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00:21:45  <FearTheCowboy>madewokherd -> do structured storage files always start with d0cf11e0 ?
00:21:50  <FearTheCowboy>(do you know?)
00:21:58  <madewokherd>they do not
00:22:03  <FearTheCowboy>:(
00:22:17  <madewokherd>there were previous versions
00:22:30  <madewokherd>with at least one different magic number
00:23:06  <FearTheCowboy>hmm.
00:23:13  <FearTheCowboy>but *now* they do?
00:23:27  <FearTheCowboy>(ie, are all coapp files going to start with 'docfile0' ?
00:24:33  <madewokherd>oh wait
00:24:40  <madewokherd>the magic number is more than 4 bytes
00:24:45  <madewokherd>the first 4 are the same
00:25:08  <madewokherd>so I was wrong, they do
00:25:08  <FearTheCowboy>d0 cf il e0 ? nifty
00:25:22  <madewokherd>il?
00:25:27  <FearTheCowboy>er
00:25:31  <madewokherd>http://source.winehq.org/source/dlls/ole32/storage32.c#L62
00:25:32  <FearTheCowboy>11
00:25:35  <FearTheCowboy> lo
00:25:40  <FearTheCowboy>l
00:29:13  <madewokherd>scroll down a bit from and it's "TransactedDirEntry"
00:29:26  <madewokherd>I wrote that
00:30:34  <madewokherd>it's just as confusing as the comments make it sound
00:40:18  <madewokherd>whose idea was it to put commits/rollbacks inside a filesystem in a file, then put commits/rollbacks inside the commits/rollbacks
00:40:30  <FearTheCowboy>no freakin idea
01:02:37  <Scotis>http://localhostr.com/files/qZ3fZRt/coapp-packages-list-variations.png
01:02:52  <Scotis>put the non-base variations in a 'variations' tab on the base package
01:02:55  <Scotis>thoughts?
01:03:19  <FearTheCowboy>That's actually a lot better :)
01:07:11  <Scotis>how bout this for packages w/ multiple flavors: http://localhostr.com/files/8KmBfq9/coapp-package-list-flavors.png
01:07:58  <FearTheCowboy>then you have to click in the x64/x86 to get more?
01:08:03  <FearTheCowboy>or, just the details
01:09:22  <Scotis>more what? - the '+ details' is for both
01:09:32  <Scotis>err is for all flavors
01:09:39  <FearTheCowboy>what if they don't have the same details?
01:10:09  <Scotis>well - what should happen if the x64 and x86 don't have the same details?
01:10:37  <FearTheCowboy>LOL. I dunno... hmm.
01:11:06  <Scotis>right now it just shows the details of the latest package out of all of those
01:11:12  <Scotis>flavor and arch
01:11:57  <FearTheCowboy>hmm. We should probably do something better with that, but its probably ok for now.
01:12:01  <Scotis>i guess i could have a '+' next to each package link - instead of a '+ details' link for multiple archs/flavors
01:12:22  <FearTheCowboy>that offer more accuracy when we have differences
01:12:59  <madewokherd>there must be a better term than "variations"
01:13:16  <FearTheCowboy>'related'?
01:13:31  <Scotis>yeah let me know what to use - i just used that as a temp term
01:13:43  <madewokherd>I guess they are sort of a family
01:13:47  <madewokherd>except when they're not
01:13:51  <Scotis>lol
01:14:20  <madewokherd>I could see python-something being misinterpreted as part of the python family when it's really just some library
01:14:44  <FearTheCowboy>good point.
01:14:56  <FearTheCowboy>wonder if we should have a bit more metadata for that stuff.
01:15:17  <Scotis>yeah - i guess i should have a list of 'approved' variations - right now it probably should only be 'dev' and 'dev-common'
01:15:29  <FearTheCowboy>propbably.
01:16:15  <madewokherd>I'd add 'common' in there too
01:16:23  <FearTheCowboy>yeah.
