00:00:32  <FearTheCowboy>Yeah, the Windows team can be like that.
00:00:48  <FearTheCowboy>hmm.
00:00:54  <dmex>I do know there were alot of arguments between teams over those few months
00:00:58  <FearTheCowboy>still, a lot of APIs don't have a managed equivalent
00:01:12  <dmex>mostly thanks to higher ups on the MSDN teams getting involved
00:01:26  * dmexstill has those emails :)
00:02:34  <dmex>if you have the msdn style set to classic view, you can still see me on the top ten contributors: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/default.aspx
00:04:29  <dmex>another PITA, I can't edit anything I've already posted like the ITaskbarList posts
00:04:59  <dmex>I got a few defs wrong on those
00:06:45  <dmex>the other thing I noticed, not one of those MSDN posts show up on my MSDN profile
00:06:46  <dmex>http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/profile/dmex/
00:06:48  <dmex>vs
00:06:51  <dmex>http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/user-225743.aspx
00:07:06  <dmex>they show up for others
00:07:55  * dmexfeels like they don't like me over there much
00:11:30  <dmex>http://www.killsometime.com/videos/8236/Most-Epic-Rant-Ever
00:17:18  <FearTheCowboy>Hmm. Looks like Outercurve's two GSoC slots are going to be Women. (if they both accept).
00:17:30  <FearTheCowboy>Blows the hell out of the statistics :)
00:23:59  <dmex>there was a new story a few days ago about the lack of women developers
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02:38:41  <auroraeosrose>that's awesome
02:39:10  <auroraeosrose>as a female in dev.... there are an awful lot more of you ;)
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13:03:08  <ender|>hah, i was told to contact MSDN support because the local MS activation center has no idea how to activate terminal server for MSDN subscription
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15:57:11  <auroraeosrose>virmitio: I can haz this doc?
15:57:12  <auroraeosrose>http://coapp.org/developers/ptk.html
15:57:18  <auroraeosrose>where are the docs too
15:57:29  * Scotisis no longer away : Gone for 16 hrs 19 mins 20 secs
15:57:30  <auroraeosrose>the cert breakage was because the original cert was done as non-admin
15:57:48  <auroraeosrose>definitely need to add "sdk command line as admin" to instructions
15:57:54  <virmitio>auroraeosrose: use this one instead at the moment --> http://coapp.org/reference/ptk.html
15:58:31  <auroraeosrose>does it work? hehe
15:58:57  <virmitio>well, it's at least closer to correct than a blank page
15:59:49  <auroraeosrose>LOL
15:59:51  <virmitio>though I'm pretty sure that that doc is from many versions ago and is missing at least a half-dozen new command/rule options
15:59:54  <auroraeosrose>getting somewhere....
16:00:17  <auroraeosrose>yeah - which current packages has the best examples for a good buildinfo file?
16:00:52  * virmitiowishes he had time to build a set of heavily documented mock-up .buildinfo and .autopkg files to show the "right" way to do this...
16:00:59  <virmitio>umm
16:01:51  <virmitio>every package I've made to date has been with the features being freshly added and only half understood, so I've got exactly 0 examples on how to do anything correctly
16:02:08  <virmitio>crap, I need to do that, don't I?
16:02:51  <dmex>Yes
16:03:04  <virmitio>I'll need to review some of my notes from FearTheCowboy and work up a few samples as quick as I can
16:03:19  <dmex>I for one volunteer virmitio
16:03:59  <virmitio>I actually just started making a mass-consumption boilerplate for .autopkg files, but that'll be another hour or so
16:04:16  <virmitio>longer if I drop it to make a .buildinfo primer
16:04:44  <dmex>I wouldn't mind a desktop wizard to automate the creation
16:05:30  <dmex>e.g. most common stuff in the wizard, advanced stuff can be done manually(??)
16:05:48  <Scotis>when you guys are writing docs - it would probably be a good idea to say what version of the tool it is based on :)
16:06:32  <dmex>"This documentation is preliminary and is subject to change."
16:07:44  <virmitio>"This documentation is a rough approximation and subject to invalidation."
16:07:58  <dmex>at least thats what I see on just about every MSDN doc these days :P
16:08:14  <Scotis>"This doc is based on Coapp.Devtools v 1.2.0.x"
16:08:50  * dmexjust noticed .buildinfo is json based
16:09:30  <virmitio>Scotis: the biggest problem is that there are features in the current version that are present, but thus far almost wholly untested, and I need to relearn how they're supposed to work in the first place before I can document them
16:09:37  <virmitio>lol
16:09:42  <FearTheCowboy>.buildinfo isn't really json based;
16:09:51  <dmex>ohi
16:10:03  <dmex>looks similar at least
16:10:07  <FearTheCowboy>it's actually an evolution of something resembling a CSS property sheet
16:10:09  <virmitio>dmex: my understanding is that it's really just a crazy evolution from css
16:10:18  <FearTheCowboy>with a couple more constructs.
