>where?
11:30:46  <Gunni>in the pe format?
11:31:18  <ender`>you'd need a custom loader to make any use of them
11:31:40  <Gunni>damn
11:31:47  <Gunni>guessing that's not trivial
11:33:20  <Gunni>not nowing how that works though, if the app was installed through coapp, could coapp not just become the loader?
11:33:29  <Gunni>if windows allows that
11:34:16  <ender`>it would be a lot of work
11:34:25  <Gunni>yeah true
11:34:53  <Gunni>just a question if it would be worth it...
11:35:08  <ender`>(and you'd basically need to replace all exe's with a custom loader)
11:36:07  <Gunni>could just aswell be a exe that unpacks an executing enviroment in ram, but that could be annoying/slow/resource-hoggy
11:36:32  <Gunni>i don't even, this has gotten beyond me, i just want away from authenticode
11:37:37  <ender`>you need authenticode for anybody that's using IE9 to download files anyway
11:37:54  <Gunni>people still use ie?
11:38:14  <Gunni>kidding, but it does pop up though?
11:38:27  <Gunni>just with a warning if i recall correctly
11:39:05  <ender`>nope. it gives you the option to delete the file, and hides keep under a more button
11:39:21  <Gunni>lol
11:39:24  <ender`>(and won't let you run the file directly)
11:39:26  <Gunni>that's just being annoying
11:39:34  <Gunni>another reason not to use ie
11:39:34  <ender`>which is a very good thing
11:39:55  <ender`>windows 8 will do the same for files downloaded with other browsers
11:40:15  <Gunni>i'm sure someone will fix that
11:40:34  <ender`>you can fix it by signing the file
11:40:58  <Gunni>by buying a very expensive certificate or going through very un-usable polish websites?
11:41:05  <ender`>we've had far fewer problems with users running random programs since they were upgraded to IE9
11:42:09  <ender`>it's slightly annoying for power users, but it's a great deterrant for malware
11:42:42  <Gunni>and being a power user, i disapprove
11:43:02  <ender`>i don't
11:43:24  <Gunni>i mean, it can be disabled, system wide, right?
11:43:24  <ender`>had to clean way too many computers that got infected with malware
11:43:38  <ender`>no idea - i never looked into it
11:43:59  <Gunni>i don't even try nowadays, backup and format, no exceptions if you want my help
11:44:22  <Gunni>most of my friends get the hint and stop
11:44:30  <Gunni>stop getting viruses i mean
11:44:43  <ender`>i'm not dealing with friends. i'm dealing with clients
11:48:17  <Gunni>hm, i just clicked an unsigned file i made a while back in ie9
11:48:24  <Gunni>got run, save, save as and cancel
11:48:36  <Gunni>oh there it is
11:48:55  <Gunni>found a run anyway though
11:51:36  <ender|>if the file was downloaded enough, it could have gotten on the whitelist
11:51:54  <Gunni>heh not this file
11:52:11  <Gunni>i clicked actions -> arrow down -> run anyway
12:19:17  <Gunni>how much does it actually cost to create a trusted root certificate that microsoft would trust?
12:19:32  <Gunni>or is it just the infrastructure that is so expensive?
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