01:16:38  <madewokherd>although debian likes to refer to that as 'data'
01:16:45  <FearTheCowboy>I'll get Virmitio to start crafting a list
01:17:08  <madewokherd>I could see myself using 'core' or 'full' or 'all' but I haven't yet
01:17:24  <madewokherd>most likely 'core'
01:17:52  <madewokherd>for cases where a package is broken up but I want just installing it to install the whole thing
01:18:08  <Scotis>ok so add 'core' and 'common' to that list?
01:18:26  <FearTheCowboy>yeah
01:18:34  <Scotis>ok
01:19:15  <Scotis>oh - do you like the flavors being on their own line - instead of being all inline - when there is more than 1?
01:19:39  <FearTheCowboy>I like the seperate lines
01:20:05  <madewokherd>oh, hey, random thing I was wondering about
01:20:46  <madewokherd>is there a way to do the automatic manifest generation thing that autopackage does, but without making a package?
01:20:51  <FearTheCowboy>Teah
01:20:53  <FearTheCowboy>Yeah
01:21:00  <FearTheCowboy>the simplesigner tool does that now too
01:21:04  <madewokherd>oh, cool
01:21:27  <FearTheCowboy>--add-manifest="..." or something. I beleive its in the --help
01:21:58  <madewokherd>I assume I have to point it to the package somehow
01:22:34  <FearTheCowboy> --reference-assembly="zlib, Version=, PublicKeyToken=1e373a58e25250cb, ProcessorArchitecture=x86"
01:22:50  <FearTheCowboy>well, no ... it won't make a connection to the *package* but to the *assembly*
01:23:00  <madewokherd>oh
01:23:07  <madewokherd>that's really all the information from the package it needs?
01:23:13  <FearTheCowboy>yep.
01:23:26  <FearTheCowboy>funny considering how frik'n verbose that XML ends up being.
01:24:01  <madewokherd>heh, I just assumed it'd be really hard to gather all the information
01:24:16  <madewokherd>wait
01:24:25  <madewokherd>how does it know which flavor of zlib?
01:24:45  <FearTheCowboy>hmmm. hmmmmmmmm
01:25:04  <FearTheCowboy>we may have not specified the flavor correctly in the package...
01:25:14  <madewokherd>is that how you're supposed to do it?
01:25:27  <FearTheCowboy>it should be -reference-assembly="zlib[vc10], Version=, PublicKeyToken=1e373a58e25250cb, ProcessorArchitecture=x86"
01:25:48  <madewokherd>and I was using zlib as a template >_<
01:26:07  <FearTheCowboy>without specifying the flavor there'd be no difference between vc9 and vc10
01:26:10  <FearTheCowboy>crap
01:26:54  <madewokherd>I find it really interesting that my main contribution so far seems to be making you say "crap"
01:26:58  <madewokherd>I don't know why that is
01:27:01  <FearTheCowboy>lol
01:27:32  <madewokherd>at least this is easily fixed...... with a breaking change......
01:27:50  <FearTheCowboy>it's not a code breaking change, we have to make new packages tho'
01:27:56  <madewokherd>yep
01:28:13  <madewokherd>which can't upgrade any previous versions
01:28:15  <FearTheCowboy>I'll have to poke Virmitio in the morning and get him to go thru and fix those.
01:28:20  <FearTheCowboy>no, they can't fix older ones.
01:28:28  <FearTheCowboy>lol
01:29:09  <Scotis>there should be a bell you ring each time that happens lol
01:29:17  <madewokherd>and here I was assuming autopackage did some magic to disambiguate them
01:30:11  <FearTheCowboy>maybe we should stop and add flavor metadata in correctly, and then we can make autopackage figure it out for us
01:30:39  <FearTheCowboy>you'd still have to say zlib-[vc1] if you used simplesigner, but not a killer problem
01:31:05  <FearTheCowboy>heck, we *could* even mark the PEBinaries with the flavor so that simplesigner could figure it out too.
01:31:12  <FearTheCowboy>which might not make a bad idea.
01:31:56  * FearTheCowboyhas to run, the wife is home.