16:10:23  <dmex>ah
16:10:56  <FearTheCowboy>the really nice part about it, is that when we consume the data; it cascades values nicely similar to CSS.
16:11:12  <dmex>FearTheCowboy: could the cleaner check if an updated version is available?
16:11:20  <FearTheCowboy>of the cleaner?
16:11:29  <FearTheCowboy>that could be done.
16:12:02  <Scotis>virmitio: for features you can't document yet - you can always just say that - at least list the feature so people know it is there - and the docs are coming for it
16:12:43  <FearTheCowboy>dmex -> file an issue for that, so I don't forget it. https://github.com/coapp/coapp/issues
16:12:52  <FearTheCowboy>I don't have time to do that this week
16:13:06  <virmitio>well, quick vote for what I work on first: ptk docs, .buildinfo boilerplate, .autopkg boilerplate
16:13:21  <FearTheCowboy>Although, I'm going to make a clearer walkthru how to build/test devtools so that someone could work on this stuff.
16:13:38  <FearTheCowboy>'cause nothing says I love you like a pull request
16:13:51  <vpovirk>it would really rock if the wizard process went: 1. point wizard to .sln file, 2. select targets from list of .sln outputs, 3. try it and apply any necessary tweaks
16:15:17  <dmex>done: https://github.com/coapp/coapp/issues/32
16:15:22  <virmitio>vpovirk: neither FearTheCowboy nor I have the time to build any gui/wizards until at least RC, and likely not until after release. There's too much else already on the "must do" list
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16:16:13  <vpovirk>of course
16:17:00  <virmitio>nobody has preferences on what I work on first for you folks? (ptk doc, .buildinfo boilerplate, or .autopkg boilerplate)
16:17:37  <dmex>I think .autopkg/.buildinfo would come first
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16:17:48  <vpovirk>you're not the blocker for anything I want, so I don't care
16:17:53  <dmex>least it would let poeple have something to experiment with
16:17:59  <dmex>lol
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16:18:21  <vpovirk>I'm doing fine using other packages as templates
16:18:39  <dmex> <virmitio> every package I've made to date has been with the features being freshly added and only half understood, so I've got exactly 0 examples on how to do anything correctly
16:19:00  * dmexpoints back to templates before doc
16:19:27  <virmitio>that doesn't mean they don't work, just that they're not really the way we *want* them to work eventually
16:20:32  <dmex>well you can document #fantasic_option but without a template or exmaple, it won't help most poeple
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16:22:12  <dmex>I can give an example
16:22:55  <dmex>MSDN documents the various new Explorer uxtheme classes for the Searchbox etc: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb773218(VS.85).aspx
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16:23:15  <dmex>yet nobody has been able to use them
16:24:12  <dmex>whats not documented is SearchBoxComposited only functions if NavbarComposited is used on the control parent
16:26:02  <auroraeosrose>I vote for buildinfo boilerplate
16:26:07  <auroraeosrose>then autopackage boilerplate
16:26:09  <auroraeosrose>then doc it
16:26:21  <auroraeosrose>but for now, show us how it SHOULD be done ;) can figure out the rest ourselves really
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16:33:39  <auroraeosrose1>drink
16:33:44  <auroraeosrose1>stupid thing...
16:33:59  <auroraeosrose1>ok, let's try stealing husband's....
16:34:11  <virmitio>auroraeosrose1 thought you replaced hardware to fix the issue?
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16:50:38  <auroraeosrose>I am an evil, evil person
16:50:49  <auroraeosrose>I stole my husband's wireless nic
16:50:56  <auroraeosrose>let's see if this works better
16:51:12  * virmitiopredicts doom.
16:51:36  <auroraeosrose>well
16:51:38  <auroraeosrose>there was doom
16:51:48  <auroraeosrose>I had both plugged in adn tried to grab drivers
16:51:51  <auroraeosrose>that doesn't work so well
16:51:55  <auroraeosrose>bsod
16:52:52  <auroraeosrose>so downloaded drivers, switched, installed drivers
16:52:53  <auroraeosrose>that worked
16:52:56  <auroraeosrose>(weeee)
16:58:21  <auroraeosrose>http://lists.grok.org.uk/pipermail/full-disclosure/2012-April/086585.html
16:58:26  <auroraeosrose>open ssl makes babies cry
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17:09:26  <ender`>auroraeosrose: what kind of wireless nic?
17:09:43  <auroraeosrose>the crap one is a netgear wnda3100v2
17:09:51  <auroraeosrose>will NOT stay connected
17:09:59  <auroraeosrose>this one is a wusb600n - we'll see
17:10:01  <auroraeosrose>so far it's behaving
17:13:05  <ender`>what's the actual chip one the card?