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02:03:13  <madewokherd>I don't think I like that idea
02:03:58  <madewokherd>mostly because it makes flavors special, and adds complexity where it doesn't seem to be needed
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14:50:56  <vpovirk>FearTheCowboy: I really think you shouldn't auto-add flavors to assembly names, because it actually removes flexibility from the packaging
14:51:15  <vpovirk>if you did want to replace a previous assembly without a flavor, you wouldn't be able to do that
14:52:44  <auroraeosrose>.... but usually flavors dictate flavors in deps
14:54:42  <vpovirk>also, what if someone wants to put multiple flavors in one package?
14:55:12  <auroraeosrose>.... why would they?
14:55:27  <auroraeosrose>just curious if you have an example of that being feasible
14:55:31  <auroraeosrose>other then - lazy packager ;)
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14:59:40  <FearTheCowboy>No problem, I'll leave out flavors in the manifest generation
15:00:28  <FearTheCowboy>I could see a software publisher that puts multiple flavors in a single package--we've done nothing to this point to prohibit that.
15:00:53  * Scotisis no longer away : Gone for 8 hrs 48 mins 41 secs
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15:02:31  <Scotis>more work on package list: http://localhostr.com/files/DmDD0F3/coapp-package-list-v2.png
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15:02:37  <Scotis>http://localhostr.com/files/DmDD0F3/coapp-package-list-v2.png
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15:02:53  <Scotis>whops - same ss - 1 sec
15:03:00  <FearTheCowboy>LOL
15:03:02  <FearTheCowboy>wonderd about that
15:03:05  <Scotis>http://localhostr.com/files/PlgTyMK/coapp-package-list-v2-details.png
15:03:44  <FearTheCowboy>hmmm. clever
15:04:05  <FearTheCowboy>oh, before I forget, you're going to want to make sure you've got room for the icon
15:04:18  <FearTheCowboy>I'll be fixing that soon..
15:04:28  <FearTheCowboy>(it'll come as a URL)
15:05:03  <Scotis>ok will do - i don't think i'll need to make any changes at this point
15:07:46  <FearTheCowboy>hmm. I'd like to play with that popup model before going live with it.
15:08:12  <FearTheCowboy>maybe I should spin up a testing azure server you can deploy the bits to.
15:10:51  <Scotis>ok - or you could just view it locally on your comp?
15:11:01  <FearTheCowboy>that seems overly complicated... :)
15:11:02  <FearTheCowboy>lol
15:11:04  <Scotis>ha
15:13:50  <Scotis>i'll commit that stuff and then you can checkout my fork
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15:13:54  <FearTheCowboy>ok
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15:24:48  <FearTheCowboy>If I had a dime for every connect/disconnect notice for auroraeosrose1 ...
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15:26:19  <FearTheCowboy>It would be almost as much money as if I had a dime for every connect/disconnect notice for auroraeosrose ...
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15:26:47  <mgdm>she's in the huff now
15:30:28  <Scotis>ok committed here: https://github.com/Scotis/coapp.org
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15:33:35  <FearTheCowboy>auroraeosrose ... in or out.
15:33:59  <auroraeosrose>stupid nic
15:34:04  <auroraeosrose>restarted, we'll see if that helps
15:34:08  <auroraeosrose>driver of doom!
15:34:14  <FearTheCowboy>apple?
15:34:48  <auroraeosrose>nope - netgear + windows
15:35:39  <FearTheCowboy>ah.
15:38:56  <auroraeosrose>known issue with win7 64 bit
15:39:00  <auroraeosrose>you think they'd friggin fix it
15:39:19  <FearTheCowboy>Scotis -> perhaps put a tooltip on the links that says "click to download" or something.
15:39:54  <FearTheCowboy>and change the 'other' tab to 'details'
15:40:28  <FearTheCowboy>I'm kinda mixed on the popup details
15:40:28  <Scotis>ok
15:42:41  <FearTheCowboy>And for the name, could we switch to the 'Package::display name' when it's present?
15:43:11  <Scotis>how's this: http://localhostr.com/files/8qVOwVz/coapp-package-list-modal-changes.png
15:43:31  <FearTheCowboy>500 Internal Server Error
15:43:45  <FearTheCowboy>refreshed a few times and it worked
15:43:48  <Scotis>k
15:43:56  <FearTheCowboy>Yeah. The download button helps alot.
15:44:09  <Scotis>yeah i can use the Package name - 1 sec
15:44:12  <FearTheCowboy>much better
15:53:34  <Scotis>the berkeleydb-dev package name is the same as the berkeleydb one
15:54:11  <FearTheCowboy>hmmm. I'll poke virmitio
15:55:35  <Scotis>k
15:56:07  <vpovirk>I guess that's probably my fault
15:56:22  <vpovirk>wait, no, I didn't add the -dev packages to that
15:56:48  <Scotis>there are berkeleydb-dev packages
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16:06:13  <Scotis>http://localhostr.com/files/jFcOJCv/coapp-package-list-with-package-names.png
16:29:04  <Scotis>thoughts on ss?
16:31:56  <FearTheCowboy>Maybe try a format like:
16:32:20  <FearTheCowboy>hmm.
16:32:24  <FearTheCowboy>it's better.
16:34:00  <FearTheCowboy>hmm.
16:34:32  <FearTheCowboy>I think that's ok
16:42:10  <Scotis>ok - so good?
16:42:18  <FearTheCowboy>Yeah
16:42:30  <Scotis>ok - committing...
16:47:56  <Scotis>done
16:49:55  <FearTheCowboy>can you send a pull request
16:50:56  <Scotis>yes
16:52:14  <Scotis>sent
16:59:24  <FearTheCowboy>it's live!
16:59:45  <Scotis>sweet!
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18:23:44  <FearTheCowboy>Ah, to be a goat...
18:24:04  <auroraeosrose>LOL
18:24:07  <auroraeosrose>I blame mdgm for that
18:24:12  <auroraeosrose>but I was laughing ssoooo hard
18:24:31  <auroraeosrose>mumble mumble
18:24:39  <auroraeosrose>stupid ubuntu, why do you install so much crap by default
18:24:44  <auroraeosrose>I just want a simple desktop
18:24:56  <FearTheCowboy>Ubuntu : Keeping goats happy.
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18:29:09  <ender|>http://eternallybored.org/imgs/cats/CIMG0590.jpg
18:29:30  <auroraeosrose>that looks like a ferret from that view... with a cat head stuck on it ;)
18:29:46  <ender`>yup
18:29:52  <ender`>he's a long kitty :)
18:30:17  <auroraeosrose>my kitty is hiding somewhere... actually I think she found an open window upstairs
18:30:27  <auroraeosrose>loves to lay against the screen
18:30:35  <auroraeosrose>till it falls out and she falls onto the roof
18:30:36  <auroraeosrose>stupid cat
18:30:55  * FearTheCowboyis gonna grab some lunch
18:30:59  <ender`>hah
18:31:20  <ender`>i don't let mine on the roof
18:31:59  <auroraeosrose>there's no "letting" she's just too fat for the screen to hold her
18:32:01  <ender`>they love being on the terrace/balcony
18:32:27  <auroraeosrose>do yours bark at birds? I swear mine thinks she's a dog
18:32:33  <auroraeosrose>hazards of being raised with a dog I guess
18:33:05  <ender`>they more bleat at birds :)
18:33:30  <auroraeosrose>and chase snowflakes... from inside the window?
18:35:01  <ender`>can't really - i live in the attic, and the only vertical windows i have look at the terrace
18:35:26  <ender`>(but there's enough overhang above them that snowflakes don't come near)
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20:55:29  <wwahammy>there is seriously no good way to serialize this data for the restart service in and out
20:55:40  <FearTheCowboy>!
20:56:44  <FearTheCowboy>should we discuss it?
20:57:22  <wwahammy>might not hurt
20:57:45  <FearTheCowboy>https://join.microsoft.com/meet/garretts/Y8F602G9
21:20:14  <virmitio>trying to make these tests build on windows feels like I'm trying to pull a lion's teeth without anesthetics...
21:21:25  <Scotis>so you're telling me it is exciting?