17:13:29  <auroraeosrose>which one - the evil netgear?
17:13:36  <auroraeosrose>I don't know
17:13:48  <auroraeosrose>this is a cisco/linksys that I'm on now...
17:14:01  <ender`>what OS are you on?
17:14:07  <ender`>Windows or Linux?
17:14:20  <auroraeosrose>windows
17:14:22  <auroraeosrose>64 bit
17:14:27  <auroraeosrose>forums are FULL of the issu
17:14:29  <auroraeosrose>e
17:14:32  <auroraeosrose>of course no solutions
17:14:59  <ender`>the usual solution is to find what's the actual chip on the card, and get the newest driver for that chip. let me find that out
17:16:07  <auroraeosrose>hmmm - has a 2012 driver already... just updated it - it's still stupid
17:16:43  <auroraeosrose>actually I think the new driver made it worse
17:17:30  <ender`>wow, netgear's site sucks - search doesn't work in Opera, and download doesn't work in Chromium and Firefox (but works in Opera)
17:18:26  <auroraeosrose>yeah....
17:18:32  <ender`>(and Linksys' site pops up "This example doesn't work in Opera" on every page)
17:19:01  <auroraeosrose>LOL
17:19:10  <ender`>(twice on some pages)
17:19:13  <auroraeosrose>the linksys is being good - it' sthe netgear that is sucktastic
17:19:22  <auroraeosrose>I had to turn "I'm an old stupid page" to get linksys to work in IE
17:19:24  <ender`>what's your wusb600n version - 1 or 2?
17:19:36  <auroraeosrose>2
17:19:38  <auroraeosrose>both are 2
17:21:04  <ender`>ok, linksys is a ralink, and they have a fairly nice download page for their drivers (you'll want the rt28xx driver)
17:21:27  <ender`>...and netgear are idiots, and i'll have to unpack their installer first
17:22:01  <auroraeosrose>hehe, yes
17:22:08  <auroraeosrose>"I don't want your crappy software - thanks"
17:22:21  <ender`>yay, it's installshit
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17:43:09  <ender`>great, it's yet another installshield version that i don't have tools to open
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17:50:03  <ender`>google suggests that netgeat is broadcom, which sucks, since their drivers are hard to come by
17:50:54  <auroraeosrose>fun
17:51:32  <ender`>i also had Windows automatically download drivers for a broadcom card off Windows Update, and lock up hard as soon as that was installed
17:53:04  <ender`>(i have with great difficulty downloaded drivers for their pci wlan chips, but those don't include usb drivers)
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18:21:28  <saivert>isn't the firmware in the driver when it comes to wifi chips?
18:21:51  <ender`>usually it is
18:23:33  <ender`>but there are only 4 or so wifi chip makers, and every device you buy has one of those chips, with only slightly different package
18:46:35  <dmex>wifi cards are like softmodems, some do all the work on the driver/CPU while some others do all the work onboard (very few)
18:48:47  <dmex>last year when I was working at a site with wireless, the latency was too high, especially for large transfers... so I purchased a dedicated router to connect to the wifi and connected the comp via the lan port
18:49:43  <ender`>most routers just contain the same type of card you have in your computer
18:50:34  <dmex>it seems most PCI/USB wifi drivers are really bad
18:50:59  <dmex>moving that work onto a dedicated router solved so many issues
18:51:27  <dmex>(especially while gaming over that wifi :P)
18:53:21  * dmexponders why he can't 'Step out' of a for loop
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19:08:06  <FearTheCowboy>Good News: We have one more breaking change coming...
19:08:34  <virmitio>yay!
19:09:25  <FearTheCowboy>On a not-too-far away build, I'm changing the format of the package-dependency information in the feed (getting away from the product-code-guids and simply using package names), and we're introducing a few states for feeds (active, passive and ignored)
19:09:35  <FearTheCowboy>active feeds will work just like today
19:09:46  <FearTheCowboy>passive feeds will only be searched for dependencies
19:09:57  <FearTheCowboy>and ignored feeds will only be searched if explicity asked.
19:11:41  <virmitio>autopkg boilerplate is up with descriptions and example imports (because I was already half-done with it when I took the vote)
19:11:55  <FearTheCowboy>and I'm going to put in an option to filter on package stability value, defaulting to 0 (so you won't see packages marked negative numbers without explicitly saying so)
19:15:37  <FearTheCowboy>http://coapp.org/developers/boilerplate-autopkg.html
19:17:00  <FearTheCowboy>hmm. there apparently is a bug in my GFM parser, it's wrecking embedded urls
19:17:57  <virmitio>only inside the code sections. I figured I'd fix the files when I got done with and pushed a .buildinfo boilerplate
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