21:22:30  <virmitio>not the word I would have chosen, but I suppose that there are conditions under which it would apply
21:24:11  <virmitio>fun things to know and share: apparently one does not need openssl to build apr, but one does need it to build the tests for apr
21:24:51  <Scotis>that seems very logical to me ;)
21:56:46  <auroraeosrose>heh
21:56:54  <auroraeosrose>actually makes sense in a sick sort of way
22:03:23  <virmitio>auroraeosrose: I'm eager to hear your reasoning on that
22:04:09  <auroraeosrose>https says it all
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22:22:23  <FearTheCowboy>hmm.
22:23:21  <FearTheCowboy>Hmm. there is a collection of small things that encourage breaking binary compatibility in CoApp between the existing version and the next build...
22:23:54  <FearTheCowboy>We can rebuild all the packages again that we have already built...
22:24:19  <FearTheCowboy>but it may be a good idea if we simply do this one more breaking change.
22:24:49  <FearTheCowboy>how important is it for people that we don't break binary compatibility at this point?
22:26:30  <FearTheCowboy>anyone have an opinion?
22:33:02  <FearTheCowboy>hello?
22:33:39  <mgdm>I'm here, but I'm not really able to have an opinion :)
22:52:13  * remy_oquit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7)
23:08:06  <Scotis>FearTheCowboy -> have you heard of Console2?
23:08:29  <FearTheCowboy>Yes.
23:08:33  <FearTheCowboy>Using it for Years;
23:08:42  <FearTheCowboy>however, it's limited on width to the same value
23:08:47  <mgdm>I had this conversation earlier on Twitter
23:08:49  <Scotis>oh really?
23:09:12  <mgdm>yeah, just ranting about how the default console widget thing is terrible
23:09:13  <FearTheCowboy>my console windows can only be 240 chars wide on my display to 1920
23:09:19  <mgdm>I hadn't come across console2 before
23:10:15  <FearTheCowboy>I modified my version a couple years back to support ctrl-mousewheel for resizing the font.
23:10:24  <Scotis>nice
23:10:41  <FearTheCowboy>but, it's such a beast to build (with it's reliance on boost)
23:11:33  <FearTheCowboy>anyway....
23:11:52  <FearTheCowboy>I'm thinking about doing breaking changes...
23:11:59  <Scotis>does powershell have the same limitation?
23:12:21  <FearTheCowboy>the console itself is the limiting factor, not the program (cmd.exe or powershell)
23:12:47  <FearTheCowboy>the console host is the process that both cmd and powershell live in
23:12:53  <Scotis>ah!
23:13:05  <FearTheCowboy>Console2 creates the console host out of the way, and syncs their own buffer to that.
23:13:08  <Scotis>probably something left over from DOS lol
23:13:20  <mgdm>the console host is the bit I have the problem with
23:13:23  <FearTheCowboy>well, probably... but... why?
23:13:29  <FearTheCowboy>Yeah, the console host is a PITA
23:13:34  <mgdm>the cmd.exe command language is terrible too, but that's fixable
23:13:38  <FearTheCowboy>that was inherited from OS/2
23:13:57  <Scotis>i would be suprised if they've touched the console host code in a while
23:13:57  <FearTheCowboy>(the conhost is the evoluton of vio from os/2)
23:14:21  <mgdm>how hard would it be to engineer a replacement? >:-D
23:14:24  <FearTheCowboy>Well, they changed it some in vista (to prevent cross-proc communication security hole) and agian in 7
23:14:40  <FearTheCowboy>conhost would be a near-nightmare to reimplement
23:15:13  <FearTheCowboy>which is why console2 ended up doing the 'create-in-the-background-and-sync' model with it.
23:15:52  <mgdm>yeah, I didn't think anyone would do that through choice
23:16:34  <Scotis>so does powershell bascially just compile into cmd.exe commands?
23:16:50  <mgdm>I don't think so, I just presume it hosts itself inside the same console gadget
23:17:10  <mgdm>a bit like you can have bash or zsh or csh or whatever inside a terminal on *nix
23:17:16  <FearTheCowboy>powershell is a console app, it lives in a consolehost
23:17:24  <FearTheCowboy>cmd.exe is a console app, it lives in a consolehost
23:17:55  <FearTheCowboy>yeah like that
23:18:59  <Scotis>so consolehost basically is the conduit into the kernel for those apps then?
23:19:16  <mgdm>if we could have a console host with sensible copy/paste, better fonts, and maybe tabs, that'd make life a lot more pleasant for me :)
23:19:46  <Scotis>Console2 does most of that - though it still has the width restrictions
23:19:58  <mgdm>(I'm the guy with the Mac at work running a 1080p terminal window pretty much all day every day :)
23:20:15  <FearTheCowboy>Scotis -> mmm; not quite. Console subsystem apps bind to the kernel the same way that gui apps do. they just don't have a UI of their own, and need to display thru the consolehost
23:20:35  <FearTheCowboy>Yeah, console2 is down right invaluable.
23:20:53  <FearTheCowboy>the width limitation is something I didn't realize until today.
23:20:53  <auroraeosrose>boost though
23:20:54  <auroraeosrose>ugh
23:20:54  <mgdm>I'm going to give it a shot tomorrow, though that means booting *shudder* Vista.
23:21:19  <mgdm>I did say I'd try and port Cairo and Pango to Coapp, I better actually get on with it.
23:22:02  <Scotis>FearTheCowboy -> i see
23:22:10  <auroraeosrose>yes
23:22:13  <auroraeosrose>you will
23:22:16  * auroraeosrosewaves hand
23:22:21  <auroraeosrose>you want to do cairo and pango
23:22:30  <mgdm>Your Jedi mind tricks don't work now that I'm one too
23:22:31  <mgdm>or something
23:22:33  <mgdm>:P
23:23:23  <FearTheCowboy>well, unless anyone has a real strong objection, I'm going to force binary compatible change to the coapp engine this week.
23:23:32  * virmitiodecides to poke and prod mgdm mercilessly until Cairo and Pango are done...
23:23:36  <FearTheCowboy>we'll rebuild the existing packages before the end of the week
23:23:43  <mgdm>virmitio: heh
23:23:45  <FearTheCowboy>and post everything at once
23:24:08  <FearTheCowboy>pkt and autopackage won't break source-wise... just some internal details in the engine, really.
23:24:09  <mgdm>virmitio: I might need those VM details back, actually - the machine I had saved them on had a 'wobble'
23:24:12  * stalledquit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
23:28:38  <FearTheCowboy>http://webwit.nl/input/kbsim/
23:28:44  <FearTheCowboy>Now you can work like me!
23:31:26  * ender`quit (Quit: They could not know that this was because Greebo, as a matter of feline pride, would attempt to fight or rape absolutely anything, up to and including a four-horse logging wagon. -- Terry Pratchett: Witches Abroad)
23:53:13  <madewokherd>I guess there's no particular reason to not break old packages except, uh, practice..
23:54:42  * virmitioquit (Quit: Leaving.)
23:54:59  <auroraeosrose>I say I don't care if you break it up unti lthat 1.0 release
23:55:02  <auroraeosrose>then I KEEL YOU
23:55:36  <FearTheCowboy>Well, it's less actually the packages than the ABI between the clients(cli, ptk and autopackage) and the engine itself
23:56:37  <FearTheCowboy>I was going to hold the line, but the work on update/upgrade/trim has caused me to adjust some of the terminology in some of the per-package flags... and I'd like the settings to match the conceptual model :)
23:57:11  <FearTheCowboy>and, the API got a few more parameters on a couple calls, and I had to provide a v1 and v 1.01 overload of the same calls to not break binary compat.
23:57:22  <FearTheCowboy>but if I break it, I can clean up code to remove the cruft.
23:57:47  <madewokherd>now I'm afraid this will delay things
23:57:51  <FearTheCowboy>no...
23:58:00  <FearTheCowboy>it just makes it easier to clean up a few things.
23:58:28  <FearTheCowboy>the change is done already; I have about 50-60 more lines to code in the engine, and then some testing to do.
23:58:49  <FearTheCowboy>and a bugfix the administrator permission thng
23:59:40  <madewokherd>[18:21:52] <auroraeosrose> you want to do cairo and pango <-- fine, I'll try to work on more relevant things (not necessarily those two, but gtk has other deps)